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Circular logic... Shannow Send a noteboard - 27/01/2011 09:49:40 PM
the 4 holding Rand clearly must have been stronger than the 5 who could not hold Logain.

We know at least Sashalle is reasonably strong for an AS since she's taken charge in Cairhien ...

The evidence is that 5 very weak women could not contain Logain, while 4 reasonably strong women (certainly well above Siuan) held Rand. We also know that none of these women were exceptionally strong since Sahsalle is clearly the strongest of them and she is only slightly above Samitsu, who's behavior points to her being weaker than Verin ... This probably means Sashalle is similar to Verin, combined with similar strength women 4 could hold Rand. Which equates to approximately 8x Daigian holding that shield ... and as soon as it dropped to 6x Daigian he shattered it.



Then we have similar situation with Semirhage. 3 women held her shield and it was considered "taking precautions" ... at one point one of the women was Daigian! Corele and Nesune are reasonably strong, but not at the top AS levels, ... but above average so maybe 2x Daigian ... if Semirhage, who is very close to Nynaeve, could be held, easily, by these 3 that would be approximately 6x Daigian strength and it was deemed as taking extra precaution. Meaning 4x Daigian would have been sufficient to hold her, and possibly 3x since there are other combinations of women who hold the shield and same sex shielding is supposedly easier.

Point here is that Nynaeve cannot be 10x Daigian, or even 8x Daigain or she would have been able to hold the shield on Logain. Nynaeve had not reached full potential by this point, but she was pretty darn close since she was already stronger than Moghedien.


You say Nynaeve MUST be close to her full potential, because she is already stronger than Moghedien. But at the same time, YOU are the one who claims that Moghedien is close to the stronger Forsaken in strength. So now you are backing up your own assertion with another of your own assertions.

While Nynaeve is stronger than Moghedien, that means nothing if Moghedien is indeed barely 60-70% as strong as Lanfear, as is MY contention. Then Nynaeve could easily have a LOT of room to improve beyond that point. Which is my point, and which would show that the strength distribution is much more spread out than your theory suggests.

To address some of the specifics in your argument:

Here's some more circular reasoning:

You first said that the quote relating to Logain being able to break free from 5 women is inconsistent because Rand could not break free from 4 women. And then you say that this proves that the 5 women were weaker than Rand's 4 women, BECAUSE Logain could break free from them. Well, which is it? Either the quote is inconsistent with the evidence, or ONE possibility could be that Logain's women were weaker than Rand's women. It can't be both.

Either way, I gave a number of OTHER reasons why Rand was not in a state to utilize his full strength. Not to mention the possibility that Logain could in fact still have been STRONGER than Rand at this point in the series.

In any case, the comparison with Rand's case is unnecessary, because the Logain example is all we need for the purposes of establishing Nynaeve's strength.

Regarding Logain's women themselves: I have already given you the benefit of the doubt by giving them an average strength of only 1.5 times Daigian's strength.

That makes ALL of them weaker than the average Aes Sedai. Personally, I think that is a significant underestimation of their strength, as it is unlikely that ALL 6 women selected to shield a false Dragon would be below average strength, but I am willing to assume that, to prove my point.

By making them only 1.5 times Dagian's strength, I am saying that on average, they are ALL significantly weaker than the average Aes Sedai, who is about twice Dagian's strength.

So the calculation that makes Nynaeve 8 times as strong as Dagian is an extremely conservative one using this logic.

We have to take a step back at this point to remember that all we are doing here is to try and compare Nynaeve's strength to that of the 6 women who shielded Logain. Looking at the number of women who shielded Semirhage is irrelevant, because RJ has stated that it is much more difficult to shield someone of the opposite sex, than it is to shield someone of the same gender.

So we want to compare apples with apples here. 5 women conservatively estimated to each be 1.5 times Dagian's strength would have struggled to shield Logain, just like Nynaeve was barely able to shield him. So based on this comparisn, Nynaeve's strength would appear to be comparative to that of these 5 women.

Making her at least 8 times stronger than Daigian, 4 times stronger than the average Aes Sedai, and almost 3 times stronger than Moiraine. Even if Egwene is then close to twice as strong as Moiraine, this would make Nynaeve approximately 50% stronger than Egwene, which has been my contention all along.

This would fit the bonfire candle quote.

It would fit Aviendha's reference to Egwene being able to overwhelm Amys and Melaine combined.

It would fit with the fact that Dagian is half as strong as the average sister and a third as strong as Moiraine.

And it would fit with Nynaeve being able to duplicate the shielding effect of 5 linked sisters on Logain. Bearing in mind that there are benefits to a linked shield which makes it even HARDER to break than that of a single individual shielder.

It really does fit the evidence perfectly.

This message last edited by Shannow on 27/01/2011 at 09:50:44 PM
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Could Norla be the other woman stronger than Nynaeve? - 22/01/2011 06:54:36 PM 2048 Views
It's a nice idea, really - 22/01/2011 07:04:03 PM 1103 Views
we don't know the strength difference between Cadsuane and Nynaeve - 22/01/2011 08:55:48 PM 1037 Views
Nynaeve is of course roughly twice as strong as Cadsuane... - 24/01/2011 10:26:49 PM 1137 Views
Still sticking to the nonsense I see... - 25/01/2011 12:14:12 AM 945 Views
you and your assumptions crack me up ... there is zero evidence that Nyn is 2x Cadsuane - 26/01/2011 04:41:33 PM 965 Views
Waits for the candle flame vs. bonfire quote to appear... - 26/01/2011 05:01:28 PM 997 Views
*blows out the friggin candle* ... why does anyone take EoTW Moiraine quotes seriously? - 26/01/2011 09:41:53 PM 971 Views
tGH, but I agree... - 27/01/2011 04:58:08 AM 1044 Views
Re: tGH, but I agree... - 27/01/2011 07:29:15 AM 897 Views
I think it's a matter of perspective too - 27/01/2011 05:12:29 PM 851 Views
Nynaeve temporarily holds Logain shielded on her own, while 5 average strength Aes Sedai cannot... - 27/01/2011 05:35:26 PM 759 Views
Another inconsistency ... since 4 women held a shield on Rand who is Stronger than Logain EDIT - 27/01/2011 07:47:31 PM 848 Views
Not an inconsistency and if you analyse it... - 27/01/2011 08:21:39 PM 1080 Views
I'm not dismissing the quote I'm saying 6 weak women held Logain - 27/01/2011 09:21:34 PM 891 Views
Circular logic... - 27/01/2011 09:49:40 PM 959 Views
Wait... what? - 27/01/2011 11:16:32 PM 816 Views
Re: Wait... what? - 28/01/2011 12:26:22 AM 767 Views
Nope... - 28/01/2011 01:24:18 AM 852 Views
Yeah, but... - 28/01/2011 12:53:26 PM 910 Views
Therer is a direct quote in New Spring - 28/01/2011 02:20:40 PM 882 Views
Yup... *NM* - 28/01/2011 02:42:15 PM 470 Views
Thanks - 28/01/2011 04:05:47 PM 930 Views
Not really the case though - 28/01/2011 04:54:28 PM 724 Views
That's your evidence? You mean like Caddy defers to Nynaeve? - 28/01/2011 02:29:46 PM 818 Views
So Elayne is Cadsunae in you stupid play? - 28/01/2011 02:44:07 PM 788 Views
Getting hot under the collar and irrational again, I see... - 28/01/2011 03:01:14 PM 739 Views
right tGH but still! *NM* - 27/01/2011 04:02:57 PM 414 Views
It will be someone who was alive at some point during the series... - 22/01/2011 07:11:57 PM 1045 Views
it's obviously a stretch, just a random thought - 22/01/2011 08:26:49 PM 1052 Views
Possibly? But unlikely. - 23/01/2011 11:12:01 PM 822 Views
The 6 are... - 24/01/2011 10:09:33 PM 1144 Views
I disagree. If anything Semirhage is at the same strength level - 24/01/2011 11:10:30 PM 912 Views
Agree and disagree... - 25/01/2011 10:44:26 AM 870 Views
Re: Agree and disagree... - 25/01/2011 11:04:11 PM 802 Views
I didn't say Semirhage is definitely one of the 6, but his answer leaves it as a viable possibility. - 26/01/2011 07:36:52 AM 921 Views
Not really - 26/01/2011 05:15:59 PM 801 Views
Lanfear and Cyndane are the same person *NM* - 25/01/2011 10:24:15 AM 405 Views
Re: The 6 are... - 25/01/2011 10:51:40 PM 928 Views
I agree. - 24/01/2011 03:56:00 PM 814 Views
Possible... - 25/01/2011 12:17:42 AM 785 Views
none whatsoever ... purely speculating here *NM* - 26/01/2011 04:44:15 PM 357 Views
Not necessarily - 25/01/2011 08:07:02 PM 734 Views
nah - 25/01/2011 10:55:10 PM 1060 Views
it's obvious that Norla made her "earn" the ornaments - 26/01/2011 04:47:32 PM 955 Views
Re: it's obvious that Norla made her "earn" the ornaments - 26/01/2011 05:17:16 PM 840 Views
I can see that as a possibility too - 26/01/2011 10:22:02 PM 843 Views
Re: I can see that as a possibility too - 27/01/2011 07:38:31 AM 937 Views
we'll always disagree I suppose - 27/01/2011 04:47:42 PM 890 Views
Strongest since the breaking? I disagree - 19/08/2011 01:09:37 PM 1062 Views
I doubt it. - 26/01/2011 03:53:33 AM 858 Views
Could Norla be the other woman stronger than Nynaeve? - 26/01/2011 09:31:36 AM 951 Views

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