Wheel of Time Messageboard: Small correction - It has not been established that Alivia is stronger than Cyndane unaided... by Shannow

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Small correction - It has not been established that Alivia is stronger than Cyndane unaided... Shannow Send a noteboard - 02/01/2011 06:02:53 PM

Of course there is always the 'luck of the dice' chance, but other than that it really makes little sense that Cyndane was able to defeat Alivia so handily.

Let's look at some of the facts.

1) Alivia was stronger than Cyndane, likely even without her angreal.

2) Alivia had a fairly powerful angreal which was multiplying her strength by at least 3 times, likely maybe 4-5 times or more. Cyndane had NO angreal.

3) Alivia had a ter'angreal to unravel any weaves directed against her directly (similar to Mat's) where she need not even spare the effort to slice it. So the possibility of Cyndane shielding her (even never mind the angreal) would be virtually impossible.

4) Alivia frightens Nynaeve with her strength, and Nynaeve has come face to face with several Forsaken.

5) Alivia is approx 400 years old, likely older than Cyndane ie Lanfear was and since the age of 12 or 13 she has been trained solely to be used as a weapon. Cyndane may know more weaves, but no reason to believe she knows more battle weaves.

6) Alivia commented that The Asha'man may be called weapons, but she was confident that she was far, far more lethal of a weapon.

Basically between her 388 years of battle experience, her ter'angreal and her quite powerful angreal it should have been like Rand dealing with Damer Flinn, ie: No Contest. Alivia should have actually been able to shield her quite easily.

Besides luck, and RJ just making Cyndane win how can you explain how Alivia came off the big loser in that fight?

I agree with the point you are making in that it seems unlikely that Cyndane should have been able to survive against someone 3 or 4 times her strength (with the bracelet angreal amplifying Alivia's strength).

The only error I would like to point out is where you stated that Alivia is stronger than Cyndane even without an angreal. This has not been established.

Which of Alivia or Cyndane is the stronger channeler is still unknown. Cyndane might well be stronger than Alivia, seeing as she is stronger than any other female Forsaken barring Lanfear.

Either way, the difference will most likely not be great, and it would not have affected the outcome of a battle where Alivia had an angreal multiplying her strength by 3 or 4 times.

But since the strength rankings are rather important to me, I just wanted to point this out.

We know there are 6 female channelers stronger than Nynaeve. Listing only these top 7 women, the strength ranking might well be:

Lanfear
Cyndane
Alivia
Graendal/Sharina
Semirhage/Nynaeve/Talaan
Mesaana
Moghedien

Note that while Sanderson was certain of Nynaeve's "seventh place" (maybe a symbolic position picked by RJ), he seemed uncertain about the identities of the women above Nynaeve.

His IMPRESSION was that Nynaeve was stronger than Semirhage, but he was not 100% sure of this. Additionally, he was not even aware that Cyndane was one of these 6 women, although she without question is stronger than Nynaeve.

What we know for sure, is that RJ decided that there would be precisely 6 women stronger than Nynaeve. Who they are exactly is still uncertain.

Cyndane is stronger than Graendal, (we don't know how much stronger), and might well be stronger than Alivia as well, seeing as Graendal is stronger than Nynaeve, clearly making Cyndane AT LEAST CONSIDERABLY stronger than Nynaeve, which is the description given to Alivia's strength.

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How did Cyndane defeat Alivia? malekithe - 31/12/2010 08:03:39 PM 3590 Views

As RJ said, Cyndane knows a LOT more about the OP darius_sedai - 31/12/2010 08:33:47 PM 1661 Views

Re: As RJ said, Cyndane knows a LOT more about the OP malekithe - 31/12/2010 11:54:57 PM 1403 Views

RJ said this .. Go look at his quotes *NM* darius_sedai - 01/01/2011 05:59:37 AM 881 Views

Re: RJ said this .. Go look at his quotes malekithe - 01/01/2011 06:43:09 AM 1256 Views

Dude, he calls it out specifically. Cyndane beat Alivia because of her skill darius_sedai - 01/01/2011 03:22:48 PM 1260 Views

Search for "Alivia" moratcorlm - 01/01/2011 05:58:53 PM 1193 Views

nothing on either url *NM* malekithe - 01/01/2011 11:02:05 PM 548 Views

Try spelling it correctly then moratcorlm - 02/01/2011 01:30:23 AM 1141 Views

I did, maybe you made the mistake malekithe - 02/01/2011 07:13:54 PM 966 Views

Re: I did, maybe you made the mistake moratcorlm - 02/01/2011 07:51:22 PM 1060 Views

Here are few other quotes establishing how little Alivia knows of the OP darius_sedai - 02/01/2011 07:39:36 PM 1213 Views

Damane don't know about reversed weaves Skeeve the Great - 31/12/2010 09:56:51 PM 1307 Views

Re: Damane don't know about reversed weaves malekithe - 31/12/2010 11:48:15 PM 1146 Views

Re: Damane don't know about reversed weaves Demortae - 01/01/2011 01:18:50 AM 1102 Views

How did *Alivia* survive? redqueen - 01/01/2011 12:45:29 AM 1438 Views

Re: How did *Alivia* survive? malekithe - 01/01/2011 01:26:09 AM 1244 Views

Yes, odd. redqueen - 01/01/2011 01:45:01 AM 1171 Views

Nicola wasn't the dragon reborn with the pattern bending around her Helene - 02/01/2011 12:24:50 PM 1065 Views

Not really ... Rand has had LTT knowledge leaking into his head for a long time darius_sedai - 02/01/2011 07:13:41 PM 1062 Views

reversed weaves are only useful when dealing with someone who doesn't know they exist. Onarishma - 03/01/2011 07:51:01 PM 982 Views

Depends on the circumstances really darius_sedai - 04/01/2011 02:17:29 PM 1125 Views

but why would she have any idea that Nynaeve would be able to resist her. Onarishma - 10/01/2011 07:30:49 PM 1065 Views

Well she did get attacked right off the bat... Pretty indicative that Nyn resist her compulsion darius_sedai - 11/01/2011 12:56:51 AM 1039 Views

Exactly. which is why she didn't have time to do any "fancy" and time consuming reversing. Onarishma - 11/01/2011 03:23:50 PM 1196 Views

that's where she made her mistake darius_sedai - 11/01/2011 04:47:56 PM 1012 Views

It would be these memories, his t'a'veren nature & sheer luck/plot necessity that gave him the edge RugbyPlayingAshaman - 03/01/2011 10:32:43 PM 1108 Views

Well that was always going to happen DrJacJacMcScrumptious - 03/01/2011 11:41:22 PM 1040 Views

Yes. As I said, it would have been a very different series. Thanks for going into detail

! RugbyPlayingAshaman - 04/01/2011 04:47:51 PM 1014 Views

agreed darius_sedai - 04/01/2011 02:18:23 PM 1109 Views

Re: How did Cyndane defeat Alivia? damer - 01/01/2011 12:56:54 AM 1229 Views

Re: How did Cyndane defeat Alivia? Demortae - 01/01/2011 01:13:39 AM 1176 Views

She's just that good ˥ɐ ʎpu∀ɹ - 01/01/2011 01:48:26 AM 1120 Views

magic *NM* fistofpainx - 01/01/2011 08:17:16 PM 510 Views

Cyndane injured Alivia, yes, but Alivia fought Cyndane off. Heiko - 02/01/2011 12:36:12 AM 1173 Views

Re: Cyndane injured Alivia, yes, but Alivia fought Cyndane off. Voscaia Sedai - 02/01/2011 09:56:34 AM 1128 Views

Yup. Joel - 02/01/2011 03:12:39 PM 1076 Views

Small correction - It has not been established that Alivia is stronger than Cyndane unaided... Shannow - 02/01/2011 06:02:53 PM 1077 Views

Alivia has little experience fighting channellers, unlike Lanfear (most likely)... DomA - 03/01/2011 12:56:43 AM 1439 Views

I agree with you moratcorlm - 03/01/2011 01:08:35 AM 1090 Views

Demandred wasn't commenting on Cadsuane's paralis net, but on her little bird saidin detector... Shannow - 03/01/2011 07:01:08 AM 1191 Views

Where do you get this idea? *NM* moratcorlm - 03/01/2011 07:19:50 PM 618 Views

Well, he's definitely right he was commenting on one of the specific ter'angreal in her "net". DomA - 03/01/2011 10:51:09 PM 1125 Views

I'm thinking there are 2 items that break webs in different ways darius_sedai - 04/01/2011 07:51:46 PM 1087 Views

Very interesting point. I never noticed that before... Shannow - 05/01/2011 08:02:52 AM 1031 Views

Cadsuane has two types of weavebreakers... fionwe1987 - 05/01/2011 12:51:38 PM 959 Views

inconclusive ... the ornament may be the same one she used to disrupt Semirhage darius_sedai - 05/01/2011 04:09:39 PM 1034 Views

I'm confused... fionwe1987 - 05/01/2011 06:15:06 PM 1015 Views

Why should Cadsuane's "distance" unraveler not also go cold at nearby channeling? Shannow - 05/01/2011 06:51:49 PM 1020 Views

I'd buy this. Myrdhyn - 05/01/2011 07:12:50 PM 992 Views

Except Cyndane had never heard of a ter'angreal that can unravel weaves... Shannow - 05/01/2011 07:18:58 PM 914 Views

Not necessarily. Myrdhyn - 05/01/2011 09:26:49 PM 1019 Views

I doubt it since LTT claims they created the "first" ones in the AOL darius_sedai - 08/01/2011 05:23:53 PM 973 Views

The first paralis nets, not necessarily the first weave breakers. Myrdhyn - 09/01/2011 09:53:56 PM 1026 Views

Maybe, but that's getting really convoluted darius_sedai - 10/01/2011 03:36:17 AM 898 Views

Agreed Myrdhyn - 10/01/2011 05:14:45 PM 995 Views

I don't remember if the AS Symbol was used prior to the AOL ... if so then it's possible *NM* darius_sedai - 10/01/2011 05:55:38 PM 554 Views

It would fit the various scenarios if she had 2 kinds ... darius_sedai - 05/01/2011 03:53:48 PM 980 Views

Because Demandred said so... Shannow - 04/01/2011 07:28:56 AM 1062 Views

Re: Because Demandred said so... moratcorlm - 04/01/2011 08:45:38 AM 1087 Views

Well there you have it, then... Shannow - 04/01/2011 09:24:38 AM 947 Views

Contortions moratcorlm - 04/01/2011 09:56:11 AM 7910 Views

If anyone made a mistake, it was Sanderson, not RJ. Shannow - 04/01/2011 10:07:30 AM 947 Views

Re: If anyone made a mistake, it was Sanderson, not RJ. moratcorlm - 04/01/2011 10:35:45 AM 1126 Views

I don't think Rand is referring to the system as an indivisible whole. Shannow - 04/01/2011 10:45:24 AM 1064 Views

Besides, he knew of the Well from their previous visit to Far Madding... Shannow - 04/01/2011 11:18:39 AM 1060 Views

It's also possible that a Paralis Net is simply a name for any personal system darius_sedai - 04/01/2011 09:23:18 PM 1182 Views

I agree. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 10/01/2011 07:08:19 PM 1034 Views

Re: Demandred wasn't commenting on Cadsuane's paralis net, but on her little bird saidin detector... DomA - 03/01/2011 10:01:00 PM 1085 Views

I cannot remember Semirhage's reference to a paralis net, but if she did do so, it is problematic... Shannow - 04/01/2011 07:31:24 AM 1012 Views

It's a throw-away line moratcorlm - 04/01/2011 08:48:25 AM 1119 Views

I had the opposite view of the WO Dreamwalkers vs the Wolves in the Wolf-dream RugbyPlayingAshaman - 04/01/2011 05:07:56 PM 1093 Views

Agreed. Knowledge is power when it comes to channeling. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 03/01/2011 10:26:37 PM 1030 Views

Re: Agreed. Knowledge is power when it comes to channeling. DomA - 03/01/2011 11:07:20 PM 1119 Views

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<quote id="182333">
<quote id="182110">Of course there is always the 'luck of the dice' chance, but other than that it really makes little sense that Cyndane was able to defeat Alivia so handily.

Let's look at some of the facts.

1) Alivia was stronger than Cyndane, likely even without her angreal.

2) Alivia had a fairly powerful angreal which was multiplying her strength by at least 3 times, likely maybe 4-5 times or more. Cyndane had NO angreal.

3) Alivia had a ter'angreal to unravel any weaves directed against her directly (similar to Mat's) where she need not even spare the effort to slice it. So the possibility of Cyndane shielding her (even never mind the angreal) would be virtually impossible.

4) Alivia frightens Nynaeve with her strength, and Nynaeve has come face to face with several Forsaken.

5) Alivia is approx 400 years old, likely older than Cyndane ie Lanfear was and since the age of 12 or 13 she has been trained solely to be used as a weapon. Cyndane may know more weaves, but no reason to believe she knows more battle weaves.

6) Alivia commented that The Asha'man may be called weapons, but she was confident that she was far, far more lethal of a weapon.

Basically between her 388 years of battle experience, her ter'angreal and her quite powerful angreal it should have been like Rand dealing with Damer Flinn, ie: No Contest. Alivia should have actually been able to shield her quite easily.

Besides luck, and RJ just making Cyndane win how can you explain how Alivia came off the big loser in that fight?</quote>

The only error I would like to point out is where you stated that Alivia is stronger than Cyndane even without an angreal. This has not been established.

Which of Alivia or Cyndane is the stronger channeler is still unknown. Cyndane might well be stronger than Alivia, seeing as she is stronger than any other female Forsaken barring Lanfear.

Either way, the difference will most likely not be great, and it would not have affected the outcome of a battle where Alivia had an angreal multiplying her strength by 3 or 4 times.

But since the strength rankings are rather important to me, I just wanted to point this out.

We know there are 6 female channelers stronger than Nynaeve. Listing only these top 7 women, the strength ranking might well be:

Lanfear
Cyndane
Alivia
Graendal/Sharina
Semirhage/Nynaeve/Talaan
Mesaana
Moghedien

Note that while Sanderson was certain of Nynaeve's "seventh place" (maybe a symbolic position picked by RJ), he seemed uncertain about the identities of the women above Nynaeve.

His IMPRESSION was that Nynaeve was stronger than Semirhage, but he was not 100% sure of this. Additionally, he was not even aware that Cyndane was one of these 6 women, although she without question is stronger than Nynaeve.

What we know for sure, is that RJ decided that there would be precisely 6 women stronger than Nynaeve. Who they are exactly is still uncertain.

Cyndane is stronger than Graendal, (we don't know how much stronger), and might well be stronger than Alivia as well, seeing as Graendal is stronger than Nynaeve, clearly making Cyndane AT LEAST CONSIDERABLY stronger than Nynaeve, which is the description given to Alivia's strength.

</quote>

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