I think we largely agree, but it is really nice to be able to discuss the series with someone that isn't either a 'x is the most awful person in the world' or 'y is the bomb'.
She didn't spell it out, but it's obvious... her next thought was wondering if she should not make a similar move to gain the allegiance of the BT to Andor, and if she dares to wait and risk the alliance of Rand's lands to move first.
What she thinks isn't as important as what she does here. I think she is smart enough to know that asking for an exclusive relation would be too provoking. Her thoughts make it clear that she is well aware that just this agreement will be tough enough. Elayne is walking a tightrope, but this may be the difference between our views, I think that it is necessary.
I agree strongly with you, and I don't know why everyone isn't talking about this, that this IS a game changer and it dangerous.
I don't think that Elayne envisions Andor-Cairhien as a center of an alliance; rather she is trying desperately to survive. (And I might add she is just as focused on winning TG for everyone.)
I think she sees it as both. Right now, she is first and foremost a Queen. As Queen, she needs to take advantage of any alliances she can make. It isn't her duty to make certain that the tower remains neutral. It is Egwene's and the Hall's.
Not really, it's far less clear than this...
You make some very good points here. I can also think of a few other times that Elayne has used her position as AS in ways that she probably shouldn't have.
This is a pessimistic, although possible, outcome. Further, I think it has too much of the viewpoint of the tower. In another time, another ruler doing this would most certainly cause the troubles you are concerned with. BUT, TG is here and the Seanchen are knocking on the door. Sometimes you have no choice but to roll the dice and hope.
Possibly, I like Nynaeve, but I think you are giving her too much credit.
As far as how the nations might respond, I give you a lot of credit for your analysis. Lots of nations are going to want access to chanellers now. Egwene will most likely have to very strongly assert the tower's privileges. Elayne is jumping in front of the bus and Egwene may have to run her over. But, do you really think that if Elayne didn't do this that some other leader wouldn't try to access the Black Tower or some other source like WO or Seanchen?
I don't see why it couldn't be set-up to happen outside of the series. RJ has stated that he didn't want to wrap everything up. This would be one very cool thread to leave hanging in my opinion.
Now that is an interesting idea. Nobody rules for very long in this future. I don't know what to make of it. If I read it right, though. Cairhien and Andor are separate again. Further the main problem doesn't appear to be the big opposed alliances but how the Aiel deliberately destroy the peace of the dragon. Also most of the credit for the big alliance in the mind of the people involved goes to the dragon and his descendants. Nobody cares about Elayne's contribution.
Absolutely. I'm actually pretty convinced the situation Elayne is setting up will be diffused. She might be the next Age's Hawkwing, Mabriam en Sheered, Heir of the Dragon rolled into one, butt I really doubt Jordan intended to leave his world on the eve of another Hundred Years War, which is the future Aviendha foresees, and Elayne and Tuon are both setting up.
Everything will change when the pieces of the puzzle start falling into place (starting with the Egwene-Seanchan woman dream where they must help each other finally happening).
Everything I have predicted about the series has been wrong, while more than one loony theory has turned out to be true at least in part. You almost have to be a loon to be able to guess what is going to happen, even when what does happen makes perfect sense in hindsight.
I will have to read it again, but I don't remember that Elayne asked that the kin's deal be exclusive. I do agree that she is treading on dangerous water. I am certain that Elayne agrees as well. This reminds me a little bit about Perrin and his 'rebellion' with Elayne.
She didn't spell it out, but it's obvious... her next thought was wondering if she should not make a similar move to gain the allegiance of the BT to Andor, and if she dares to wait and risk the alliance of Rand's lands to move first.
What she thinks isn't as important as what she does here. I think she is smart enough to know that asking for an exclusive relation would be too provoking. Her thoughts make it clear that she is well aware that just this agreement will be tough enough. Elayne is walking a tightrope, but this may be the difference between our views, I think that it is necessary.
I agree strongly with you, and I don't know why everyone isn't talking about this, that this IS a game changer and it dangerous.
Elayne has her own ideas and notions about the post-TG world and how the channellers will fit into it. Egwene envisions all the (for the present, female) channellers tied to the WT in a collaborative alliance. Egwene is among other things striving to create a framework that will smooth out any conflict between the groups of channellers. She envisions the WT regaining its influence over the nations, and through the WO and Windfinders, extending it even more. Elayne rather envisions Andor-Cairhien as the center of an alliance of nations and groups of channellers, allied to the WT through her. She intends this "greater Andor" to stand as the greatest political, economical and military power, to keep in check an alliance of Illian-Tear, and the Seanchan.
I don't think that Elayne envisions Andor-Cairhien as a center of an alliance; rather she is trying desperately to survive. (And I might add she is just as focused on winning TG for everyone.)
Elayne sees the Tower not anymore as above all the nations and neutral, but as a partner and open ally of her fledging Covenant/Empire/High Kingdom.
I think she sees it as both. Right now, she is first and foremost a Queen. As Queen, she needs to take advantage of any alliances she can make. It isn't her duty to make certain that the tower remains neutral. It is Egwene's and the Hall's.
Further, I don't think Elayne is acting in her role as AS here, but as a ruler who took in the kin.
Not really, it's far less clear than this...
You make some very good points here. I can also think of a few other times that Elayne has used her position as AS in ways that she probably shouldn't have.
Anyway... I think Elayne and Nynaeve are the set up to the final resolution. Elayne is the one going too far. What she doesn't realize is that she might provoke the conflict she seeks to avoid the way she's handling things. She's setting Andor to become a counterweight to the Seanchan, but is moving so powerfully and so fast she risks painting herself as a threat that must be stopped, before the Andoran Queen herself ends up ruling an Empire over the Westlands.. and worse, since she's Aes Sedai, the rulers prejudiced against the Tower might see her as the tool of the WT to establish its dominion over the Westlands, turning the nations into provinces... Elayne's plans would see two "super powers" at war, with the smaller fish forced to choose a side. She is also risking a Bonwhin/Hawkwing type of conflict with the Tower, and could even cause Egwene's downfall if she gets blamed by the Hall for mishandling Elayne and failing to get her back in line.
This is a pessimistic, although possible, outcome. Further, I think it has too much of the viewpoint of the tower. In another time, another ruler doing this would most certainly cause the troubles you are concerned with. BUT, TG is here and the Seanchen are knocking on the door. Sometimes you have no choice but to roll the dice and hope.
Nynaeve seems positioned to be able to step in when the first sparks of an Elayne vs. the Hall-Egwene conflict appear, and to make it peter out. It's Nynaeve who has the vision AS are meant to serve, and return to the nations. She has the influence to step in and make the point what Elayne wants of the Kin she should get from the whole Tower, not only her but all the nations who support the Tower (the future "greater Tower" at this point, ie: including the groups allied to it like WO and Windfinders) should be offered the same services by the Aes Sedai, and then Egwene's plans become vital, and must be extended to include the male channellers (otherwise some of the nations that don't currently trust the Tower will be tempted to secure an alliance with the Ash'aman to get the same services minus the political pressure, or try to convince the Seafolk to offer services for a price and so on. Before long, the groups of channellers would be rivals, and siding with nations... the possibilities of conflicts would be massive)
Possibly, I like Nynaeve, but I think you are giving her too much credit.
As far as how the nations might respond, I give you a lot of credit for your analysis. Lots of nations are going to want access to chanellers now. Egwene will most likely have to very strongly assert the tower's privileges. Elayne is jumping in front of the bus and Egwene may have to run her over. But, do you really think that if Elayne didn't do this that some other leader wouldn't try to access the Black Tower or some other source like WO or Seanchen?
I don't think this will come to trial or anything of the kind. It's too late in the series.
I don't see why it couldn't be set-up to happen outside of the series. RJ has stated that he didn't want to wrap everything up. This would be one very cool thread to leave hanging in my opinion.
I think Elayne's solutions are preparing the future foreseen by Aviendha, however: big opposed alliances, Egwene's plans not working and the Tower doomed, and the Seanchan eliminating them one by one. And obviously in this future Elayne doesn't rule very long (and thus, she probably gets assassinated).
Now that is an interesting idea. Nobody rules for very long in this future. I don't know what to make of it. If I read it right, though. Cairhien and Andor are separate again. Further the main problem doesn't appear to be the big opposed alliances but how the Aiel deliberately destroy the peace of the dragon. Also most of the credit for the big alliance in the mind of the people involved goes to the dragon and his descendants. Nobody cares about Elayne's contribution.
The tension between Elayne and the WT may yet fizzle, though. Many things can happen. Elayne's role in the last battle and against the Seanchen could change things dramatically. Plus, there is the fact that the tower has other concerns as well. Or, Elayne could die after giving birth. Or circumstances could allow Elayne somehow to slip through. (If anyone could she could.)
Absolutely. I'm actually pretty convinced the situation Elayne is setting up will be diffused. She might be the next Age's Hawkwing, Mabriam en Sheered, Heir of the Dragon rolled into one, butt I really doubt Jordan intended to leave his world on the eve of another Hundred Years War, which is the future Aviendha foresees, and Elayne and Tuon are both setting up.
Everything will change when the pieces of the puzzle start falling into place (starting with the Egwene-Seanchan woman dream where they must help each other finally happening).
Everything I have predicted about the series has been wrong, while more than one loony theory has turned out to be true at least in part. You almost have to be a loon to be able to guess what is going to happen, even when what does happen makes perfect sense in hindsight.
Elayne kissing Egwene's ring?
15/12/2010 09:11:34 PM
- 1546 Views
This is the expected ritual for the Kings and Queens meeting the Amyrlin
15/12/2010 10:39:45 PM
- 788 Views
It's a mere mark of respect to the Amyrlin Seat (the position, not the woman)
16/12/2010 02:01:17 AM
- 917 Views
Interesting points
16/12/2010 10:41:52 AM
- 777 Views
Re: Interesting points
16/12/2010 01:57:56 PM
- 739 Views
I disliked her actions
16/12/2010 03:46:44 PM
- 693 Views
It's not like the Kin weren't getting anything out of the deal, so what's the problem?
16/12/2010 04:33:16 PM
- 694 Views
BTW by "High Queen" I meant that other rulers showed her respect, not that she ruled them.
16/12/2010 04:42:40 PM
- 694 Views
This deserves its own thread..
16/12/2010 08:51:05 PM
- 831 Views
Re: This deserves its own thread..
17/12/2010 02:30:21 PM
- 899 Views
Re: This deserves its own thread..
17/12/2010 04:46:28 PM
- 695 Views
I think we largely agree, but...
17/12/2010 06:59:46 PM
- 720 Views
Re: It's a mere mark of respect to the Amyrlin Seat (the position, not the woman)
16/12/2010 11:36:22 PM
- 784 Views
question for you, cause you are kind of missing the point of what Elayne is doing
20/12/2010 09:07:17 PM
- 685 Views
Re: question for you, cause you are kind of missing the point of what Elayne is doing
22/12/2010 09:55:01 PM
- 911 Views
excellent observations ... makes me think the real reason it's been so hard for a Monarch
20/12/2010 08:42:34 PM
- 677 Views
Elaida / Siuan versus Morgase springs to mind
16/12/2010 07:00:21 AM
- 907 Views
yes, because that question is totally a yes/no question
16/12/2010 11:49:34 PM
- 735 Views
You can rephrase as 'What's more important to you, being Aes Sedai or being Queen of Andor'
17/12/2010 02:54:19 AM
- 819 Views
The Nobles don't really have any reason to assume the Amyrlin would do that
20/12/2010 08:50:54 PM
- 712 Views