Re: But you are just undervaluing Egwene's struggles in comparison to the other characters.
Lord Haart Send a noteboard - 22/12/2010 05:28:01 PM
The a'dam is the closest thing to being mindtrapped or Compelled, so I consider that quite significant and not something to be dismissed so easily, especially since she was so young and quite undeveloped as a character when she went through that.
It just seems to me that Egwene went through bad and traumatic events and didn't really get anything worthwhile in exchange. Compared to Rand, Mat and Perrin, it doesn't look like she got a reward for all of her struggles or at least IMHO becoming the leader of the AS seems more like a punishment than a prize.
It just seems to me that Egwene went through bad and traumatic events and didn't really get anything worthwhile in exchange. Compared to Rand, Mat and Perrin, it doesn't look like she got a reward for all of her struggles or at least IMHO becoming the leader of the AS seems more like a punishment than a prize.
Given how she thinks of it, I disagree. She holds her current position to be the most important in the world.
For all the issues that Rand, Mat and Perrin went through, they got to experience other moments where they really felt that they achieved a victory, which makes their sacrifices worthwhile in the end.
So did Egwene. She did well with the Wise Ones, she went straight from Accepted to Amyrlin and actually kept the position. Going from a tavern maid to becoming the most powerful woman in the world (after Tuon imo) is a pretty big reward, given that she expressedly WANTS the power.
To be blunt, Nynaeve has had a lot of moments where she shined, but she never really went through any struggles, indignities or moments where she was completely under someone elses' power so in many ways, she is more of a Mary Sue than Egwene is.
I'd agree that Nynaeve's biggest enemy is herself, but she got over that. I'd say that her early encounters with Moghedien fit the "completely under someone else's power" bill pretty well. She also acts for other people, and understands other people. Her relationship with Rand is one of the most meaningful of the series.
Every time Egwene's had a moment in the spotlight, it always turns out to be connected to someone else. Though she Shielded the Black Ajah Sister, it was Mat that had to release her and the others from the Stone. Though she defeated Mesaana, it had more to do with the Dreamspike Perrin brought to Tar Valon that trapped the Forsaken in T'A'R and then Gawyns' protection of her against the bloodknives. When she defeated the Seanchan, she ended up being rescued after she collapsed by Gawyn, Siuan and Gareth.
Those of us that don't like Egwene don't give other characters points for things like winning battles. They get points for selflessness and empathy. Like when Rand tells Nynaeve "thank you for caring, when I cannot". Egwene did well to take control of the tower, but in some ways it seemed overly contrived, and she also hasn't done as much with it as we'd like. Why isn't she preparing for TG more strenuously? It's a perfect rallying point. What are the battle ajah doing? Why hasn't she sent a delegation to Rand, as she so thoroughly thought through in TGS?
For me, it seems that the issue many fans have with Egwenes' character arc is that RJ intends for her to be considered a hero alongside Rand, Mat, Nynaeve and Perrin but she is never really given any moment to shine like they do. And then when she is given a moment that could be considered a victory, fans want to minimize it and tear her down for it.
This is partly true, because we had huge expectations about AS being powerful and wise, but they turned out to be largely weak. So Egwene controlling them seems strange. She has no inherent title like Rand does, nor did she come to rule with Perrin's honesty or Mat's battle brilliance. She fits the role of Amyrlin well imo, and she is no less capable of wielding power than most other characters. Her weakness is her inability to put greater concerns ahead of her personal concerns for the tower and the AS.
It's sad how much ire she provokes in fans because I really don't think she's gotten a chance to do anything that earned it.
It's more the missed opportunities for me. Why not bring Siuan closer? Why not actually publicly recognize Nynaeve's achievements? Why not actually try to speak to Rand as a person? Compare Egwene's treatment of Rand to Elayne's treatment of Mat and Perrin.
IMO, I wouldn't be surprised if Halima (aka Arangar) actually placed some small but strategic amounts of compulsion in Egwene's mind. Some of her behaviors seems decidedly odd, and not very different to Dark Rand's. Almost like she was affected by the Taint.
Egwene, a poor leader?
16/12/2010 05:59:15 PM
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Egwene isn't supposed to be a leader. She's a dictator and a politician.
16/12/2010 08:21:13 PM
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Re: Egwene, a poor leader?
16/12/2010 10:53:20 PM
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If the Shadow had removed Elaida so Egwene was Amyrlin whilst Rand was still Dark ...
16/12/2010 11:56:08 PM
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Same thing if Elaida was in charge when meeting w/ Dark Rand. *NM*
17/12/2010 02:10:20 AM
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Except Rand wouldn't go to the WT with Elaida in charge, without having to fight
17/12/2010 02:50:18 AM
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Re: Egwene, a poor leader?
17/12/2010 03:07:40 AM
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Exactly how loyal do you think Nynaeve and Elayne are?
17/12/2010 04:52:34 AM
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Re: Exactly how loyal do you think Nynaeve and Elayne are?
17/12/2010 05:44:30 AM
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Re: Egwene, a poor leader?
17/12/2010 02:30:48 PM
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Re: Egwene, a poor leader?
17/12/2010 08:25:39 PM
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Re: Egwene, a poor leader?
18/12/2010 05:06:21 AM
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Re: Egwene, a poor leader?
19/12/2010 08:41:31 PM
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Torturing Nynaeve for exclusively her own political ends. *NM*
20/12/2010 12:14:55 AM
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Re: Torturing Nynaeve for exclusively her own political ends.
20/12/2010 01:24:12 AM
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And the most painful torments were caused by Egwene
20/12/2010 09:31:44 AM
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Re: Egwene, a poor leader?
20/12/2010 12:57:42 AM
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She has the same power base as any Amyrlin - the Aes Sedai, the artisans, Guards & citizens of TV
17/12/2010 05:51:20 PM
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Ta'veren vs. Mary Sue
17/12/2010 07:33:28 PM
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I see them as being the same thing.
17/12/2010 08:11:30 PM
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I don't think the case can be made for Rand having it easy
17/12/2010 11:04:58 PM
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I would say that in the grand scheme of things, Rand's had good to balance out the bad.
20/12/2010 06:27:35 PM
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Funniest statement I've ever seen on here.
18/12/2010 05:22:28 AM
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But you are just undervaluing Egwene's struggles in comparison to the other characters.
20/12/2010 06:17:17 PM
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Re: But you are just undervaluing Egwene's struggles in comparison to the other characters.
22/12/2010 05:28:01 PM
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Yes, but for completely different reasons...
18/12/2010 12:35:23 AM
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You think Egwene has more power than Tuon?
18/12/2010 12:27:01 PM
- 828 Views
Definitely...
18/12/2010 03:24:12 PM
- 865 Views
I think comparing Egwene to McCain is asking for trouble on several fronts.
20/12/2010 12:33:04 AM
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She has a pretty powerful weapon...
20/12/2010 02:41:32 AM
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RJ is more powerful.
20/12/2010 03:25:49 AM
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Re: She has a pretty powerful weapon...
20/12/2010 09:46:22 AM
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Re: She has a pretty powerful weapon...
20/12/2010 09:55:03 AM
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Re: She has a pretty powerful weapon...
20/12/2010 10:27:59 AM
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