Wheel of Time Messageboard: 8} by fionwe1987

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fionwe1987 Send a noteboard - 20/12/2010 01:50:39 AM

She's the Decider; the Dragon will face the Amyrlin and know her wrath.

And she said this? Since a previous chapter has already been titled the Amyrlin's Anger, what makes you think there's going to be wrath on either side at Merrilor?

After all, she's defeated ONE WHOLE FORSAKEN with only minimal aid from the rest of the Tower and Wise Ones; what could Lews Therin Telamon Reborn POSSIBLY tell her about the DO, the Seals or battling the Shadow?

A ton. Which is why she asked him to discuss things with her. Its hardly her fault that he refused and just walked away, is it?

Fel figured it out long before Rand, and Min knew before him, too, so it's not some super secret genius insight.

Oh... three people figured it out individually. It must be right! Incidentally, "ad" Lews Therin, in Rand's head, also asked Rand to break the Seals, shocking him to the core. When he spoke of this to Fel, Fel said he saw no reason for the Seals to be broken. Then, he died, and a note conveniently left for Rand asked him to "clear away the rubble". Rand and Min both get the idea for breaking the Seals from a note of doubtful provenance!

When Perrin has the temerity to suggest Rand just MIGHT know wtf he's doing without her guidance she practically goes into a sullen pout (now THAT'S mature leadership!)

Huh? When did Perrin and Egwene discuss this? Are you sure you didn't imagine this in your Rand fanboy rage against Egwene?

It's counter-intuitive and requires much thought but, once again, that's just one more argument that the Reborn man who CREATED the Seals knows more about them than the teenage Amyrlin.

A teenage Amyrlin who just happened to dream that Rand doing this will cause a disaster, just one hour before she heard of this plan from Rand...

I could see your point if Egwene had shown any indication she actually wants to discuss or negotiate anything with Rand instead of several times explicitly stating that she means to talk him out of it and is bringing the world leaders together toward that end (does that SOUND like someone reasonable, or someone who wants to hold him at the point of every lance on the planet until he sees what she considers reason?)

She makes it clear that she wants to discuss things with him, and if that fails, she wants to use the gathered leaders to dissuade him. That sounds like someone with a contingency plan. But you're right, she doesn't feel she can be convinced to the contrary. And she has good reason to feel secure in that. She got a Dream that warned her against this course of action. That's the Pattern itself telling her that Lews Therin is wrong...

Meh. I could even deal with her talking down to Mesaana like a vice principal paddling a naughty school girl, despite the fact it basically boiled down to her borrowing all the Towers gravitas to make up for the fact she's a half trained teenager facing a living legend.

But she openly states that that is exactly what she's doing. It isn't as if she believes she is personally a legend equal to Mesaana!

However and once again, LTT was going GRAY when he forged the Seals, despite never having held the Oath Rod and being the most powerful channeler who's ever been. He was the most accomplished channeler in the age of the most accomplished channelers, and the day he created the Seals he'd probably already lived twice as long as Egwene will have the day she dies, assuming her arrogance doesn't cause a premature death. She's not even 20 NOW, so a long way from even being that nearly his equal, but, on top of all that, he did, in fact, CREATE the Seals. The simple truth is he's literally forgotten more about the Seals than she'll ever know, but she still seems to think all her Tower training and huddling with old biddies, not to mention her leet Egweneness skillz make her more knowledgeable about the Seals, the Bore, the DO, Tarmon Gaidon and, well, everything, than LTT Reborn. Probably all those people who've been prophecying about his pivotal roles in the Last Battle for three millennium just got confused by his proximity to the REAL Chosen One.

Dude, did you or did you not read of her Dream? It is confusing that you completely ignore the only reason she is so strongly opposed to Rand's plan and come up with all sorts of insane reasons for why she's opposing him. If these were her reasons, would she have let him walk away from the Tower?

Rand is gonna steamroll over her at Mach 3 with Jordan driving while I laugh. My only regret is that I so staunchly defended her until this book.

Or, you know, Egwene will mention her Dream, Rand will talk of Fel's note, Egwene or someone else will get suspicious, and Rand's plan will come crashing down...

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The significance of 23 stars (TOM Spoilers) Iain83 - 14/12/2010 11:48:55 PM 3720 Views

It would be a first... DomA - 15/12/2010 02:46:33 AM 1575 Views

Re: It would be a first... Hot Pie - 15/12/2010 04:39:17 AM 1199 Views

I think people aren't giving Egwene enough credit. LadyLorraine - 15/12/2010 04:59:09 AM 1254 Views

She's not bringing everyone for a discussion, but for leverage to force him to change his mind. Joel - 19/12/2010 09:54:49 PM 1178 Views

fionwe1987 - 20/12/2010 01:50:39 AM 1174 Views

Re:

Lord Haart - 20/12/2010 04:37:24 AM 1018 Views

Huh? fionwe1987 - 20/12/2010 05:09:39 AM 1114 Views

I find the theory moratcorlm - 20/12/2010 09:18:34 AM 1016 Views

That's a new one to me guttering flame - 20/12/2010 09:45:09 AM 1109 Views

Your theory is very unlikely guttering flame - 20/12/2010 09:50:26 AM 1121 Views

If it was a plant, why would it be so oblique? Lord Haart - 29/12/2010 07:22:58 AM 974 Views

Re:

darius_sedai - 20/12/2010 08:09:53 PM 1204 Views

That's not true. Chas - 21/12/2010 02:22:50 AM 1255 Views

Sadly, the thing you reference four times isn't actually anywhere in the book. Joel - 29/12/2010 03:17:15 AM 1246 Views

+1 Lord Haart - 29/12/2010 07:10:41 AM 1135 Views

I think the Tower needs a singular leader, though you may be right. Joel - 29/12/2010 12:51:19 PM 1138 Views

Don't take this the wrong way, but I think I love you.

(edited) lilltempest - 29/12/2010 06:43:32 PM 1392 Views

Ah, if only I could sell the concept of sister-wives....

Joel - 29/12/2010 07:09:56 PM 1056 Views

Re: It would be a first... DomA - 15/12/2010 12:43:49 PM 1614 Views

Dear lord, you wrote the Egwene haters' ultimate fantasy right there newyorkersedai - 19/12/2010 01:41:55 AM 1124 Views

Don't think of use as Egwene haters... Lord Haart - 19/12/2010 04:32:11 AM 1077 Views

One problematic issue...This assumes the Dark One cannot hold himself back once the Seals are broken Shannow - 15/12/2010 07:57:53 AM 1258 Views

Err, it's the other way around guttering flame - 15/12/2010 09:00:38 AM 1186 Views

I see. It's the same thing, really, just looking at it from the opposite perspective... Shannow - 15/12/2010 09:14:22 AM 1263 Views

Don't you know it's all about the posturing guttering flame - 15/12/2010 09:40:15 AM 1227 Views

agreed, it'd also be a terribly boring book to read if the DO was defensive Iceman - 15/12/2010 09:56:37 AM 1233 Views

It's more that you take it out of context DomA - 15/12/2010 11:32:36 AM 1236 Views

So then... Shannow - 15/12/2010 06:35:02 PM 1212 Views

Re: So then... DomA - 16/12/2010 03:39:19 AM 1141 Views

Re: So then... Hot Pie - 16/12/2010 08:11:37 AM 1106 Views

Mierin guttering flame - 16/12/2010 08:13:55 AM 1319 Views

It would be a good strategy for a conventional war, but redhand - 16/12/2010 07:32:30 AM 1157 Views

The DO will be forced to act because breaking the seals is inherently an attempt to seal the bore... Onarishma - 15/12/2010 08:51:38 PM 1151 Views

Nature of the DO Kieran - 15/12/2010 10:38:24 PM 1045 Views

While I agree overall, I think this is a case where Rand/TDR mistakes his role RugbyPlayingAshaman - 15/12/2010 05:37:25 PM 1017 Views

I don't see why Egwene would oppose his plan guttering flame - 15/12/2010 06:17:47 PM 1039 Views

I don't think that's the issue. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 15/12/2010 07:31:03 PM 1102 Views

I think Egwene is successful and Rand has to go to the Seanchan for female channeler assistance Logain - 18/12/2010 12:47:54 AM 1160 Views

Egwene's dream seems a little more personal than that Lord Haart - 18/12/2010 04:55:37 AM 1002 Views

Yes moratcorlm - 18/12/2010 07:57:35 AM 1033 Views

Actually, I think Tuon will capture her, and then release her. *NM* Lord Haart - 18/12/2010 02:47:42 PM 557 Views

Re: It would be a first... lodlom - 18/12/2010 02:48:40 PM 1043 Views

Re: It would be a first... lodlom - 18/12/2010 03:28:57 PM 1032 Views

Those are vewings and prophesies... fionwe1987 - 18/12/2010 03:43:55 PM 928 Views

wow. I'm not an egwene hater but I will if the freaking idiot sitters & she are the stars newyorkersedai - 15/12/2010 12:02:12 PM 1126 Views

I wish lilltempest - 16/12/2010 08:29:23 PM 1082 Views

That's just it: Egwene is not only wrong, she's narratively wrong. Joel - 19/12/2010 11:30:35 PM 1479 Views

Man, that's the best take on Egwene I have ever read. Chas - 20/12/2010 12:38:07 AM 1070 Views

+1 Lord Haart - 20/12/2010 01:07:24 AM 1155 Views

You may be onto something there. Joel - 20/12/2010 01:35:46 AM 1093 Views

Thanks. Joel - 20/12/2010 01:24:42 AM 1053 Views

Re: That's just it: Egwene is not only wrong, she's narratively wrong. AshaShan - 20/12/2010 04:39:57 PM 1168 Views

Wish I'd read this sooner, 'cos I agree on several points. Joel - 29/12/2010 03:38:59 AM 1106 Views

Re: Wish I'd read this sooner, 'cos I agree on several points. Lord Haart - 29/12/2010 07:32:49 AM 1065 Views

It seems an odd oversight, yes; I can't even recall her being Delved when the truth was revealed. Joel - 29/12/2010 12:40:00 PM 1104 Views

Ensure this value has at most 100 characters (it has 101). Lord Haart - 29/12/2010 03:00:22 PM 2818 Views

Ah, good point; Rand might have to do the job himself. Joel - 29/12/2010 06:43:44 PM 1065 Views

More likely to be Flinn. Lohikaarme - 29/12/2010 08:18:19 PM 1087 Views

Maybe, once he knows the signs and techniques. Joel - 30/12/2010 03:10:27 PM 1083 Views

Not sure if Rand had seized the source yet - he wouldn't have wanted to do it in front of Ramshalan Lord Haart - 30/12/2010 03:15:43 PM 1037 Views

Good point, too. Joel - 30/12/2010 03:17:06 PM 1024 Views

He was holding the gateway open. *NM* moratcorlm - 30/12/2010 04:27:25 PM 533 Views

Thanks, had forgotten that. Joel - 31/12/2010 04:43:25 AM 1015 Views

Not only must I agree with you, but I think you've divined Egwenes ultimate destiny. Joel - 29/12/2010 03:41:59 AM 1116 Views

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<quote id="180496">
<quote id="180456">
She's the Decider; the Dragon will face the Amyrlin and know her wrath.</quote>
And she said this? Since a previous chapter has already been titled the Amyrlin's Anger, what makes you think there's going to be wrath on either side at Merrilor?

<quote>After all, she's defeated ONE WHOLE FORSAKEN with only minimal aid from the rest of the Tower and Wise Ones; what could Lews Therin Telamon Reborn POSSIBLY tell her about the DO, the Seals or battling the Shadow?</quote>
A ton. Which is why she asked him to discuss things with her. Its hardly her fault that he refused and just walked away, is it?

<quote>Fel figured it out long before Rand, and Min knew before him, too, so it's not some super secret genius insight.</quote>
Oh... three people figured it out individually. It must be right! Incidentally, "ad" Lews Therin, in Rand's head, also asked Rand to break the Seals, shocking him to the core. When he spoke of this to Fel, Fel said he saw no reason for the Seals to be broken. Then, he died, and a note conveniently left for Rand asked him to "clear away the rubble". Rand and Min both get the idea for breaking the Seals from a note of doubtful provenance!

<quote>When Perrin has the temerity to suggest Rand just MIGHT know wtf he's doing without her guidance she practically goes into a sullen pout (now THAT'S mature leadership!)</quote> 
Huh? When did Perrin and Egwene discuss this? Are you sure you didn't imagine this in your Rand fanboy rage against Egwene?

<quote>It's counter-intuitive and requires much thought but, once again, that's just one more argument that the Reborn man who CREATED the Seals knows more about them than the teenage Amyrlin.</quote> 
A teenage Amyrlin who just happened to dream that Rand doing this will cause a disaster, just one hour before she heard of this plan from Rand...

<quote>I could see your point if Egwene had shown any indication she actually wants to discuss or negotiate anything with Rand instead of several times explicitly stating that she means to talk him out of it and is bringing the world leaders together toward that end (does that SOUND like someone reasonable, or someone who wants to hold him at the point of every lance on the planet until he sees what she considers reason?)</quote>
She makes it clear that she wants to discuss things with him, and if that fails, she wants to use the gathered leaders to dissuade him. That sounds like someone with a contingency plan. But you're right, she doesn't feel she can be convinced to the contrary. And she has good reason to feel secure in that. She got a Dream that warned her against this course of action. That's the Pattern itself telling her that Lews Therin is wrong...

<quote>Meh. I could even deal with her talking down to Mesaana like a vice principal paddling a naughty school girl, despite the fact it basically boiled down to her borrowing all the Towers gravitas to make up for the fact she's a half trained teenager facing a living legend.</quote> 
But she openly states that that is exactly what she's doing. It isn't as if she believes she is personally a legend equal to Mesaana!

<quote>However and once again, LTT was going GRAY when he forged the Seals, despite never having held the Oath Rod and being the most powerful channeler who's ever been. He was the most accomplished channeler in the age of the most accomplished channelers, and the day he created the Seals he'd probably already lived twice as long as Egwene will have the day she dies, assuming her arrogance doesn't cause a premature death. She's not even 20 NOW, so a long way from even being that nearly his equal, but, on top of all that, he did, in fact, CREATE the Seals. The simple truth is he's literally forgotten more about the Seals than she'll ever know, but she still seems to think all her Tower training and huddling with old biddies, not to mention her leet Egweneness skillz make her more knowledgeable about the Seals, the Bore, the DO, Tarmon Gaidon and, well, everything, than LTT Reborn. Probably all those people who've been prophecying about his pivotal roles in the Last Battle for three millennium just got confused by his proximity to the REAL Chosen One. :rolleyes:</quote>
Dude, did you or did you not read of her Dream? It is confusing that you completely ignore the only reason she is so strongly opposed to Rand's plan and come up with all sorts of insane reasons for why she's opposing him. If these were her reasons, would she have let him walk away from the Tower?

<quote>Rand is gonna steamroll over her at Mach 3 with Jordan driving while I laugh. My only regret is that I so staunchly defended her until this book.</quote>
8} Or, you know, Egwene will mention her Dream, Rand will talk of Fel's note, Egwene or someone else will get suspicious, and Rand's plan will come crashing down...
</quote>

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