Easy. And I dispute that all 6 women shielding Logain were only 10% stronger than an Accepted. - Edit 2
Before modification by Shannow at 29/01/2011 12:45:35 PM
I'm rationalizing the inconsistency in the books. Logain is not stronger than Rand at this point in the series ... Rand was already strong enough to face any of the FS males at this point (he'd killed off Rahvin just before in fact). Later quotes about the weakest sisters given these types of tasks just reinforce the point.
Rationalising it? OK, let's go with it.
That is speculation on your part, and not evidence. There is no direct comparison between Rand and Logain's strength as at LoC.
The fact that he has defeated some of the male Forsaken means nothing in the context of the strength argument. Rand exactly matched Asmodean (the Moghedien of the male Forsaken) at the end of FoH. During FoH, he states clearly that he is still growing stronger in the Power. We don't know if he matches Rahvin at the end of FoH, because he defeats him with the help of an angreal, in TAR, and with Nynaeve's help. A direct strength comparison is never made. So I reject that entire line of reasoning on your part.
No it does not. Nynaeve's shield was about to break, but we have no clue how much effort Logain was making, nor do we know how good Nynaeve is at shielding, she did after all fail to shield Elayne, which if she was as much stronger as you claim she should not have had a problem with.
Nynaeve's shield was at breaking point, but it held. The contention is that the shield of 5 sisters might NOT have held. This puts them at exactly the same level of strength. The fact that it becomes more difficult to break a shield held by a circle, due to its increased precision only adds to the remarkable level of Nynaeve's strength.
Worst case scenario, Nynaeve's shield would have broken, albeit with significant effort on Logain's part, which puts her at exactly the same level as the 5 sisters, whose shield would also have broken with significant effort by Logain. In both cases, the strength of the shield was borderline enough to make it uncertain whether it would have held or not, and that is why Nynaeve is as strong as 5 sisters and not 6.
Thank you. The fact that Nynaeve failed to shield Elayne - coupled with the general view that Nynaeve is a crap channeler (in other words extremely clumsy and unskilled at anything other than Healing according to Cadsuane) strengthens MY argument, since it demonstrates that Nynaeve was relying on brute strength to hold that shield, and no shielding Talent or any other type of advantage. If anything, she is at a disadvantage in the skill department, with only her great strength making her feat possible.
My contention is that Nynaeve is 50% stronger than Elayne. There is no guarantee that you can shield someone who is already holding the Power if you are 50% stronger than her. Skills becomes a factor then, and Nynaeve is VERY unskilled.
1.5x Daigian is a significant margin! that's a 50% increase in strength over Daigian, try 1.1x-1.2x Daigian for these women!
Yeah, see, this is where we completely disagree. Dagian is only a hair stronger than an Accepted. In fact, many Accepted are clearly stronger than her despite being far below their full potential (think Nicola etc.)
Dagian is SO weak that she is virtually seen as an Accepted.
If there are 300 Aes Sedai in the camp, then 150 of them will be above average strength (2x Dagian's strength). The remaining 150 will be below average strength. We are also lead to believe that the distribution is centered around the middle, with more women lying close to the average than far from it. Meaning that of those 150, more will be above 1.5 times Dagian's strength than below it. The farther you move from the center, the fewer women you will find.
I reject that all 6 women shielding Logain were only 10% stronger than an Accepted. Not given the danger of the situation. And yet, if they are only 10% stronger than Dagian, then that is what we are saying - they are only 10% stronger than an Accepted. I actually doubt whether there ARE that many women so close to Dagian in strength. She is an outlier, with most women situated closer to the mean.
No that would make all of these women probably stronger than Siuan is now, and that's very unlikely.
Why is that unlikely? Siuan is among the weakest Aes Sedai in the entire Tower now. Barely above one third of her former strength. She is scraping and bowing to almost every Aes Sedai she meets. In truth, I would expect ALL 6 of them to be significantly STRONGER than Siuan.
Firstly, Nynaeve could not hold the shield on Logain so she is clearly not as strong as the 6 combined that did hold the shield
I never said that. I said she is as strong as 5 of them, not 6.
Secondly you have claimed that Daigian is a 10 in strength (which I think is conservative, but I'll use it for this purpose).
By all means, make Dagian stronger. That would only STRENGTHEN my case, as it would push up Nyneave's strength if she was stronger than 5 women who are all stronger than Dagian.
5 women at 1.5x her would be 75 and should have been able to hold any man. But 5 women who are 1.2x Daigian (total of 60) would not have been able to hold him but add in a 6th at that level and he's contained by the combined 72 ... certainly there will be variations here (linking benefits, shielding Talents etc), but when you compare to Rand (where the same variables exist) ... the 4 women holding him were likely much closer to 2x Daigian, so an 80 combined, but once they lost that extra 20 he shattered a 60 shield.
Who says 5 women totaling 75 can hold any man? We don't know that at all. RJ said that holding someone of the opposite sex is much harder than shielding someone of the same sex. We don't know what strength level is needed for that at all.
The rest is pure speculation on your part. We don't know HOW strong the shield on Rand was, we don't know what percentage of his full strength he was physically capable of in his weakened state, AND we don't know how close to Lews Therin's full potential he was at that point.
.
Nothing really supports that quote except Moiraine's hyperbole ... face it that quote has never been literal and wasn't meant to be. If it was Nynaeve would be 10,000x Egwene and we all know that's not the case.
Nothing really supports that quote except Moiraine's hyperbole ... face it that quote has never been literal and wasn't meant to be. If it was Nynaeve would be 10,000x Egwene and we all know that's not the case.
It indicates that Nynaeve is significantly stronger than Elayne and Egwene. It certainly does not indicate that they are close to each other in strength.
No one is contesting these things, it's a matter of the scale we use, not the facts from the book, it's clear that Egwene is approximately 2x Sheriam (Amys+Melaine) and that Moiraine is about 3x Daigian. The question has always been where do the Forsaken level women fit on that Scale ... I say 2x Moiraine you think more than that.
Well, if you agree that Egwene is about 2 x Sheriam, then you sink your own theory that Sheriam is at more or less the average woman's strength level, since that would make Egwene the strongest possible woman at twice the average strength. That's kind of a problem, isn't it, given that we have the little matter of Moghedien, Nynaeve, Sharina, Graendal, Alivia and Lanfear to fit in above her somewhere...
We have no idea if Nynaeve's shield was able to duplicate the effect of those 5 women. Logain put no effort into it and Nynaeve herself noted that it was a very slow build that bent her shield with no real effort then wondered what would happen if he put any effort into it! All we are told about the shielding effect later is that 6 women could hold the shield, but that if it had been 5 he could have broken free ... no idea if that would have been easy or if that would have been a struggle for Logain.
What we can see from the book is that Nynaeve's shield really had no chance of holding Logain if he had chosen to break it.
I've already dealt with this. Logain couldn't break free from Nynaeve without a struggle. Nor could he break free from 5 women without a struggle. He could possibly have broken free from Nynaeve with a struggle, and he could probably have broken free from 5 women with a struggle.
That means that in both cases, the shield would have been borderline sufficient to hold him. Placing both shields in roughly the same category of strength. The grey area where it becomes possible but not certain that Logain could break free.
My last point is simply that a random selection of 6 women would have resulted in each of them being the average strength. Given the danger of a false Dragon in their midst, I would suggest that they might even have erred on the side of caution and made them all STRONGER than the average woman.
But either way, there is no way that all 5 women were only 10 or 20% stronger than an Accepted, which is what you're contending.
Nope. 1.5 times Dagian's strength already placed these women in the bottom 20% of channelers in terms of strength. That is an overly conservative estimate in my view, but one I am willing to accept just to prove my point. An average of 1.5 times Dagian's strength is a minimum value, in my view.
I trust I've addressed all of your points in detail.
Oh and to address your title question, Moghedien at say 70% of Lanfear is very viable, considering that she was a spy, and infiltrator and not a battle channeler, she hid in the shadows and never confronted the other Forsaken head on, and the Guide specifically said that she could never HOPE to face Lanfear's superior strength head on.
The Forsaken don't have to all be within 10% of one another. There is a significant gap between them, in terms of strength.