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Graendal on Semirhage and Demandred... Shannow Send a noteboard - 04/02/2011 09:23:50 PM
dangerous of the triad (Demandred, Semirhage, Mesaana). One more reason I've always assumed the Forsaken make up a very small % of the top level of strength (10-15%) and on any given day any of them could take another down.

Graendal was willing to face Lanfear in TFOH despite being "2 levels" lower ... at this strength range it's all in tiny increments. Certainly those differences seem vast to the AS level women because they see things from a different perspective ... it's like seeing a 50 story building from the ground and a 60 story building ... you know one seems considerably taller, but in reality it's not that big of a difference. And we've yet to hear a direct strength comparison from the Forsaken ... they always fall back on skill level in considering facing each other.


It is clear that Demandred has been the leader of the Alliance of Three all along. For Graendal to only notice it by Book 11 is a total stuff up by Sanderson.

In truth, Sanderson's depiction of Graendal in this scene does her an injustice. She appears to only notice Demandred as her main rival for the Nae'blis title at this point in time - tGS. That is inconsistent with her finely tuned observational skills demonstrated by RJ in the series up to that point.


Even her justifications for her changing opinion within that chapter make no sense.

One moment she says Demandred is dangerous because he is ice cold, and the next she says he is dangerous because rage could drive him to act more irrationally than Semirhage. Her statements are contradictory, and her internal monologue makes no sense. Sanderson totally botched that chapter.

That scene is written as if Graendal is weighing up Semirhage nd Demandred for the first time ever. As if she didn't have the entire War of Power to compare their strengths and skills.

In Crown of Swords Graendal realises that Sammael is starting to lose his grip on events and considers for a brief moment to throw herself on Demandred's mercy. She then rejects this option, because "Demandred has no mercy".

Why would she need his mercy, if she isn't even sure if he is more dangerous than Semirhage? Why not then consider throwing herself on Semirhage's mercy?

No, the pecking order among the Forsaken is pretty clear.

Ishamael, Demandred and Lanfear are the most dangerous from a physical perspective, followed by Sammael, Graendal and Semirhage. In that order.

The rest fall outside of the top six, with people like Modghedien lurking in the shadows so as not to expose herself to an opportunity to be attacked by someone so much stronger than herself as the top Forsaken.

To quote Graendal, when comparing Cyndane to Moghedien: "Where had she (the Spider) found someone (Cyndane) SO MUCH stronger than herself?"

Clearly there is a huge gap between Cyndane and Moghedien. And Lanfear is stronger still.

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Proof that Asmodean's effective One Power strength is greater than Moghedien's... Shannow - 03/02/2011 03:22:42 PM 2298 Views
Huh? fionwe1987 - 03/02/2011 04:08:29 PM 1237 Views
Why do you deliberately misquote the text? Shannow - 03/02/2011 04:12:50 PM 1254 Views
You're deliberately being obtuse... as usual... fionwe1987 - 03/02/2011 10:07:09 PM 1188 Views
Right. So Egwene can shield someone of Egwene's own strength, plus Elayne, AND weave a dozen flows.. Shannow - 03/02/2011 10:26:27 PM 1191 Views
fionwe1987 - 03/02/2011 10:46:40 PM 1061 Views
No. Egwene is very close to her full potential at the time... Shannow - 03/02/2011 11:44:20 PM 1165 Views
Bullshit... fionwe1987 - 04/02/2011 12:39:42 AM 1038 Views
Unbiased view... Nargs - 04/02/2011 01:46:40 AM 1175 Views
The WoT Board in a nutshell. *NM* Ghavrel - 04/02/2011 02:34:32 AM 561 Views
Yeah, thats unbiased... *NM* fionwe1987 - 04/02/2011 05:23:17 PM 547 Views
Don't agree Sidious - 04/02/2011 08:30:02 AM 1152 Views
Fair comment, but my question then is: Shannow - 04/02/2011 11:26:25 AM 1037 Views
I think the WO and Moiraine also Force Egwene as they know what's coming and need her darius_sedai - 04/02/2011 03:55:46 PM 1042 Views
It is specifically stated that Egwene was forced by the rigours of the damane training... Shannow - 04/02/2011 05:15:20 PM 1048 Views
Egwene has been continually forced... fionwe1987 - 04/02/2011 06:02:08 PM 983 Views
The direct quotes contradict you... Shannow - 04/02/2011 06:23:03 PM 1085 Views
actually the quote substantiates that Egwene is only slightly stronger than Moiraine in TSR darius_sedai - 04/02/2011 07:51:10 PM 1091 Views
here ya go they were all Forced darius_sedai - 04/02/2011 07:59:40 PM 957 Views
Nope... fionwe1987 - 04/02/2011 08:23:00 PM 1042 Views
I think you may have misused the term - RJ meant 'effective' to mean something a bit different. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 03/02/2011 04:40:41 PM 1212 Views
Re: I think you are mistaking what RJ meant effective to mean. Shannow - 03/02/2011 05:30:15 PM 1132 Views
Re: I think you are mistaking what RJ meant effective to mean. Master Ablar - 03/02/2011 05:45:30 PM 1131 Views
Re: I think you are mistaking what RJ meant effective to mean. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 03/02/2011 06:31:34 PM 1055 Views
Re: I think you are mistaking what RJ meant effective to mean. Kieran - 03/02/2011 07:06:50 PM 1080 Views
Re: I think you are mistaking what RJ meant effective to mean. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 03/02/2011 07:17:25 PM 1067 Views
We still don't know who is effectively stronger, and not sure if Asmo was equal to Rand by the end. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 03/02/2011 06:58:14 PM 889 Views
See my post above, I would say Asmo is Weaker than Moggy... *NM* Kieran - 03/02/2011 07:10:07 PM 571 Views
I'm not certain either way. I think it all depends on the terms being used. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 03/02/2011 07:22:01 PM 1111 Views
Effective strength means who can make the bigger fireball, the stronger shield, the thicker balefire Shannow - 03/02/2011 07:42:17 PM 958 Views
I still hold to the point that your analogy is false. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 04/02/2011 04:20:05 PM 1020 Views
My impression of your view, in general, is that... Shannow - 03/02/2011 07:33:37 PM 989 Views
How... fionwe1987 - 03/02/2011 10:15:34 PM 943 Views
If Nynaeve could do to Egwene and Elayne what Rand did to them, then I rest my case... Shannow - 03/02/2011 10:36:46 PM 1101 Views
Re: If Nynaeve could do to Egwene and Elayne what Rand did to them, then I rest my case... fionwe1987 - 03/02/2011 10:50:57 PM 1057 Views
Got you now... Shannow - 03/02/2011 11:32:49 PM 1015 Views
You're clearly delusional... fionwe1987 - 04/02/2011 12:59:26 AM 1019 Views
You sound ridiculous Nargs - 04/02/2011 02:05:18 AM 1042 Views
Re: You sound ridiculous Kieran - 04/02/2011 02:23:50 AM 1099 Views
Ok... Nargs - 04/02/2011 04:13:34 PM 966 Views
Elayne is not stronger than most AS at this point in the books darius_sedai - 04/02/2011 08:14:41 PM 996 Views
Where on earth does it say Nynaeve could do to Egwene and Elayne what Rand did? darius_sedai - 04/02/2011 08:06:48 PM 1061 Views
Re: How... Sidious - 04/02/2011 08:34:21 AM 1158 Views
They're very close now... fionwe1987 - 04/02/2011 05:46:48 PM 1120 Views
That is unfortunately not true... Shannow - 04/02/2011 06:02:34 PM 1108 Views
It is... fionwe1987 - 04/02/2011 06:05:05 PM 955 Views
Re: It is... Sidious - 04/02/2011 06:31:32 PM 1208 Views
Yup... fionwe1987 - 04/02/2011 08:20:33 PM 980 Views
Semirhage hated Lanfear, but dared not act against her strength... Shannow - 04/02/2011 08:29:24 PM 1372 Views
yet Graendal showed a lot of respect for Semirhage ... even assumed she was the most darius_sedai - 04/02/2011 08:53:05 PM 1051 Views
Graendal on Semirhage and Demandred... Shannow - 04/02/2011 09:23:50 PM 1311 Views
No Sidious - 04/02/2011 11:10:00 PM 1090 Views
CLAPS *NM* darius_sedai - 05/02/2011 05:15:21 AM 599 Views
We will just have to disagree on this one... Shannow - 05/02/2011 06:57:36 AM 973 Views
Indeed Sidious - 05/02/2011 07:38:10 AM 972 Views
I agree with you ... especially abou the perpective issue darius_sedai - 05/02/2011 03:00:58 PM 1068 Views
I agree with you here darius_sedai - 04/02/2011 08:19:35 PM 980 Views
I don't think that's true.. fionwe1987 - 04/02/2011 08:21:38 PM 922 Views
the evidence is that Aginor burnt out trying to channel the Eye and Rand didn't darius_sedai - 04/02/2011 08:23:50 PM 889 Views
Considering that Asmodean and Rand were using a sa'angreal... ˥ɐ ʎpu∀ɹ - 04/02/2011 04:55:03 AM 1194 Views
I think this is a no brainer Sidious - 04/02/2011 08:22:00 AM 1138 Views
The nice fact which is proven is the magnitude of the gap between Moghedien and Semirhage... Shannow - 04/02/2011 11:32:00 AM 960 Views
Nynaeve could be at 90% or 80% when she faced Moghedien we have no way of measuring that darius_sedai - 04/02/2011 08:42:03 PM 957 Views
Disagree... Shannow - 04/02/2011 08:51:55 PM 1040 Views
spin it all you like... I'm tired of this arument and your creative quoting. darius_sedai - 04/02/2011 08:56:14 PM 934 Views
The creative quoter is Fionwe, not me. You quote correctly, but your interpretations are way off... Shannow - 04/02/2011 09:05:43 PM 912 Views
Nynaeve has grown in strength, but she started nearly as strong as Moiraine! darius_sedai - 05/02/2011 05:35:05 AM 933 Views
Starting out at Moiraine's strength meant starting out at barely 30% of her full potential... Shannow - 05/02/2011 07:05:46 AM 987 Views
Nynaeve's strength Sidious - 05/02/2011 07:49:07 AM 1029 Views
Agree, Egwene has never been as strong as Nynaeve at any stage. *NM* darius_sedai - 05/02/2011 03:03:25 PM 659 Views
I disagree that Moiraine is 30% of Nynaeve. Much closer to 50% of Nynaeve. EDIT darius_sedai - 05/02/2011 03:02:06 PM 1119 Views
Minor quibbles aside... fionwe1987 - 05/02/2011 04:05:30 PM 1110 Views
Agreed, the exact numbers are arbitrary, I place Egwene a tad higher than you ... EDIT darius_sedai - 05/02/2011 04:30:00 PM 927 Views
Re: Agreed, the exact numbers are arbitrary, I place Egwene a tad higher than you ... EDIT fionwe1987 - 05/02/2011 06:09:41 PM 1062 Views
shrugs darius_sedai - 05/02/2011 06:46:02 PM 986 Views
Re: shrugs fionwe1987 - 05/02/2011 08:03:37 PM 1013 Views
I don't recall the Merise quote you are refering too and they have not been together in the series darius_sedai - 05/02/2011 09:20:56 PM 915 Views
I'm sorry, I meant the glossary entry... fionwe1987 - 05/02/2011 10:29:46 PM 947 Views
Thanks for clarifying darius_sedai - 05/02/2011 11:12:19 PM 900 Views
Re: Thanks for clarifying fionwe1987 - 06/02/2011 12:42:51 AM 952 Views
fair enough ... I can agree to Cadsuane and Bode both being 70 with Egwene and co at 80 *NM* darius_sedai - 06/02/2011 04:29:49 AM 515 Views
Cool! *NM* fionwe1987 - 06/02/2011 04:18:52 PM 548 Views
Sorry, but here your entire Bell Curve goes up in smoke... Shannow - 06/02/2011 01:13:15 PM 915 Views
In fact, Moiraine is even STRONGER than I postulated in the above post... Shannow - 06/02/2011 01:22:11 PM 1305 Views
well... Sidious - 06/02/2011 02:11:02 PM 1042 Views
Only a separate Bell Curve for the Age of Legends - when the average strength was higher - will work Shannow - 06/02/2011 03:29:49 PM 962 Views
Or, you know, the Aes Sedai aren't a representative sample... *NM* fionwe1987 - 06/02/2011 04:19:22 PM 669 Views
I don't think Strength was higher in the AOL I think there were just more channelers darius_sedai - 06/02/2011 04:50:42 PM 1016 Views
Yup. fionwe1987 - 06/02/2011 05:30:54 PM 926 Views
Trivial darius_sedai - 06/02/2011 06:10:55 PM 947 Views
Uhhh... no... fionwe1987 - 06/02/2011 04:18:19 PM 849 Views
Read these facts slowly, maybe you will grasp the implication then... Shannow - 06/02/2011 04:41:02 PM 1015 Views
you are missing the fact that women like Sharina have no interest in the Tower darius_sedai - 06/02/2011 05:05:10 PM 1027 Views
You equate random exclusions with the deliberate block exclusion of 37.5% weakest women... Shannow - 06/02/2011 05:41:47 PM 975 Views
wrong darius_sedai - 06/02/2011 06:08:20 PM 1060 Views
That is weak logic in the extreme... Shannow - 06/02/2011 06:16:46 PM 950 Views
what I'm saying is that a representative sample of the entire population darius_sedai - 06/02/2011 06:40:51 PM 995 Views
Yes. *NM* fionwe1987 - 06/02/2011 06:47:59 PM 613 Views
Yes. *NM* fionwe1987 - 06/02/2011 06:48:00 PM 530 Views
But you don't prove that the undiscovered women are stronger. They may well be weaker... Shannow - 06/02/2011 07:26:27 PM 847 Views
Amys is far from the strongest WO! fionwe1987 - 06/02/2011 07:37:14 PM 1173 Views
Explain the 1000 women they found in Murandy then... fionwe1987 - 06/02/2011 06:26:46 PM 942 Views
And a 1000 years ago... fionwe1987 - 06/02/2011 06:33:29 PM 976 Views
The only implication I grasped is that you don't grasp math... fionwe1987 - 06/02/2011 06:21:12 PM 1060 Views
Circular reasoning... Shannow - 06/02/2011 07:03:53 PM 1001 Views
No, reasoning based on facts and what RJ said, both of which you ignore... fionwe1987 - 06/02/2011 07:34:21 PM 1254 Views
If you're going to ignore direct quotes, then we may as well stop right now... Shannow - 06/02/2011 08:42:40 PM 1085 Views
Agreed. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 04/02/2011 04:32:05 PM 1056 Views
Agree. *NM* fionwe1987 - 04/02/2011 05:49:05 PM 614 Views
agreed *NM* darius_sedai - 04/02/2011 08:27:22 PM 629 Views
off tangent question: Has Nynaeve yet to reach full potential or did she already after being ... Bookwyrm - 04/02/2011 08:39:29 PM 1068 Views
I think the general concensus is that after the CK she was forced to her full potential darius_sedai - 05/02/2011 03:44:29 PM 998 Views
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