Egwene's Style, where did it come from and how does it reflect on her? - Edit 2
Before modification by newyorkersedai at 27/12/2010 04:18:47 AM
Many folks take issues with Egwene's attitude. At times, it seems a little unkind and harsh - she's young and grew up in a place with minimal education, after all - but the occasional hostility towards her is a bit justifiable.
All this makes me think that maybe we could look back at some critical relationships and moments in her life to see how she got this way... Let's start, and feel free to chime in.
Bran - the man is a smart and capable leader to his village. He combines straight-talk with a bit of diplomacy. He leads his village, but comes to conflict and compromise with the Wisdom and the Women's Circle.
It's unclear, however, how much Bran's style informs Egwene's style - in part because she might be drawn to taking lessons from the women in EF, and in part because Egwene was under Nynaeve's tutelage. Egwene was training to be the next Wisdom, after all, not the next Mayor.
Nynaeve - in EF, she was good at her job, even though she carried out with minimal politeness or kindness. For Nyn, her youth (and attitude problems) made being taken seriously and being obeyed far more important than being likable.
Nynaeve's style is to threaten and insult; when Nyn sees people not complying with her wishes, she reacts aggressively and with hostility. Looking back at Nyn's behavior in Baerlon, she puts as much pressure on them as she possibly can. Nynaeve's response to inter-personal adversity, then, is the nuclear option; getting her way is all that matters, and it takes a lot to make her see that "her way" might not be the right way at all. Nyn's style is almost definitely the biggest influence on EotW-era Egwene's attitude.
Moiraine - When Egwene meets Moiraine in EF, she might have met the first woman she would aspire to be like. Moiraine is intelligent, and tough but capable of being kind, generous, and likable. Moiraine takes responsibility for her actions, yet is utterly focused on her tasks. She also sets a high store on being obeyed, although she usually displays patience with people who question her.
Moiraine's style is a bit of a grab-bag, at times, perhaps because of the wide variety of situations she found herself in: our favorite AS loses her temper, displays both patience and impatience, often displays more compassion than Nynaeve, and yet can act so coldly that it's astonishing. There's more to say, but what's important in this is that Moiraine was the person that Eggy learned from as she started to really "come of age" and grow up.
As such, she probably had a massive influence on Eggy's behavior through part of EotW, and for many books after.
Siuan (part I) - the initial round of meetings between Eggy and Siuan might have really set the stage for Egwene's later beliefs about leadership. Siuan is every bit as goal-oriented as Moiraine, but her position requires both more and less from her. As the very top of the WT, Siuan needs to project control, stability, and unflappable wisdom; there's very little time for being liked or showing patience.
For Siuan, her style often has her dropping a hammer on anyone involved in any kind of "mistake" - when the Wonder Girls return from a kidnapping, they are punished unfairly. They are criticized for obeying orders that they had no right to disobey (leaving the Tower with Liandrin). Although Siuan isn't cruel, she must maintain order - so she explains to the Wonder Girls that (a) their punishment is necessary, if unjustified, and (b) Siuan needs to use them, and will do so because they can do what she needs.
Siuan thus presented both an example of how people at the top behave, as well as really presenting an "ends justifying the means" approach. As dangerous and ill-conceived as her plan was - making 3-4 girls hunt vastly more experienced and socially-powerful AS - it was done out of necessity, and it worked.
WO/Aviendha - Most of the time, Eggy was only conscious of learning one thing from the Aiel - dreamwalking. The fact that Al'Vere had already been through WT training gave her preparation for the raw obedience and teaching method the WO use.
The WO style, however, must be like being around Siuan all the time. They all tend to act like the weight of the world rests on their authority, their visible strength, and being obeyed. The WO might be even worse, because the Amyrlin might've commanded obedience, but the WO generally demand that their students accept the teachers' point of view.
Siuan (part 2) - This is where Egwene most obviously learned her current leadership style. Not only were "new Siuan's" lessons designed to making Eggy a capable Amyrlin, they were geared toward giving her the instincts and far-reaching mindset to make her self-sufficient.
This is where al 'Vere would've learned how to navigate the many groups and demands and obstructions that would face her. Egwene seemed to look on Siuan like a friend - even if a slightly distant friend (like an approachable dad or mom); she was thankful for the lessons and the constant support.
And then, of course, Egwene actually came into power. The real power of the whole WT. How can one characterize her early beginnings as leader of one of the most powerful groups on earth? For my part, I still haven't bought ToM, so I can't guess about what I've read.
Still, the ToM comments that I've skimmed, and the sections in TGS after Eggy is raised… They make it seem like Egwene has adopted the style of the WO and Siuan part 1, and grafted their examples onto the knowledge she gained under Siuan part 2.
To some extent, with the fate of the world in the balance, her behavior doesn't guarantee that she's just a lousy person. Yet the choice to take those styles - the degree to which she's chastised others while giving herself a free pass - I think it lends validity to anyone who says "Egwene sucks. At least a little."
If anyone has more to add to this little list of Eggy's influences, I'd be happy for it. I doubt that I covered everything, and I may be looking at all of this wrongly.
All this makes me think that maybe we could look back at some critical relationships and moments in her life to see how she got this way... Let's start, and feel free to chime in.
Bran - the man is a smart and capable leader to his village. He combines straight-talk with a bit of diplomacy. He leads his village, but comes to conflict and compromise with the Wisdom and the Women's Circle.
It's unclear, however, how much Bran's style informs Egwene's style - in part because she might be drawn to taking lessons from the women in EF, and in part because Egwene was under Nynaeve's tutelage. Egwene was training to be the next Wisdom, after all, not the next Mayor.
Nynaeve - in EF, she was good at her job, even though she carried out with minimal politeness or kindness. For Nyn, her youth (and attitude problems) made being taken seriously and being obeyed far more important than being likable.
Nynaeve's style is to threaten and insult; when Nyn sees people not complying with her wishes, she reacts aggressively and with hostility. Looking back at Nyn's behavior in Baerlon, she puts as much pressure on them as she possibly can. Nynaeve's response to inter-personal adversity, then, is the nuclear option; getting her way is all that matters, and it takes a lot to make her see that "her way" might not be the right way at all. Nyn's style is almost definitely the biggest influence on EotW-era Egwene's attitude.
Moiraine - When Egwene meets Moiraine in EF, she might have met the first woman she would aspire to be like. Moiraine is intelligent, and tough but capable of being kind, generous, and likable. Moiraine takes responsibility for her actions, yet is utterly focused on her tasks. She also sets a high store on being obeyed, although she usually displays patience with people who question her.
Moiraine's style is a bit of a grab-bag, at times, perhaps because of the wide variety of situations she found herself in: our favorite AS loses her temper, displays both patience and impatience, often displays more compassion than Nynaeve, and yet can act so coldly that it's astonishing. There's more to say, but what's important in this is that Moiraine was the person that Eggy learned from as she started to really "come of age" and grow up.
As such, she probably had a massive influence on Eggy's behavior through part of EotW, and for many books after.
Siuan (part I) - the initial round of meetings between Eggy and Siuan might have really set the stage for Egwene's later beliefs about leadership. Siuan is every bit as goal-oriented as Moiraine, but her position requires both more and less from her. As the very top of the WT, Siuan needs to project control, stability, and unflappable wisdom; there's very little time for being liked or showing patience.
For Siuan, her style often has her dropping a hammer on anyone involved in any kind of "mistake" - when the Wonder Girls return from a kidnapping, they are punished unfairly. They are criticized for obeying orders that they had no right to disobey (leaving the Tower with Liandrin). Although Siuan isn't cruel, she must maintain order - so she explains to the Wonder Girls that (a) their punishment is necessary, if unjustified, and (b) Siuan needs to use them, and will do so because they can do what she needs.
Siuan thus presented both an example of how people at the top behave, as well as really presenting an "ends justifying the means" approach. As dangerous and ill-conceived as her plan was - making 3-4 girls hunt vastly more experienced and socially-powerful AS - it was done out of necessity, and it worked.
WO/Aviendha - Most of the time, Eggy was only conscious of learning one thing from the Aiel - dreamwalking. The fact that Al'Vere had already been through WT training gave her preparation for the raw obedience and teaching method the WO use.
The WO style, however, must be like being around Siuan all the time. They all tend to act like the weight of the world rests on their authority, their visible strength, and being obeyed. The WO might be even worse, because the Amyrlin might've commanded obedience, but the WO generally demand that their students accept the teachers' point of view.
Siuan (part 2) - This is where Egwene most obviously learned her current leadership style. Not only were "new Siuan's" lessons designed to making Eggy a capable Amyrlin, they were geared toward giving her the instincts and far-reaching mindset to make her self-sufficient.
This is where al 'Vere would've learned how to navigate the many groups and demands and obstructions that would face her. Egwene seemed to look on Siuan like a friend - even if a slightly distant friend (like an approachable dad or mom); she was thankful for the lessons and the constant support.
And then, of course, Egwene actually came into power. The real power of the whole WT. How can one characterize her early beginnings as leader of one of the most powerful groups on earth? For my part, I still haven't bought ToM, so I can't guess about what I've read.
Still, the ToM comments that I've skimmed, and the sections in TGS after Eggy is raised… They make it seem like Egwene has adopted the style of the WO and Siuan part 1, and grafted their examples onto the knowledge she gained under Siuan part 2.
To some extent, with the fate of the world in the balance, her behavior doesn't guarantee that she's just a lousy person. Yet the choice to take those styles - the degree to which she's chastised others while giving herself a free pass - I think it lends validity to anyone who says "Egwene sucks. At least a little."
If anyone has more to add to this little list of Eggy's influences, I'd be happy for it. I doubt that I covered everything, and I may be looking at all of this wrongly.