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Wish I'd read this sooner, 'cos I agree on several points. Joel Send a noteboard - 29/12/2010 03:38:59 AM
I used to think, as liltempest does, that Egwene would contine to behave like an entitled ass throughout the series and never be called to account for it. But the recent books have caused me to veer towards your way of thinkng.

I mean, RJ and I were obviously very different people with very different worldviews. His take on the battle of the sexes has always exasperated me, and the tragic death of the Amayar moved me not a bit.

That said, I also thought that Perrin throwing away his axe and killing people with a hammer was an empty gesture and wondered what the author was thinking with that scene. Turns out RJ was well aware of how futile a gesture it was and intended it more as a symbol of Perrin's continued indecisiveness. As Hopper described it, he was jumping back and forth over the same fence.

Cadsuane's relationship with Rand was another thing that made me doubt RJ and I would see eye to eye on much of anything. Her showing up to smack sense into Rand seemed very deus ex machina, and I felt that having some outside force solve all Rand's problems for him would devalue him as the protagonist. Turns out RJ was well aware of that too, and Rand would ultimately be forced to solve his own mental issues.

Stuff like that has given me renewed faith that Egwene's total lack of comeuppance was very deliberate on the author's part. After all, he was fully aware that the supergirls behaved shittily towards Mat way back in TDR, since he had Nynaeve and Elayne made to apologise for it. Egwene's omission from that scene wasn't an accident IMO.

That she has always gotten her way, that no-one has really criticised her for her moral and tactical shortcomings, these things were intended to be combined with her antagonistic relationship with Rand to inspire her to confront him at the Fields of Merrilor and try to assume command of the war effort from him. As she is "obliquely" aware she is doing. Any other Amyrlin would be wary of confronting the Dragon Reborn at this stage. They'd resort to subtle manipulation like that seen from the Tower and rebel embassies in LOC, all vague promises and vaguer threats. And thats a conflict that they might even win, since such games are very much not Rand's style. But to stage her coup directly and openly like this? That plays to Rand's strengths, and only Egwene would be self-absorbed enough and have enough disdain for Rand to do that.

Its going to backfire on her. Her dream of the pretty and cracked sphere shattering is about the White Tower, not the Seals. By Merrilor's end I suspect the Amyrlin will have been forced to bow to the Dragon's authority. Recent developements in the series have renewed my faith in that. RJ knew what he was doing, with Perrin and Cadsuade, and yes, with Egwene too.

I was holding off until I could do a re-read since fionwe seemed so SURE Egwene was sure of her Dream. The result is a very long response (boo!) filled with a lot of quotes from the book (yea!) The biggest things are that

1) If you read the quoted sections they seem to scream "FATAL FLAW!" My personal favorite is where she thinks that Nynaeve usually sees the right way to do things as long as it doesn't involve admitting she's wrong; the whole chapter's a great set up for Egwenes fall, but given that she thinks the preceding regarding Nynaeves support for Rand breaking the seals it's just that much more amusing.

2) Her present course seems to make your last statement inevitably correct; she's on a collision course with the Creator and there's no question who'll come out on top in that.

3) She now knows that the Taint is gone but still see her all encompassing future Tar Valon as an Old Girls Club. That's neither reasonable nor tenable if channeling survives Tarmon Gaidon; men and women are far more effective together (and not just becuase the women can form links of more than thirteen then) it's absurd to think there'll be two wholly independent groups doomed to constant fighting for dominance, and likely for both those reasons there was ONE Aes Sedai organization in the AoL.

I personally think Logain will be the next Amyrlin, and very soon; hopefully the Three Oaths will go with Egwene. She's "obliquely" aware of so much less than she imagines that she only begins to figure out the role Rand has set for her near the end of performing it, and never guesses his full intent. However, that's the same fatal flaw that kept Pedron Niall and Elaida from being great assets to the Light instead of very real threats. Unless she backs down and endures a very public and grating humiliation (or is revealed to be suffering lingering manipulation by Aran'gar), my only question is whether she'll be turned by a circle before she's forever broken.
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The significance of 23 stars (TOM Spoilers) - 14/12/2010 11:48:55 PM 3937 Views
It would be a first... - 15/12/2010 02:46:33 AM 1710 Views
Re: It would be a first... - 15/12/2010 04:39:17 AM 1344 Views
I think people aren't giving Egwene enough credit. - 15/12/2010 04:59:09 AM 1386 Views
She's not bringing everyone for a discussion, but for leverage to force him to change his mind. - 19/12/2010 09:54:49 PM 1312 Views
- 20/12/2010 01:50:39 AM 1315 Views
Re: - 20/12/2010 04:37:24 AM 1149 Views
Huh? - 20/12/2010 05:09:39 AM 1207 Views
I find the theory - 20/12/2010 09:18:34 AM 1153 Views
That's a new one to me - 20/12/2010 09:45:09 AM 1261 Views
Your theory is very unlikely - 20/12/2010 09:50:26 AM 1263 Views
If it was a plant, why would it be so oblique? - 29/12/2010 07:22:58 AM 1110 Views
Re: - 20/12/2010 08:09:53 PM 1323 Views
That's not true. - 21/12/2010 02:22:50 AM 1389 Views
Sadly, the thing you reference four times isn't actually anywhere in the book. - 29/12/2010 03:17:15 AM 1520 Views
+1 - 29/12/2010 07:10:41 AM 1269 Views
Don't take this the wrong way, but I think I love you. (edited) - 29/12/2010 06:43:32 PM 1539 Views
Ah, if only I could sell the concept of sister-wives.... - 29/12/2010 07:09:56 PM 1163 Views
Re: It would be a first... - 15/12/2010 12:43:49 PM 1744 Views
Dear lord, you wrote the Egwene haters' ultimate fantasy right there - 19/12/2010 01:41:55 AM 1268 Views
Don't think of use as Egwene haters... - 19/12/2010 04:32:11 AM 1223 Views
One problematic issue...This assumes the Dark One cannot hold himself back once the Seals are broken - 15/12/2010 07:57:53 AM 1418 Views
Err, it's the other way around - 15/12/2010 09:00:38 AM 1317 Views
I see. It's the same thing, really, just looking at it from the opposite perspective... - 15/12/2010 09:14:22 AM 1391 Views
Don't you know it's all about the posturing - 15/12/2010 09:40:15 AM 1369 Views
It's more that you take it out of context - 15/12/2010 11:32:36 AM 1377 Views
So then... - 15/12/2010 06:35:02 PM 1349 Views
Re: So then... - 16/12/2010 03:39:19 AM 1278 Views
Re: So then... - 16/12/2010 08:11:37 AM 1256 Views
Mierin - 16/12/2010 08:13:55 AM 1453 Views
It would be a good strategy for a conventional war, but - 16/12/2010 07:32:30 AM 1306 Views
Nature of the DO - 15/12/2010 10:38:24 PM 1182 Views
While I agree overall, I think this is a case where Rand/TDR mistakes his role - 15/12/2010 05:37:25 PM 1160 Views
I don't see why Egwene would oppose his plan - 15/12/2010 06:17:47 PM 1171 Views
I don't think that's the issue. - 15/12/2010 07:31:03 PM 1241 Views
I think Egwene is successful and Rand has to go to the Seanchan for female channeler assistance - 18/12/2010 12:47:54 AM 1294 Views
Egwene's dream seems a little more personal than that - 18/12/2010 04:55:37 AM 1137 Views
Yes - 18/12/2010 07:57:35 AM 1159 Views
Actually, I think Tuon will capture her, and then release her. *NM* - 18/12/2010 02:47:42 PM 620 Views
Re: It would be a first... - 18/12/2010 02:48:40 PM 1265 Views
Re: It would be a first... - 18/12/2010 03:28:57 PM 1235 Views
Those are vewings and prophesies... - 18/12/2010 03:43:55 PM 1021 Views
I wish - 16/12/2010 08:29:23 PM 1233 Views
That's just it: Egwene is not only wrong, she's narratively wrong. - 19/12/2010 11:30:35 PM 1603 Views
Man, that's the best take on Egwene I have ever read. - 20/12/2010 12:38:07 AM 1219 Views
+1 - 20/12/2010 01:07:24 AM 1284 Views
You may be onto something there. - 20/12/2010 01:35:46 AM 1230 Views
Thanks. - 20/12/2010 01:24:42 AM 1202 Views
Re: That's just it: Egwene is not only wrong, she's narratively wrong. - 20/12/2010 04:39:57 PM 1314 Views
Wish I'd read this sooner, 'cos I agree on several points. - 29/12/2010 03:38:59 AM 1244 Views
Re: Wish I'd read this sooner, 'cos I agree on several points. - 29/12/2010 07:32:49 AM 1210 Views
It seems an odd oversight, yes; I can't even recall her being Delved when the truth was revealed. - 29/12/2010 12:40:00 PM 1241 Views
Ensure this value has at most 100 characters (it has 101). - 29/12/2010 03:00:22 PM 2954 Views
Ah, good point; Rand might have to do the job himself. - 29/12/2010 06:43:44 PM 1201 Views
More likely to be Flinn. - 29/12/2010 08:18:19 PM 1228 Views
Maybe, once he knows the signs and techniques. - 30/12/2010 03:10:27 PM 1225 Views
Not sure if Rand had seized the source yet - he wouldn't have wanted to do it in front of Ramshalan - 30/12/2010 03:15:43 PM 1161 Views
Good point, too. - 30/12/2010 03:17:06 PM 1155 Views
He was holding the gateway open. *NM* - 30/12/2010 04:27:25 PM 599 Views
Thanks, had forgotten that. - 31/12/2010 04:43:25 AM 1147 Views

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