Wish I'd read this sooner, 'cos I agree on several points.
Joel Send a noteboard - 29/12/2010 03:38:59 AM
I used to think, as liltempest does, that Egwene would contine to behave like an entitled ass throughout the series and never be called to account for it. But the recent books have caused me to veer towards your way of thinkng.
I mean, RJ and I were obviously very different people with very different worldviews. His take on the battle of the sexes has always exasperated me, and the tragic death of the Amayar moved me not a bit.
That said, I also thought that Perrin throwing away his axe and killing people with a hammer was an empty gesture and wondered what the author was thinking with that scene. Turns out RJ was well aware of how futile a gesture it was and intended it more as a symbol of Perrin's continued indecisiveness. As Hopper described it, he was jumping back and forth over the same fence.
Cadsuane's relationship with Rand was another thing that made me doubt RJ and I would see eye to eye on much of anything. Her showing up to smack sense into Rand seemed very deus ex machina, and I felt that having some outside force solve all Rand's problems for him would devalue him as the protagonist. Turns out RJ was well aware of that too, and Rand would ultimately be forced to solve his own mental issues.
Stuff like that has given me renewed faith that Egwene's total lack of comeuppance was very deliberate on the author's part. After all, he was fully aware that the supergirls behaved shittily towards Mat way back in TDR, since he had Nynaeve and Elayne made to apologise for it. Egwene's omission from that scene wasn't an accident IMO.
That she has always gotten her way, that no-one has really criticised her for her moral and tactical shortcomings, these things were intended to be combined with her antagonistic relationship with Rand to inspire her to confront him at the Fields of Merrilor and try to assume command of the war effort from him. As she is "obliquely" aware she is doing. Any other Amyrlin would be wary of confronting the Dragon Reborn at this stage. They'd resort to subtle manipulation like that seen from the Tower and rebel embassies in LOC, all vague promises and vaguer threats. And thats a conflict that they might even win, since such games are very much not Rand's style. But to stage her coup directly and openly like this? That plays to Rand's strengths, and only Egwene would be self-absorbed enough and have enough disdain for Rand to do that.
Its going to backfire on her. Her dream of the pretty and cracked sphere shattering is about the White Tower, not the Seals. By Merrilor's end I suspect the Amyrlin will have been forced to bow to the Dragon's authority. Recent developements in the series have renewed my faith in that. RJ knew what he was doing, with Perrin and Cadsuade, and yes, with Egwene too.
I mean, RJ and I were obviously very different people with very different worldviews. His take on the battle of the sexes has always exasperated me, and the tragic death of the Amayar moved me not a bit.
That said, I also thought that Perrin throwing away his axe and killing people with a hammer was an empty gesture and wondered what the author was thinking with that scene. Turns out RJ was well aware of how futile a gesture it was and intended it more as a symbol of Perrin's continued indecisiveness. As Hopper described it, he was jumping back and forth over the same fence.
Cadsuane's relationship with Rand was another thing that made me doubt RJ and I would see eye to eye on much of anything. Her showing up to smack sense into Rand seemed very deus ex machina, and I felt that having some outside force solve all Rand's problems for him would devalue him as the protagonist. Turns out RJ was well aware of that too, and Rand would ultimately be forced to solve his own mental issues.
Stuff like that has given me renewed faith that Egwene's total lack of comeuppance was very deliberate on the author's part. After all, he was fully aware that the supergirls behaved shittily towards Mat way back in TDR, since he had Nynaeve and Elayne made to apologise for it. Egwene's omission from that scene wasn't an accident IMO.
That she has always gotten her way, that no-one has really criticised her for her moral and tactical shortcomings, these things were intended to be combined with her antagonistic relationship with Rand to inspire her to confront him at the Fields of Merrilor and try to assume command of the war effort from him. As she is "obliquely" aware she is doing. Any other Amyrlin would be wary of confronting the Dragon Reborn at this stage. They'd resort to subtle manipulation like that seen from the Tower and rebel embassies in LOC, all vague promises and vaguer threats. And thats a conflict that they might even win, since such games are very much not Rand's style. But to stage her coup directly and openly like this? That plays to Rand's strengths, and only Egwene would be self-absorbed enough and have enough disdain for Rand to do that.
Its going to backfire on her. Her dream of the pretty and cracked sphere shattering is about the White Tower, not the Seals. By Merrilor's end I suspect the Amyrlin will have been forced to bow to the Dragon's authority. Recent developements in the series have renewed my faith in that. RJ knew what he was doing, with Perrin and Cadsuade, and yes, with Egwene too.
I was holding off until I could do a re-read since fionwe seemed so SURE Egwene was sure of her Dream. The result is a very long response (boo!) filled with a lot of quotes from the book (yea!) The biggest things are that
1) If you read the quoted sections they seem to scream "FATAL FLAW!" My personal favorite is where she thinks that Nynaeve usually sees the right way to do things as long as it doesn't involve admitting she's wrong; the whole chapter's a great set up for Egwenes fall, but given that she thinks the preceding regarding Nynaeves support for Rand breaking the seals it's just that much more amusing.
2) Her present course seems to make your last statement inevitably correct; she's on a collision course with the Creator and there's no question who'll come out on top in that.
3) She now knows that the Taint is gone but still see her all encompassing future Tar Valon as an Old Girls Club. That's neither reasonable nor tenable if channeling survives Tarmon Gaidon; men and women are far more effective together (and not just becuase the women can form links of more than thirteen then) it's absurd to think there'll be two wholly independent groups doomed to constant fighting for dominance, and likely for both those reasons there was ONE Aes Sedai organization in the AoL.
I personally think Logain will be the next Amyrlin, and very soon; hopefully the Three Oaths will go with Egwene. She's "obliquely" aware of so much less than she imagines that she only begins to figure out the role Rand has set for her near the end of performing it, and never guesses his full intent. However, that's the same fatal flaw that kept Pedron Niall and Elaida from being great assets to the Light instead of very real threats. Unless she backs down and endures a very public and grating humiliation (or is revealed to be suffering lingering manipulation by Aran'gar), my only question is whether she'll be turned by a circle before she's forever broken.
Honorbound and honored to be Bonded to Mahtaliel Sedai
Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.
Love still can't be coerced.
Please Don't Eat the Newbies!
LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.
Love still can't be coerced.
Please Don't Eat the Newbies!
LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
The significance of 23 stars (TOM Spoilers)
14/12/2010 11:48:55 PM
- 3721 Views
It would be a first...
15/12/2010 02:46:33 AM
- 1575 Views
Re: It would be a first...
15/12/2010 04:39:17 AM
- 1200 Views
I think people aren't giving Egwene enough credit.
15/12/2010 04:59:09 AM
- 1254 Views
She's not bringing everyone for a discussion, but for leverage to force him to change his mind.
19/12/2010 09:54:49 PM
- 1178 Views
20/12/2010 01:50:39 AM
- 1174 Views
Re:
20/12/2010 04:37:24 AM
- 1018 Views
Sadly, the thing you reference four times isn't actually anywhere in the book.
29/12/2010 03:17:15 AM
- 1246 Views
+1
29/12/2010 07:10:41 AM
- 1135 Views
I think the Tower needs a singular leader, though you may be right.
29/12/2010 12:51:19 PM
- 1139 Views
Re: It would be a first...
15/12/2010 12:43:49 PM
- 1614 Views
Dear lord, you wrote the Egwene haters' ultimate fantasy right there
19/12/2010 01:41:55 AM
- 1124 Views
One problematic issue...This assumes the Dark One cannot hold himself back once the Seals are broken
15/12/2010 07:57:53 AM
- 1258 Views
Err, it's the other way around
15/12/2010 09:00:38 AM
- 1187 Views
I see. It's the same thing, really, just looking at it from the opposite perspective...
15/12/2010 09:14:22 AM
- 1264 Views
Don't you know it's all about the posturing
15/12/2010 09:40:15 AM
- 1227 Views
agreed, it'd also be a terribly boring book to read if the DO was defensive
15/12/2010 09:56:37 AM
- 1233 Views
It's more that you take it out of context
15/12/2010 11:32:36 AM
- 1237 Views
The DO will be forced to act because breaking the seals is inherently an attempt to seal the bore...
15/12/2010 08:51:38 PM
- 1152 Views
While I agree overall, I think this is a case where Rand/TDR mistakes his role
15/12/2010 05:37:25 PM
- 1017 Views
I think Egwene is successful and Rand has to go to the Seanchan for female channeler assistance
18/12/2010 12:47:54 AM
- 1161 Views
Egwene's dream seems a little more personal than that
18/12/2010 04:55:37 AM
- 1003 Views
Yes
18/12/2010 07:57:35 AM
- 1034 Views
Actually, I think Tuon will capture her, and then release her. *NM*
18/12/2010 02:47:42 PM
- 557 Views
Re: It would be a first...
18/12/2010 02:48:40 PM
- 1044 Views
wow. I'm not an egwene hater but I will if the freaking idiot sitters & she are the stars
15/12/2010 12:02:12 PM
- 1127 Views
I wish
16/12/2010 08:29:23 PM
- 1082 Views
That's just it: Egwene is not only wrong, she's narratively wrong.
19/12/2010 11:30:35 PM
- 1480 Views
Man, that's the best take on Egwene I have ever read.
20/12/2010 12:38:07 AM
- 1070 Views
Re: That's just it: Egwene is not only wrong, she's narratively wrong.
20/12/2010 04:39:57 PM
- 1169 Views
Wish I'd read this sooner, 'cos I agree on several points.
29/12/2010 03:38:59 AM
- 1107 Views
Re: Wish I'd read this sooner, 'cos I agree on several points.
29/12/2010 07:32:49 AM
- 1066 Views
It seems an odd oversight, yes; I can't even recall her being Delved when the truth was revealed.
29/12/2010 12:40:00 PM
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Ensure this value has at most 100 characters (it has 101).
29/12/2010 03:00:22 PM
- 2819 Views
Ah, good point; Rand might have to do the job himself.
29/12/2010 06:43:44 PM
- 1065 Views
More likely to be Flinn.
29/12/2010 08:18:19 PM
- 1088 Views
Maybe, once he knows the signs and techniques.
30/12/2010 03:10:27 PM
- 1083 Views
Not sure if Rand had seized the source yet - he wouldn't have wanted to do it in front of Ramshalan
30/12/2010 03:15:43 PM
- 1038 Views
Not only must I agree with you, but I think you've divined Egwenes ultimate destiny.
29/12/2010 03:41:59 AM
- 1116 Views