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Graendal on Semirhage and Demandred... Shannow Send a noteboard - 04/02/2011 09:23:50 PM
dangerous of the triad (Demandred, Semirhage, Mesaana). One more reason I've always assumed the Forsaken make up a very small % of the top level of strength (10-15%) and on any given day any of them could take another down.

Graendal was willing to face Lanfear in TFOH despite being "2 levels" lower ... at this strength range it's all in tiny increments. Certainly those differences seem vast to the AS level women because they see things from a different perspective ... it's like seeing a 50 story building from the ground and a 60 story building ... you know one seems considerably taller, but in reality it's not that big of a difference. And we've yet to hear a direct strength comparison from the Forsaken ... they always fall back on skill level in considering facing each other.


It is clear that Demandred has been the leader of the Alliance of Three all along. For Graendal to only notice it by Book 11 is a total stuff up by Sanderson.

In truth, Sanderson's depiction of Graendal in this scene does her an injustice. She appears to only notice Demandred as her main rival for the Nae'blis title at this point in time - tGS. That is inconsistent with her finely tuned observational skills demonstrated by RJ in the series up to that point.


Even her justifications for her changing opinion within that chapter make no sense.

One moment she says Demandred is dangerous because he is ice cold, and the next she says he is dangerous because rage could drive him to act more irrationally than Semirhage. Her statements are contradictory, and her internal monologue makes no sense. Sanderson totally botched that chapter.

That scene is written as if Graendal is weighing up Semirhage nd Demandred for the first time ever. As if she didn't have the entire War of Power to compare their strengths and skills.

In Crown of Swords Graendal realises that Sammael is starting to lose his grip on events and considers for a brief moment to throw herself on Demandred's mercy. She then rejects this option, because "Demandred has no mercy".

Why would she need his mercy, if she isn't even sure if he is more dangerous than Semirhage? Why not then consider throwing herself on Semirhage's mercy?

No, the pecking order among the Forsaken is pretty clear.

Ishamael, Demandred and Lanfear are the most dangerous from a physical perspective, followed by Sammael, Graendal and Semirhage. In that order.

The rest fall outside of the top six, with people like Modghedien lurking in the shadows so as not to expose herself to an opportunity to be attacked by someone so much stronger than herself as the top Forsaken.

To quote Graendal, when comparing Cyndane to Moghedien: "Where had she (the Spider) found someone (Cyndane) SO MUCH stronger than herself?"

Clearly there is a huge gap between Cyndane and Moghedien. And Lanfear is stronger still.

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Proof that Asmodean's effective One Power strength is greater than Moghedien's... Shannow - 03/02/2011 03:22:42 PM 2306 Views
Huh? fionwe1987 - 03/02/2011 04:08:29 PM 1244 Views
Why do you deliberately misquote the text? Shannow - 03/02/2011 04:12:50 PM 1261 Views
You're deliberately being obtuse... as usual... fionwe1987 - 03/02/2011 10:07:09 PM 1197 Views
Right. So Egwene can shield someone of Egwene's own strength, plus Elayne, AND weave a dozen flows.. Shannow - 03/02/2011 10:26:27 PM 1199 Views
fionwe1987 - 03/02/2011 10:46:40 PM 1068 Views
No. Egwene is very close to her full potential at the time... Shannow - 03/02/2011 11:44:20 PM 1202 Views
Bullshit... fionwe1987 - 04/02/2011 12:39:42 AM 1045 Views
Unbiased view... Nargs - 04/02/2011 01:46:40 AM 1183 Views
The WoT Board in a nutshell. *NM* Ghavrel - 04/02/2011 02:34:32 AM 584 Views
Yeah, thats unbiased... *NM* fionwe1987 - 04/02/2011 05:23:17 PM 551 Views
Don't agree Sidious - 04/02/2011 08:30:02 AM 1159 Views
Fair comment, but my question then is: Shannow - 04/02/2011 11:26:25 AM 1043 Views
I think the WO and Moiraine also Force Egwene as they know what's coming and need her darius_sedai - 04/02/2011 03:55:46 PM 1070 Views
It is specifically stated that Egwene was forced by the rigours of the damane training... Shannow - 04/02/2011 05:15:20 PM 1072 Views
Egwene has been continually forced... fionwe1987 - 04/02/2011 06:02:08 PM 994 Views
The direct quotes contradict you... Shannow - 04/02/2011 06:23:03 PM 1094 Views
actually the quote substantiates that Egwene is only slightly stronger than Moiraine in TSR darius_sedai - 04/02/2011 07:51:10 PM 1100 Views
here ya go they were all Forced darius_sedai - 04/02/2011 07:59:40 PM 966 Views
Nope... fionwe1987 - 04/02/2011 08:23:00 PM 1050 Views
I think you may have misused the term - RJ meant 'effective' to mean something a bit different. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 03/02/2011 04:40:41 PM 1219 Views
Re: I think you are mistaking what RJ meant effective to mean. Shannow - 03/02/2011 05:30:15 PM 1140 Views
Re: I think you are mistaking what RJ meant effective to mean. Master Ablar - 03/02/2011 05:45:30 PM 1140 Views
Re: I think you are mistaking what RJ meant effective to mean. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 03/02/2011 06:31:34 PM 1062 Views
Re: I think you are mistaking what RJ meant effective to mean. Kieran - 03/02/2011 07:06:50 PM 1090 Views
Re: I think you are mistaking what RJ meant effective to mean. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 03/02/2011 07:17:25 PM 1075 Views
We still don't know who is effectively stronger, and not sure if Asmo was equal to Rand by the end. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 03/02/2011 06:58:14 PM 897 Views
See my post above, I would say Asmo is Weaker than Moggy... *NM* Kieran - 03/02/2011 07:10:07 PM 574 Views
I'm not certain either way. I think it all depends on the terms being used. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 03/02/2011 07:22:01 PM 1116 Views
Effective strength means who can make the bigger fireball, the stronger shield, the thicker balefire Shannow - 03/02/2011 07:42:17 PM 966 Views
I still hold to the point that your analogy is false. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 04/02/2011 04:20:05 PM 1028 Views
My impression of your view, in general, is that... Shannow - 03/02/2011 07:33:37 PM 997 Views
How... fionwe1987 - 03/02/2011 10:15:34 PM 952 Views
If Nynaeve could do to Egwene and Elayne what Rand did to them, then I rest my case... Shannow - 03/02/2011 10:36:46 PM 1113 Views
Re: If Nynaeve could do to Egwene and Elayne what Rand did to them, then I rest my case... fionwe1987 - 03/02/2011 10:50:57 PM 1068 Views
Got you now... Shannow - 03/02/2011 11:32:49 PM 1022 Views
You're clearly delusional... fionwe1987 - 04/02/2011 12:59:26 AM 1026 Views
You sound ridiculous Nargs - 04/02/2011 02:05:18 AM 1048 Views
Re: You sound ridiculous Kieran - 04/02/2011 02:23:50 AM 1107 Views
Ok... Nargs - 04/02/2011 04:13:34 PM 973 Views
Elayne is not stronger than most AS at this point in the books darius_sedai - 04/02/2011 08:14:41 PM 1004 Views
Where on earth does it say Nynaeve could do to Egwene and Elayne what Rand did? darius_sedai - 04/02/2011 08:06:48 PM 1071 Views
Re: How... Sidious - 04/02/2011 08:34:21 AM 1166 Views
They're very close now... fionwe1987 - 04/02/2011 05:46:48 PM 1133 Views
That is unfortunately not true... Shannow - 04/02/2011 06:02:34 PM 1119 Views
It is... fionwe1987 - 04/02/2011 06:05:05 PM 963 Views
Re: It is... Sidious - 04/02/2011 06:31:32 PM 1216 Views
Yup... fionwe1987 - 04/02/2011 08:20:33 PM 987 Views
Semirhage hated Lanfear, but dared not act against her strength... Shannow - 04/02/2011 08:29:24 PM 1379 Views
yet Graendal showed a lot of respect for Semirhage ... even assumed she was the most darius_sedai - 04/02/2011 08:53:05 PM 1060 Views
Graendal on Semirhage and Demandred... Shannow - 04/02/2011 09:23:50 PM 1319 Views
No Sidious - 04/02/2011 11:10:00 PM 1097 Views
CLAPS *NM* darius_sedai - 05/02/2011 05:15:21 AM 604 Views
We will just have to disagree on this one... Shannow - 05/02/2011 06:57:36 AM 979 Views
Indeed Sidious - 05/02/2011 07:38:10 AM 981 Views
I agree with you ... especially abou the perpective issue darius_sedai - 05/02/2011 03:00:58 PM 1075 Views
I agree with you here darius_sedai - 04/02/2011 08:19:35 PM 988 Views
I don't think that's true.. fionwe1987 - 04/02/2011 08:21:38 PM 931 Views
the evidence is that Aginor burnt out trying to channel the Eye and Rand didn't darius_sedai - 04/02/2011 08:23:50 PM 899 Views
Considering that Asmodean and Rand were using a sa'angreal... ˥ɐ ʎpu∀ɹ - 04/02/2011 04:55:03 AM 1201 Views
I think this is a no brainer Sidious - 04/02/2011 08:22:00 AM 1146 Views
The nice fact which is proven is the magnitude of the gap between Moghedien and Semirhage... Shannow - 04/02/2011 11:32:00 AM 969 Views
Nynaeve could be at 90% or 80% when she faced Moghedien we have no way of measuring that darius_sedai - 04/02/2011 08:42:03 PM 964 Views
Disagree... Shannow - 04/02/2011 08:51:55 PM 1056 Views
spin it all you like... I'm tired of this arument and your creative quoting. darius_sedai - 04/02/2011 08:56:14 PM 941 Views
The creative quoter is Fionwe, not me. You quote correctly, but your interpretations are way off... Shannow - 04/02/2011 09:05:43 PM 918 Views
Nynaeve has grown in strength, but she started nearly as strong as Moiraine! darius_sedai - 05/02/2011 05:35:05 AM 944 Views
Starting out at Moiraine's strength meant starting out at barely 30% of her full potential... Shannow - 05/02/2011 07:05:46 AM 995 Views
Nynaeve's strength Sidious - 05/02/2011 07:49:07 AM 1040 Views
Agree, Egwene has never been as strong as Nynaeve at any stage. *NM* darius_sedai - 05/02/2011 03:03:25 PM 663 Views
I disagree that Moiraine is 30% of Nynaeve. Much closer to 50% of Nynaeve. EDIT darius_sedai - 05/02/2011 03:02:06 PM 1128 Views
Minor quibbles aside... fionwe1987 - 05/02/2011 04:05:30 PM 1117 Views
Agreed, the exact numbers are arbitrary, I place Egwene a tad higher than you ... EDIT darius_sedai - 05/02/2011 04:30:00 PM 934 Views
Re: Agreed, the exact numbers are arbitrary, I place Egwene a tad higher than you ... EDIT fionwe1987 - 05/02/2011 06:09:41 PM 1070 Views
shrugs darius_sedai - 05/02/2011 06:46:02 PM 993 Views
Re: shrugs fionwe1987 - 05/02/2011 08:03:37 PM 1024 Views
I don't recall the Merise quote you are refering too and they have not been together in the series darius_sedai - 05/02/2011 09:20:56 PM 924 Views
I'm sorry, I meant the glossary entry... fionwe1987 - 05/02/2011 10:29:46 PM 954 Views
Thanks for clarifying darius_sedai - 05/02/2011 11:12:19 PM 910 Views
Re: Thanks for clarifying fionwe1987 - 06/02/2011 12:42:51 AM 959 Views
fair enough ... I can agree to Cadsuane and Bode both being 70 with Egwene and co at 80 *NM* darius_sedai - 06/02/2011 04:29:49 AM 519 Views
Cool! *NM* fionwe1987 - 06/02/2011 04:18:52 PM 552 Views
Sorry, but here your entire Bell Curve goes up in smoke... Shannow - 06/02/2011 01:13:15 PM 924 Views
In fact, Moiraine is even STRONGER than I postulated in the above post... Shannow - 06/02/2011 01:22:11 PM 1312 Views
well... Sidious - 06/02/2011 02:11:02 PM 1050 Views
Only a separate Bell Curve for the Age of Legends - when the average strength was higher - will work Shannow - 06/02/2011 03:29:49 PM 970 Views
Or, you know, the Aes Sedai aren't a representative sample... *NM* fionwe1987 - 06/02/2011 04:19:22 PM 674 Views
I don't think Strength was higher in the AOL I think there were just more channelers darius_sedai - 06/02/2011 04:50:42 PM 1024 Views
Yup. fionwe1987 - 06/02/2011 05:30:54 PM 934 Views
Trivial darius_sedai - 06/02/2011 06:10:55 PM 956 Views
Uhhh... no... fionwe1987 - 06/02/2011 04:18:19 PM 856 Views
Read these facts slowly, maybe you will grasp the implication then... Shannow - 06/02/2011 04:41:02 PM 1022 Views
you are missing the fact that women like Sharina have no interest in the Tower darius_sedai - 06/02/2011 05:05:10 PM 1036 Views
You equate random exclusions with the deliberate block exclusion of 37.5% weakest women... Shannow - 06/02/2011 05:41:47 PM 986 Views
wrong darius_sedai - 06/02/2011 06:08:20 PM 1069 Views
That is weak logic in the extreme... Shannow - 06/02/2011 06:16:46 PM 958 Views
what I'm saying is that a representative sample of the entire population darius_sedai - 06/02/2011 06:40:51 PM 1002 Views
Yes. *NM* fionwe1987 - 06/02/2011 06:47:59 PM 617 Views
Yes. *NM* fionwe1987 - 06/02/2011 06:48:00 PM 534 Views
But you don't prove that the undiscovered women are stronger. They may well be weaker... Shannow - 06/02/2011 07:26:27 PM 854 Views
Amys is far from the strongest WO! fionwe1987 - 06/02/2011 07:37:14 PM 1184 Views
Explain the 1000 women they found in Murandy then... fionwe1987 - 06/02/2011 06:26:46 PM 951 Views
And a 1000 years ago... fionwe1987 - 06/02/2011 06:33:29 PM 984 Views
The only implication I grasped is that you don't grasp math... fionwe1987 - 06/02/2011 06:21:12 PM 1068 Views
Circular reasoning... Shannow - 06/02/2011 07:03:53 PM 1011 Views
No, reasoning based on facts and what RJ said, both of which you ignore... fionwe1987 - 06/02/2011 07:34:21 PM 1264 Views
If you're going to ignore direct quotes, then we may as well stop right now... Shannow - 06/02/2011 08:42:40 PM 1095 Views
Agreed. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 04/02/2011 04:32:05 PM 1063 Views
Agree. *NM* fionwe1987 - 04/02/2011 05:49:05 PM 618 Views
agreed *NM* darius_sedai - 04/02/2011 08:27:22 PM 633 Views
off tangent question: Has Nynaeve yet to reach full potential or did she already after being ... Bookwyrm - 04/02/2011 08:39:29 PM 1075 Views
I think the general concensus is that after the CK she was forced to her full potential darius_sedai - 05/02/2011 03:44:29 PM 1006 Views
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