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You're clearly delusional... fionwe1987 Send a noteboard - 04/02/2011 12:59:26 AM
Point 1: Egwene has been forced by the Seanchan to very close to her full strength. Nynaeve has not. Therefore, Egwene is MUCH closer to her full strength than Nynaeve is at that point in time.

But this does not mean she is stronger than Nynaeve!

Point 2: Elayne is already stronger than most Aes Sedai at that point in time.

Some evidence would be nice. Are you going to quote the fact that she can split her flows more ways? That's skill, not strength.

Point 3: Siuan says that at full strength before her stilling, she was able to lift 3 times her body weight into the Air. While holding them both shielded, Rand still lifts BOTH of them into the Air simultaneously, thus lifting two thirds of Siuan's maximum lifting ability.

Because a 5 foot 5 inch woman and a six feet four man weigh the same? And I suppose the much smaller Egwene and the much taller Elayne also weigh the same? Your power calculation based on weightlifting is ridiculous!

This while women are known to be stronger in Air and able to make longer Air bridges etc. And this while Rand is lifting two separate weights with two simultaneous weaves - far more difficult than one person of twice the weight.

How the hell do you know these are two different weaves? You must share your secret sources with us if you want us to believe you.

PLUS he lifted two tables into the Air as well and made them dance across the room.

The tables never left the ground. What seems to be soaring here is your imagination, making completely fictitious events to support an absurd theory.

Altogether, he is lifting far more than Siuan's maximum lifting ability, and he is doing it with 4 separate weaves!

What in Siuan's quote even says anything about how many weaves she uses to lift thrice her weight? How do you know that she cannot make three weaves each capable of lifting thrice her weight? For example, Rand can only make a 4x4 gateway. But he can make six of them at once! So how do you know that 3x her body weight isn't Siuan's maximum for a single weave, not the total maximum?

You keep relying on completely pointless quotes to support your ideas. Its sad, really.

Bottomline, Rand is shielding both of them, and still is able to exceed a feat requiring the full strength of Moiraine/Siuan at the same time.

You have proved absolutely none of this.

Therefore, he is shielding Egwene - who significantly exceeds Moiraine's strength at the time, he is shielding Elayne - who approximates a strong Aes Sedai at the time, and he is lifting weight that would require greater strength than Moiraine all on its own. This while splitting the flows that are doing so.

And since when did splitting flows become a meter of strength? Based on that, Egwene with forkroot in KoD is stronger than Rand in tSR!

That already means he significantly stronger than two Moiraine's PLUS another strong Aes Sedai. Those feats alone probably puts him in the 3 x Moiraine's strength bracket.

There is absolutely no one who is thrice as strong as Moiraine. There's no way RJ's bell curve statements would support that. If only 67% of women can become Aes Sedai, and Moiraine is around thrice as strong as an entry level AS like Daigian, there's no way anyone can be thrice as strong as her and still fit a bell curve. The math just won't allow it.

Is Moghedien able to equal that? If she can then she is about 3 times as strong as Moiraine, about 5 times as strong as an average Aes Sedai, and about 9 times as strong as Dagian.

She's almost certainly equal to that. The rest of your statements cannot be true in the system RJ created, sorry.

Are you happy with placing Moghedien that high? Because that would mean that she is about 50% stronger than Egwene, who is only equal to about twice Moiraine's strength.

I'm very comfortable placing Moghedien as strong as Rand in tSR because that proves that: 1)Egwene wasn't very close to her potential then (supported by her comments) 2)Egwene, at full strength, would be just below this. Which is reflected in her statements about being able to handle five Aes Sedai (which doesn't mean she's five times as strong as them either). 3)Nynaeve at full strength can easily exceed what Rand did here.
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Proof that Asmodean's effective One Power strength is greater than Moghedien's... Shannow - 03/02/2011 03:22:42 PM 2237 Views
Huh? fionwe1987 - 03/02/2011 04:08:29 PM 1167 Views
Why do you deliberately misquote the text? Shannow - 03/02/2011 04:12:50 PM 1187 Views
You're deliberately being obtuse... as usual... fionwe1987 - 03/02/2011 10:07:09 PM 1120 Views
Right. So Egwene can shield someone of Egwene's own strength, plus Elayne, AND weave a dozen flows.. Shannow - 03/02/2011 10:26:27 PM 1116 Views
fionwe1987 - 03/02/2011 10:46:40 PM 994 Views
No. Egwene is very close to her full potential at the time... Shannow - 03/02/2011 11:44:20 PM 1093 Views
Bullshit... fionwe1987 - 04/02/2011 12:39:42 AM 968 Views
Unbiased view... Nargs - 04/02/2011 01:46:40 AM 1087 Views
The WoT Board in a nutshell. *NM* Ghavrel - 04/02/2011 02:34:32 AM 535 Views
Yeah, thats unbiased... *NM* fionwe1987 - 04/02/2011 05:23:17 PM 519 Views
Don't agree Sidious - 04/02/2011 08:30:02 AM 1104 Views
Fair comment, but my question then is: Shannow - 04/02/2011 11:26:25 AM 953 Views
I think the WO and Moiraine also Force Egwene as they know what's coming and need her darius_sedai - 04/02/2011 03:55:46 PM 967 Views
It is specifically stated that Egwene was forced by the rigours of the damane training... Shannow - 04/02/2011 05:15:20 PM 948 Views
Egwene has been continually forced... fionwe1987 - 04/02/2011 06:02:08 PM 907 Views
The direct quotes contradict you... Shannow - 04/02/2011 06:23:03 PM 1001 Views
actually the quote substantiates that Egwene is only slightly stronger than Moiraine in TSR darius_sedai - 04/02/2011 07:51:10 PM 1016 Views
here ya go they were all Forced darius_sedai - 04/02/2011 07:59:40 PM 883 Views
Nope... fionwe1987 - 04/02/2011 08:23:00 PM 970 Views
I think you may have misused the term - RJ meant 'effective' to mean something a bit different. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 03/02/2011 04:40:41 PM 1145 Views
Re: I think you are mistaking what RJ meant effective to mean. Shannow - 03/02/2011 05:30:15 PM 1061 Views
Re: I think you are mistaking what RJ meant effective to mean. Master Ablar - 03/02/2011 05:45:30 PM 1061 Views
Re: I think you are mistaking what RJ meant effective to mean. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 03/02/2011 06:31:34 PM 985 Views
Re: I think you are mistaking what RJ meant effective to mean. Kieran - 03/02/2011 07:06:50 PM 1006 Views
Re: I think you are mistaking what RJ meant effective to mean. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 03/02/2011 07:17:25 PM 1003 Views
We still don't know who is effectively stronger, and not sure if Asmo was equal to Rand by the end. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 03/02/2011 06:58:14 PM 821 Views
See my post above, I would say Asmo is Weaker than Moggy... *NM* Kieran - 03/02/2011 07:10:07 PM 542 Views
I'm not certain either way. I think it all depends on the terms being used. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 03/02/2011 07:22:01 PM 1040 Views
Effective strength means who can make the bigger fireball, the stronger shield, the thicker balefire Shannow - 03/02/2011 07:42:17 PM 898 Views
I still hold to the point that your analogy is false. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 04/02/2011 04:20:05 PM 958 Views
My impression of your view, in general, is that... Shannow - 03/02/2011 07:33:37 PM 914 Views
How... fionwe1987 - 03/02/2011 10:15:34 PM 870 Views
If Nynaeve could do to Egwene and Elayne what Rand did to them, then I rest my case... Shannow - 03/02/2011 10:36:46 PM 1030 Views
Re: If Nynaeve could do to Egwene and Elayne what Rand did to them, then I rest my case... fionwe1987 - 03/02/2011 10:50:57 PM 973 Views
Got you now... Shannow - 03/02/2011 11:32:49 PM 945 Views
You're clearly delusional... fionwe1987 - 04/02/2011 12:59:26 AM 952 Views
You sound ridiculous Nargs - 04/02/2011 02:05:18 AM 950 Views
Re: You sound ridiculous Kieran - 04/02/2011 02:23:50 AM 1034 Views
Ok... Nargs - 04/02/2011 04:13:34 PM 897 Views
Elayne is not stronger than most AS at this point in the books darius_sedai - 04/02/2011 08:14:41 PM 931 Views
Where on earth does it say Nynaeve could do to Egwene and Elayne what Rand did? darius_sedai - 04/02/2011 08:06:48 PM 982 Views
Re: How... Sidious - 04/02/2011 08:34:21 AM 1089 Views
They're very close now... fionwe1987 - 04/02/2011 05:46:48 PM 1044 Views
That is unfortunately not true... Shannow - 04/02/2011 06:02:34 PM 1030 Views
It is... fionwe1987 - 04/02/2011 06:05:05 PM 877 Views
Re: It is... Sidious - 04/02/2011 06:31:32 PM 1139 Views
Yup... fionwe1987 - 04/02/2011 08:20:33 PM 886 Views
Semirhage hated Lanfear, but dared not act against her strength... Shannow - 04/02/2011 08:29:24 PM 1308 Views
yet Graendal showed a lot of respect for Semirhage ... even assumed she was the most darius_sedai - 04/02/2011 08:53:05 PM 973 Views
Graendal on Semirhage and Demandred... Shannow - 04/02/2011 09:23:50 PM 1239 Views
No Sidious - 04/02/2011 11:10:00 PM 1017 Views
CLAPS *NM* darius_sedai - 05/02/2011 05:15:21 AM 570 Views
We will just have to disagree on this one... Shannow - 05/02/2011 06:57:36 AM 908 Views
Indeed Sidious - 05/02/2011 07:38:10 AM 898 Views
I agree with you ... especially abou the perpective issue darius_sedai - 05/02/2011 03:00:58 PM 993 Views
I agree with you here darius_sedai - 04/02/2011 08:19:35 PM 907 Views
I don't think that's true.. fionwe1987 - 04/02/2011 08:21:38 PM 842 Views
the evidence is that Aginor burnt out trying to channel the Eye and Rand didn't darius_sedai - 04/02/2011 08:23:50 PM 803 Views
Considering that Asmodean and Rand were using a sa'angreal... ˥ɐ ʎpu∀ɹ - 04/02/2011 04:55:03 AM 1113 Views
I think this is a no brainer Sidious - 04/02/2011 08:22:00 AM 1057 Views
The nice fact which is proven is the magnitude of the gap between Moghedien and Semirhage... Shannow - 04/02/2011 11:32:00 AM 892 Views
Nynaeve could be at 90% or 80% when she faced Moghedien we have no way of measuring that darius_sedai - 04/02/2011 08:42:03 PM 892 Views
Disagree... Shannow - 04/02/2011 08:51:55 PM 966 Views
spin it all you like... I'm tired of this arument and your creative quoting. darius_sedai - 04/02/2011 08:56:14 PM 867 Views
The creative quoter is Fionwe, not me. You quote correctly, but your interpretations are way off... Shannow - 04/02/2011 09:05:43 PM 868 Views
Nynaeve has grown in strength, but she started nearly as strong as Moiraine! darius_sedai - 05/02/2011 05:35:05 AM 858 Views
Starting out at Moiraine's strength meant starting out at barely 30% of her full potential... Shannow - 05/02/2011 07:05:46 AM 912 Views
Nynaeve's strength Sidious - 05/02/2011 07:49:07 AM 962 Views
Agree, Egwene has never been as strong as Nynaeve at any stage. *NM* darius_sedai - 05/02/2011 03:03:25 PM 624 Views
I disagree that Moiraine is 30% of Nynaeve. Much closer to 50% of Nynaeve. EDIT darius_sedai - 05/02/2011 03:02:06 PM 1046 Views
Minor quibbles aside... fionwe1987 - 05/02/2011 04:05:30 PM 1046 Views
Agreed, the exact numbers are arbitrary, I place Egwene a tad higher than you ... EDIT darius_sedai - 05/02/2011 04:30:00 PM 861 Views
Re: Agreed, the exact numbers are arbitrary, I place Egwene a tad higher than you ... EDIT fionwe1987 - 05/02/2011 06:09:41 PM 993 Views
shrugs darius_sedai - 05/02/2011 06:46:02 PM 915 Views
Re: shrugs fionwe1987 - 05/02/2011 08:03:37 PM 925 Views
I don't recall the Merise quote you are refering too and they have not been together in the series darius_sedai - 05/02/2011 09:20:56 PM 847 Views
I'm sorry, I meant the glossary entry... fionwe1987 - 05/02/2011 10:29:46 PM 902 Views
Thanks for clarifying darius_sedai - 05/02/2011 11:12:19 PM 821 Views
Re: Thanks for clarifying fionwe1987 - 06/02/2011 12:42:51 AM 881 Views
fair enough ... I can agree to Cadsuane and Bode both being 70 with Egwene and co at 80 *NM* darius_sedai - 06/02/2011 04:29:49 AM 487 Views
Cool! *NM* fionwe1987 - 06/02/2011 04:18:52 PM 527 Views
Sorry, but here your entire Bell Curve goes up in smoke... Shannow - 06/02/2011 01:13:15 PM 838 Views
In fact, Moiraine is even STRONGER than I postulated in the above post... Shannow - 06/02/2011 01:22:11 PM 1231 Views
well... Sidious - 06/02/2011 02:11:02 PM 972 Views
Only a separate Bell Curve for the Age of Legends - when the average strength was higher - will work Shannow - 06/02/2011 03:29:49 PM 891 Views
Or, you know, the Aes Sedai aren't a representative sample... *NM* fionwe1987 - 06/02/2011 04:19:22 PM 633 Views
I don't think Strength was higher in the AOL I think there were just more channelers darius_sedai - 06/02/2011 04:50:42 PM 943 Views
Yup. fionwe1987 - 06/02/2011 05:30:54 PM 864 Views
Trivial darius_sedai - 06/02/2011 06:10:55 PM 884 Views
Uhhh... no... fionwe1987 - 06/02/2011 04:18:19 PM 778 Views
Read these facts slowly, maybe you will grasp the implication then... Shannow - 06/02/2011 04:41:02 PM 936 Views
you are missing the fact that women like Sharina have no interest in the Tower darius_sedai - 06/02/2011 05:05:10 PM 963 Views
You equate random exclusions with the deliberate block exclusion of 37.5% weakest women... Shannow - 06/02/2011 05:41:47 PM 891 Views
wrong darius_sedai - 06/02/2011 06:08:20 PM 1002 Views
That is weak logic in the extreme... Shannow - 06/02/2011 06:16:46 PM 876 Views
what I'm saying is that a representative sample of the entire population darius_sedai - 06/02/2011 06:40:51 PM 924 Views
Yes. *NM* fionwe1987 - 06/02/2011 06:47:59 PM 583 Views
Yes. *NM* fionwe1987 - 06/02/2011 06:48:00 PM 507 Views
But you don't prove that the undiscovered women are stronger. They may well be weaker... Shannow - 06/02/2011 07:26:27 PM 770 Views
Amys is far from the strongest WO! fionwe1987 - 06/02/2011 07:37:14 PM 1081 Views
Explain the 1000 women they found in Murandy then... fionwe1987 - 06/02/2011 06:26:46 PM 873 Views
And a 1000 years ago... fionwe1987 - 06/02/2011 06:33:29 PM 898 Views
The only implication I grasped is that you don't grasp math... fionwe1987 - 06/02/2011 06:21:12 PM 990 Views
Circular reasoning... Shannow - 06/02/2011 07:03:53 PM 934 Views
No, reasoning based on facts and what RJ said, both of which you ignore... fionwe1987 - 06/02/2011 07:34:21 PM 1186 Views
If you're going to ignore direct quotes, then we may as well stop right now... Shannow - 06/02/2011 08:42:40 PM 1014 Views
Agreed. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 04/02/2011 04:32:05 PM 977 Views
Agree. *NM* fionwe1987 - 04/02/2011 05:49:05 PM 593 Views
agreed *NM* darius_sedai - 04/02/2011 08:27:22 PM 608 Views
off tangent question: Has Nynaeve yet to reach full potential or did she already after being ... Bookwyrm - 04/02/2011 08:39:29 PM 1006 Views
I think the general concensus is that after the CK she was forced to her full potential darius_sedai - 05/02/2011 03:44:29 PM 947 Views
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