Proof that Asmodean's effective One Power strength is greater than Moghedien's...
Shannow Send a noteboard - 03/02/2011 03:22:42 PM
Sidious's recent thread has unlocked a direct comparison between the One Power strengths of some of the Forsaken, and once again Nynaeve is the key to a definitive answer in this respect.
Without going into a lengthy post, we can use Nynaeve as a measuring stick to demonstrate how Moghedien, Asmodean and Semirhage compare to one another in EFFECTIVE strength.
Basically, it goes like this:
Nynaeve is still significantly below her full potential in tSR, when she EXACTLY matches Moghedien in strength.
At the end of the same book, Rand EXACTLY matches Asmodean in strength. Neither Rand or Nynaeve are at their full strength yet at this point.
Egwene acknowledges in the SAME book that Nynaeve is weaker than Rand at that point in time - although we didn't need Egwene's statement to grasp that fact, given the status of Rand vs Nynaeve in the channeling pecking order from a thematic perspective.
Therefore, we can definitively state that, as at the time of tSR:
Nynaeve = Moghedien
Rand = Asmodean
Rand > Nynaeve
Therefore Asmodean > Moghedien.
Conclusion: Asmodean is without a doubt stronger in the Power than Moghedien. And we are referring to effective strength here, because when Nynaeve and Rand were compared, Egwene could not sense the QUANTITY of saidin he was channeling, but could merely judge the EFFECT that he was able to achieve (simultaneously shielding both her and Elayne while channeling a dozen flows at the same time).
Thefefore if Rand's EFFECTIVE strength exceeded Nynaeve's at that point, then Asmodean's effective strength exceeds Moghedien's.
Furthermore, since it has been confirmed that Nynaeve and Semirhage are VERY close to one another in strength, we can also state without fear of contradiction that the difference in strength between Modhedien and Semirhage is exactly the same as difference between Nynaeve's strength in Book 4 and Nynaeve's full potential strength.
Since Nynaeve is still growing in strength 3 or 4 books later, it seems pretty clear that the gap between Moghedien and Semirhage is considerable.
In fact, as late as POD, Elayne states that neither she nor Nynaeve had yet reached their full potential strength. That is a long time after Nynaeve matched Moghedien in strength.
Without going into a lengthy post, we can use Nynaeve as a measuring stick to demonstrate how Moghedien, Asmodean and Semirhage compare to one another in EFFECTIVE strength.
Basically, it goes like this:
Nynaeve is still significantly below her full potential in tSR, when she EXACTLY matches Moghedien in strength.
At the end of the same book, Rand EXACTLY matches Asmodean in strength. Neither Rand or Nynaeve are at their full strength yet at this point.
Egwene acknowledges in the SAME book that Nynaeve is weaker than Rand at that point in time - although we didn't need Egwene's statement to grasp that fact, given the status of Rand vs Nynaeve in the channeling pecking order from a thematic perspective.
Therefore, we can definitively state that, as at the time of tSR:
Nynaeve = Moghedien
Rand = Asmodean
Rand > Nynaeve
Therefore Asmodean > Moghedien.
Conclusion: Asmodean is without a doubt stronger in the Power than Moghedien. And we are referring to effective strength here, because when Nynaeve and Rand were compared, Egwene could not sense the QUANTITY of saidin he was channeling, but could merely judge the EFFECT that he was able to achieve (simultaneously shielding both her and Elayne while channeling a dozen flows at the same time).
Thefefore if Rand's EFFECTIVE strength exceeded Nynaeve's at that point, then Asmodean's effective strength exceeds Moghedien's.
Furthermore, since it has been confirmed that Nynaeve and Semirhage are VERY close to one another in strength, we can also state without fear of contradiction that the difference in strength between Modhedien and Semirhage is exactly the same as difference between Nynaeve's strength in Book 4 and Nynaeve's full potential strength.
Since Nynaeve is still growing in strength 3 or 4 books later, it seems pretty clear that the gap between Moghedien and Semirhage is considerable.
In fact, as late as POD, Elayne states that neither she nor Nynaeve had yet reached their full potential strength. That is a long time after Nynaeve matched Moghedien in strength.
This message last edited by Shannow on 03/02/2011 at 03:58:12 PM
Proof that Asmodean's effective One Power strength is greater than Moghedien's...
03/02/2011 03:22:42 PM
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Huh?
03/02/2011 04:08:29 PM
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Why do you deliberately misquote the text?
03/02/2011 04:12:50 PM
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You're deliberately being obtuse... as usual...
03/02/2011 10:07:09 PM
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Right. So Egwene can shield someone of Egwene's own strength, plus Elayne, AND weave a dozen flows..
03/02/2011 10:26:27 PM
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03/02/2011 10:46:40 PM
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No. Egwene is very close to her full potential at the time...
03/02/2011 11:44:20 PM
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Don't agree
04/02/2011 08:30:02 AM
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Fair comment, but my question then is:
04/02/2011 11:26:25 AM
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I think the WO and Moiraine also Force Egwene as they know what's coming and need her
04/02/2011 03:55:46 PM
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It is specifically stated that Egwene was forced by the rigours of the damane training...
04/02/2011 05:15:20 PM
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Egwene has been continually forced...
04/02/2011 06:02:08 PM
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The direct quotes contradict you...
04/02/2011 06:23:03 PM
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actually the quote substantiates that Egwene is only slightly stronger than Moiraine in TSR
04/02/2011 07:51:10 PM
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I think you may have misused the term - RJ meant 'effective' to mean something a bit different.
03/02/2011 04:40:41 PM
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Re: I think you are mistaking what RJ meant effective to mean.
03/02/2011 05:30:15 PM
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Re: I think you are mistaking what RJ meant effective to mean.
03/02/2011 05:45:30 PM
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Re: I think you are mistaking what RJ meant effective to mean.
03/02/2011 06:31:34 PM
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We still don't know who is effectively stronger, and not sure if Asmo was equal to Rand by the end.
03/02/2011 06:58:14 PM
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See my post above, I would say Asmo is Weaker than Moggy... *NM*
03/02/2011 07:10:07 PM
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I'm not certain either way. I think it all depends on the terms being used.
03/02/2011 07:22:01 PM
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Effective strength means who can make the bigger fireball, the stronger shield, the thicker balefire
03/02/2011 07:42:17 PM
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My impression of your view, in general, is that...
03/02/2011 07:33:37 PM
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How...
03/02/2011 10:15:34 PM
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If Nynaeve could do to Egwene and Elayne what Rand did to them, then I rest my case...
03/02/2011 10:36:46 PM
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Re: If Nynaeve could do to Egwene and Elayne what Rand did to them, then I rest my case...
03/02/2011 10:50:57 PM
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Got you now...
03/02/2011 11:32:49 PM
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You're clearly delusional...
04/02/2011 12:59:26 AM
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You sound ridiculous
04/02/2011 02:05:18 AM
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Where on earth does it say Nynaeve could do to Egwene and Elayne what Rand did?
04/02/2011 08:06:48 PM
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Re: How...
04/02/2011 08:34:21 AM
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They're very close now...
04/02/2011 05:46:48 PM
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That is unfortunately not true...
04/02/2011 06:02:34 PM
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It is...
04/02/2011 06:05:05 PM
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Re: It is...
04/02/2011 06:31:32 PM
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Yup...
04/02/2011 08:20:33 PM
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Semirhage hated Lanfear, but dared not act against her strength...
04/02/2011 08:29:24 PM
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yet Graendal showed a lot of respect for Semirhage ... even assumed she was the most
04/02/2011 08:53:05 PM
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Graendal on Semirhage and Demandred...
04/02/2011 09:23:50 PM
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No
04/02/2011 11:10:00 PM
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We will just have to disagree on this one...
05/02/2011 06:57:36 AM
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I agree with you here
04/02/2011 08:19:35 PM
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I don't think that's true..
04/02/2011 08:21:38 PM
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the evidence is that Aginor burnt out trying to channel the Eye and Rand didn't
04/02/2011 08:23:50 PM
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I think this is a no brainer
04/02/2011 08:22:00 AM
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The nice fact which is proven is the magnitude of the gap between Moghedien and Semirhage...
04/02/2011 11:32:00 AM
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Nynaeve could be at 90% or 80% when she faced Moghedien we have no way of measuring that
04/02/2011 08:42:03 PM
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Disagree...
04/02/2011 08:51:55 PM
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spin it all you like... I'm tired of this arument and your creative quoting.
04/02/2011 08:56:14 PM
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The creative quoter is Fionwe, not me. You quote correctly, but your interpretations are way off...
04/02/2011 09:05:43 PM
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Nynaeve has grown in strength, but she started nearly as strong as Moiraine!
05/02/2011 05:35:05 AM
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Starting out at Moiraine's strength meant starting out at barely 30% of her full potential...
05/02/2011 07:05:46 AM
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Nynaeve's strength
05/02/2011 07:49:07 AM
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Agree, Egwene has never been as strong as Nynaeve at any stage. *NM*
05/02/2011 03:03:25 PM
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I disagree that Moiraine is 30% of Nynaeve. Much closer to 50% of Nynaeve. EDIT
05/02/2011 03:02:06 PM
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Minor quibbles aside...
05/02/2011 04:05:30 PM
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Agreed, the exact numbers are arbitrary, I place Egwene a tad higher than you ... EDIT
05/02/2011 04:30:00 PM
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Re: Agreed, the exact numbers are arbitrary, I place Egwene a tad higher than you ... EDIT
05/02/2011 06:09:41 PM
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shrugs
05/02/2011 06:46:02 PM
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Re: shrugs
05/02/2011 08:03:37 PM
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I don't recall the Merise quote you are refering too and they have not been together in the series
05/02/2011 09:20:56 PM
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I'm sorry, I meant the glossary entry...
05/02/2011 10:29:46 PM
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Thanks for clarifying
05/02/2011 11:12:19 PM
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Re: Thanks for clarifying
06/02/2011 12:42:51 AM
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fair enough ... I can agree to Cadsuane and Bode both being 70 with Egwene and co at 80 *NM*
06/02/2011 04:29:49 AM
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Sorry, but here your entire Bell Curve goes up in smoke...
06/02/2011 01:13:15 PM
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In fact, Moiraine is even STRONGER than I postulated in the above post...
06/02/2011 01:22:11 PM
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well...
06/02/2011 02:11:02 PM
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Only a separate Bell Curve for the Age of Legends - when the average strength was higher - will work
06/02/2011 03:29:49 PM
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Or, you know, the Aes Sedai aren't a representative sample... *NM*
06/02/2011 04:19:22 PM
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I don't think Strength was higher in the AOL I think there were just more channelers
06/02/2011 04:50:42 PM
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Uhhh... no...
06/02/2011 04:18:19 PM
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Read these facts slowly, maybe you will grasp the implication then...
06/02/2011 04:41:02 PM
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you are missing the fact that women like Sharina have no interest in the Tower
06/02/2011 05:05:10 PM
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You equate random exclusions with the deliberate block exclusion of 37.5% weakest women...
06/02/2011 05:41:47 PM
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wrong
06/02/2011 06:08:20 PM
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That is weak logic in the extreme...
06/02/2011 06:16:46 PM
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what I'm saying is that a representative sample of the entire population
06/02/2011 06:40:51 PM
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But you don't prove that the undiscovered women are stronger. They may well be weaker...
06/02/2011 07:26:27 PM
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The only implication I grasped is that you don't grasp math...
06/02/2011 06:21:12 PM
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Circular reasoning...
06/02/2011 07:03:53 PM
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No, reasoning based on facts and what RJ said, both of which you ignore...
06/02/2011 07:34:21 PM
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If you're going to ignore direct quotes, then we may as well stop right now...
06/02/2011 08:42:40 PM
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off tangent question: Has Nynaeve yet to reach full potential or did she already after being ...
04/02/2011 08:39:29 PM
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I think the general concensus is that after the CK she was forced to her full potential
05/02/2011 03:44:29 PM
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