Re: That's just it: Egwene is not only wrong, she's narratively wrong.
AshaShan Send a noteboard - 20/12/2010 04:39:57 PM
I used to think, as liltempest does, that Egwene would contine to behave like an entitled ass throughout the series and never be called to account for it. But the recent books have caused me to veer towards your way of thinkng.
I mean, RJ and I were obviously very different people with very different worldviews. His take on the battle of the sexes has always exasperated me, and the tragic death of the Amayar moved me not a bit.
That said, I also thought that Perrin throwing away his axe and killing people with a hammer was an empty gesture and wondered what the author was thinking with that scene. Turns out RJ was well aware of how futile a gesture it was and intended it more as a symbol of Perrin's continued indecisiveness. As Hopper described it, he was jumping back and forth over the same fence.
Cadsuane's relationship with Rand was another thing that made me doubt RJ and I would see eye to eye on much of anything. Her showing up to smack sense into Rand seemed very deus ex machina, and I felt that having some outside force solve all Rand's problems for him would devalue him as the protagonist. Turns out RJ was well aware of that too, and Rand would ultimately be forced to solve his own mental issues.
Stuff like that has given me renewed faith that Egwene's total lack of comeuppance was very deliberate on the author's part. After all, he was fully aware that the supergirls behaved shittily towards Mat way back in TDR, since he had Nynaeve and Elayne made to apologise for it. Egwene's omission from that scene wasn't an accident IMO.
That she has always gotten her way, that no-one has really criticised her for her moral and tactical shortcomings, these things were intended to be combined with her antagonistic relationship with Rand to inspire her to confront him at the Fields of Merrilor and try to assume command of the war effort from him. As she is "obliquely" aware she is doing. Any other Amyrlin would be wary of confronting the Dragon Reborn at this stage. They'd resort to subtle manipulation like that seen from the Tower and rebel embassies in LOC, all vague promises and vaguer threats. And thats a conflict that they might even win, since such games are very much not Rand's style. But to stage her coup directly and openly like this? That plays to Rand's strengths, and only Egwene would be self-absorbed enough and have enough disdain for Rand to do that.
Its going to backfire on her. Her dream of the pretty and cracked sphere shattering is about the White Tower, not the Seals. By Merrilor's end I suspect the Amyrlin will have been forced to bow to the Dragon's authority. Recent developements in the series have renewed my faith in that. RJ knew what he was doing, with Perrin and Cadsuade, and yes, with Egwene too.
I mean, RJ and I were obviously very different people with very different worldviews. His take on the battle of the sexes has always exasperated me, and the tragic death of the Amayar moved me not a bit.
That said, I also thought that Perrin throwing away his axe and killing people with a hammer was an empty gesture and wondered what the author was thinking with that scene. Turns out RJ was well aware of how futile a gesture it was and intended it more as a symbol of Perrin's continued indecisiveness. As Hopper described it, he was jumping back and forth over the same fence.
Cadsuane's relationship with Rand was another thing that made me doubt RJ and I would see eye to eye on much of anything. Her showing up to smack sense into Rand seemed very deus ex machina, and I felt that having some outside force solve all Rand's problems for him would devalue him as the protagonist. Turns out RJ was well aware of that too, and Rand would ultimately be forced to solve his own mental issues.
Stuff like that has given me renewed faith that Egwene's total lack of comeuppance was very deliberate on the author's part. After all, he was fully aware that the supergirls behaved shittily towards Mat way back in TDR, since he had Nynaeve and Elayne made to apologise for it. Egwene's omission from that scene wasn't an accident IMO.
That she has always gotten her way, that no-one has really criticised her for her moral and tactical shortcomings, these things were intended to be combined with her antagonistic relationship with Rand to inspire her to confront him at the Fields of Merrilor and try to assume command of the war effort from him. As she is "obliquely" aware she is doing. Any other Amyrlin would be wary of confronting the Dragon Reborn at this stage. They'd resort to subtle manipulation like that seen from the Tower and rebel embassies in LOC, all vague promises and vaguer threats. And thats a conflict that they might even win, since such games are very much not Rand's style. But to stage her coup directly and openly like this? That plays to Rand's strengths, and only Egwene would be self-absorbed enough and have enough disdain for Rand to do that.
Its going to backfire on her. Her dream of the pretty and cracked sphere shattering is about the White Tower, not the Seals. By Merrilor's end I suspect the Amyrlin will have been forced to bow to the Dragon's authority. Recent developements in the series have renewed my faith in that. RJ knew what he was doing, with Perrin and Cadsuade, and yes, with Egwene too.
The significance of 23 stars (TOM Spoilers)
14/12/2010 11:48:55 PM
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It would be a first...
15/12/2010 02:46:33 AM
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Re: It would be a first...
15/12/2010 04:39:17 AM
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I think people aren't giving Egwene enough credit.
15/12/2010 04:59:09 AM
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She's not bringing everyone for a discussion, but for leverage to force him to change his mind.
19/12/2010 09:54:49 PM
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20/12/2010 01:50:39 AM
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Re:
20/12/2010 04:37:24 AM
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Sadly, the thing you reference four times isn't actually anywhere in the book.
29/12/2010 03:17:15 AM
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+1
29/12/2010 07:10:41 AM
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I think the Tower needs a singular leader, though you may be right.
29/12/2010 12:51:19 PM
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Re: It would be a first...
15/12/2010 12:43:49 PM
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Dear lord, you wrote the Egwene haters' ultimate fantasy right there
19/12/2010 01:41:55 AM
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One problematic issue...This assumes the Dark One cannot hold himself back once the Seals are broken
15/12/2010 07:57:53 AM
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Err, it's the other way around
15/12/2010 09:00:38 AM
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I see. It's the same thing, really, just looking at it from the opposite perspective...
15/12/2010 09:14:22 AM
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Don't you know it's all about the posturing
15/12/2010 09:40:15 AM
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agreed, it'd also be a terribly boring book to read if the DO was defensive
15/12/2010 09:56:37 AM
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It's more that you take it out of context
15/12/2010 11:32:36 AM
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The DO will be forced to act because breaking the seals is inherently an attempt to seal the bore...
15/12/2010 08:51:38 PM
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While I agree overall, I think this is a case where Rand/TDR mistakes his role
15/12/2010 05:37:25 PM
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I think Egwene is successful and Rand has to go to the Seanchan for female channeler assistance
18/12/2010 12:47:54 AM
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Egwene's dream seems a little more personal than that
18/12/2010 04:55:37 AM
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Yes
18/12/2010 07:57:35 AM
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Actually, I think Tuon will capture her, and then release her. *NM*
18/12/2010 02:47:42 PM
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Re: It would be a first...
18/12/2010 02:48:40 PM
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wow. I'm not an egwene hater but I will if the freaking idiot sitters & she are the stars
15/12/2010 12:02:12 PM
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I wish
16/12/2010 08:29:23 PM
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That's just it: Egwene is not only wrong, she's narratively wrong.
19/12/2010 11:30:35 PM
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Man, that's the best take on Egwene I have ever read.
20/12/2010 12:38:07 AM
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Re: That's just it: Egwene is not only wrong, she's narratively wrong.
20/12/2010 04:39:57 PM
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Wish I'd read this sooner, 'cos I agree on several points.
29/12/2010 03:38:59 AM
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Re: Wish I'd read this sooner, 'cos I agree on several points.
29/12/2010 07:32:49 AM
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It seems an odd oversight, yes; I can't even recall her being Delved when the truth was revealed.
29/12/2010 12:40:00 PM
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Ensure this value has at most 100 characters (it has 101).
29/12/2010 03:00:22 PM
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Ah, good point; Rand might have to do the job himself.
29/12/2010 06:43:44 PM
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More likely to be Flinn.
29/12/2010 08:18:19 PM
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Maybe, once he knows the signs and techniques.
30/12/2010 03:10:27 PM
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Not sure if Rand had seized the source yet - he wouldn't have wanted to do it in front of Ramshalan
30/12/2010 03:15:43 PM
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Not only must I agree with you, but I think you've divined Egwenes ultimate destiny.
29/12/2010 03:41:59 AM
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