Egwene isn't supposed to be a leader. She's a dictator and a politician.
lilltempest Send a noteboard - 16/12/2010 08:21:13 PM
Though I'm no fan of Egwene by any stretch of the imagination, and think she is just as bad of a "person" as Elaida is (and a horrible excuse for a friend), she deserves credit for being the perfect epitome of a politician and dictator.
When considering Egwene's future, there is one very important thing you must consider...
Egwene was clearly RJ's favorite character. Everything has always fallen into her lap, she's referred to as beautiful by everyone, everyone thinks she's brilliant and perfect, she always comes out on top, everyone acts like she walks on water and the few who don't (and those who try to stand up to her instead of worshiping her every word and action) get humiliated/blackmailed/killed, and she gets praised and acts self-righteous about all the things other characters get reamed for (in other words, different morals and rules of conduct have been applied to her by the author and the character in the book than get applied to every other character). She is what fanfic readers and writers refer to (derogatorily) as a Mary Sue. As a rule, Mary Sues never get a comeuppance and for Mary Sues like Egwene everything always works out to put them in a better (and more powerful, worshiped) position than they were two seconds ago. I wouldn't worry about her future, were I you...I'd worry about everyone else having to put up with her dictatorial, megalomaniacal attitude.
I used to think she lacked an identity as well given her penchant for latching onto one group after another, but then I realized something: she did it because she wanted knowledge and power. That desire defines her. It is all there is to her (as opposed to someone like Nyn, who is defined by her desire to heal and her love for Lan and those she considers her family and friends).
Egwene's identity is more solid now than it ever has been. Whether you see her as someone who seeks knowledge or someone who seeks power, she has always sought a better position than the one she was in. She is, and always has been, 100% ambition. There is little else to her as a person, if anything. But now achieving a better position (as in a position itself) is no longer possible because, as far as she and all of the Aes Sedai are concerned, the White Tower is above every other organization and, as the leader, she holds the most powerful position in the world. That is what she has always wanted, ever since we saw her blathering about how she wanted to be the best water carrier evah! There's nowhere to go from the top other than to expand what she controls, which she is already doing by chaining the Wise Ones, Kin, and Sea Folk to the Tower...she ultimately wants control of them and will, undoubtedly, get it. And therein lies her "power base". She also has her eye on the Black Tower and Asha'man and wants them bonded to Aes Sedai so they don't threaten her power grabbing.
The Aes Sedai may not seem to support her at times, but they give her complete and utter power over anything that matters and do not truly resist her as soon as she glares at them (this is part of the Mary Sue thing, btw). Also take into consideration that Egwene has, on more than one occasion, forced people to go along with her, be it by bullying, blackmail, or showing her "brilliance" (by providing answers that any moron could've come up with due to characters being dumbed down to elevate her). What's most important, however, is that her primary goal is to increase the White Tower's control over the world as a whole (of course, this just happens to increase what she has direct control over so it benefits her even more) and force everyone to dance to the White Tower's tune. Given the Aes Sedai's attitude ("WE ARE GODS, BOW DOWN AND OBEY OUR EVERY WHIM!", why would they not support her? She's giving them what they all want.
To begin with, she isn't a follower. Yes, she always wanted to join whatever group she encountered but she never wanted to follow the rules. She only wanted to use them to learn more and to get more power. Followers don't do that. Followers actually obey the leadership of the group they join, don't manipulate people to get their way, and don't try grab power and/or glory for themselves. Egwene doesn't obey anyone, only joins in order to use the group she's joining to further her own agenda, is manipulative as hell and gets off on forcing people to her will, and is a power monger to her teeth. So no, Egwene is no follower.
Egwene is, instead, a dictator who has finally been given the power to dictate. The Rebel Hall made the mistake of thinking she was a follower and that her eagerness to learn showed that she was easily controlled. See where that got them? Egwene was a born politician and dictator, always ambitious to be in a better position and position of more control (why do you think she chose Rand as the one to marry? There was no other woman in his house and she would have, by default, gotten to rule the roost with no mother-in-law to overrule her.). She is a narcissist and a manipulator (case in point, when she twisted things around and terrorized Nyn in TAR to get the upper hand and to cover her own ass about lying to the Wise Ones). She is, just like all the politicians in DC, out for herself and is convinced that no one else could possibly know what's best. Only her. She couldn't care less what anyone else wants and thinks anyone who disagrees with her or refuses to obey her is stupid (Rand) or dangerous (Nynaeve). She is convinced that everyone should obey her every command without question. She is, by birth and now by right since the Aes Sedai gave her the right, a dictator. And that is precisely what she wishes - from the first day we saw her, she hated anyone telling her what to do but wanted to tell everyone else what to do. Now she has it.
She does have a vision, and it's of the White Tower dominating the entire world. And, as Amyrlin, she doesn't need a "power base". The Aes Sedai are her subjects, just like the people of Andor are Elayne's subjects.
Egwene is very smart about how she deals with the Aes Sedai. She takes with one hand (insisting that everyone follow her wishes, bullying and reprimanding them for things she herself does, and blackmailing or manipulating them into complete and utter subservience to her) and gives with the other by promising them more power and glory if they obey her without thought. I don't think there is anyone in the Tower who will ever stand up to her or against her (save Nyn and Cadsuane when it comes to Rand).
Are you kidding me? Egwene has never followed rules. She breaks them at will while condemning anyone else who steps the slightest bit out of line.
John McCain is a moron and a progressive, and raised a daughter who has the mental capacity of my shoe, but that's beside the point.
What Egwene proved when she was with the rebels was that she excels at political games and will blackmail, bully, or manipulate everyone into agreeing to her wishes. In other words, she has proven to be a perfect politician.
As for the flip-flop on theThree Oaths, her reasoning is clear in tGS - the oaths can be used to manipulate and trick everyone else into believing whatever she wants them to believe since people know they can't outright lie, so they are useful as a tool to gain more control over everyone (remember her statement about how the WT has made kings and queens dance on their strings for three thousand years? that's her aim and the oaths serve it).
The tests? She insists on the tests for everyone else to force them to prove their worthiness, but refuses to take them herself. What could be more self-serving than that? What could be a better indication that she is a politician and dictator than that? "You have to follow these inane rules, but I don't. Hah!" Every choice she makes solidifies her position as a dictator who won't bend to the will of others but expects everyone to follow her wishes. Even with the Seanchan...
She single-handedly (for all practical purposes, since that's how we're supposed to see it) drove off the Seanchan and won that battle (remember her sleepy, narcissistic ramblings about how she thinks she's a hero of the horn now?). Do you really think she'll bend to the Seanchan, given how her character has been elevated and presented? No, when she finally has to deal personally with the Seanchan, they will bend to her and she'll get what she wants, which will make the Tower more powerful and, by default, will make Egwene more powerful as well. It couldn't happen any other way for a Mary Sue like her.
Before I go any further, I will declare that I dislike Egwene as a character. Having said that, after reading TOM, I have a strange feeling about Egwene's future.
When considering Egwene's future, there is one very important thing you must consider...
Egwene was clearly RJ's favorite character. Everything has always fallen into her lap, she's referred to as beautiful by everyone, everyone thinks she's brilliant and perfect, she always comes out on top, everyone acts like she walks on water and the few who don't (and those who try to stand up to her instead of worshiping her every word and action) get humiliated/blackmailed/killed, and she gets praised and acts self-righteous about all the things other characters get reamed for (in other words, different morals and rules of conduct have been applied to her by the author and the character in the book than get applied to every other character). She is what fanfic readers and writers refer to (derogatorily) as a Mary Sue. As a rule, Mary Sues never get a comeuppance and for Mary Sues like Egwene everything always works out to put them in a better (and more powerful, worshiped) position than they were two seconds ago. I wouldn't worry about her future, were I you...I'd worry about everyone else having to put up with her dictatorial, megalomaniacal attitude.
It seems to me, that she is a very odd leader, a leader without a power base. When I look at other leaders for the Light, they all have a power base, a group of people who shares something essential with them, a reason to follow them.
But who can Egwene rely on? Who form the power base of Egwene? As far as I can tell, Egwene just pit one group of AS against another group of AS, and hang on to the position without any group to call her own. Even the Green did not support her any stronger than any other Ajah, as can be seen from the secret Hall meeting. I think her lack of a power base is due to her lacking an identity of her own.
But who can Egwene rely on? Who form the power base of Egwene? As far as I can tell, Egwene just pit one group of AS against another group of AS, and hang on to the position without any group to call her own. Even the Green did not support her any stronger than any other Ajah, as can be seen from the secret Hall meeting. I think her lack of a power base is due to her lacking an identity of her own.
I used to think she lacked an identity as well given her penchant for latching onto one group after another, but then I realized something: she did it because she wanted knowledge and power. That desire defines her. It is all there is to her (as opposed to someone like Nyn, who is defined by her desire to heal and her love for Lan and those she considers her family and friends).
Egwene's identity is more solid now than it ever has been. Whether you see her as someone who seeks knowledge or someone who seeks power, she has always sought a better position than the one she was in. She is, and always has been, 100% ambition. There is little else to her as a person, if anything. But now achieving a better position (as in a position itself) is no longer possible because, as far as she and all of the Aes Sedai are concerned, the White Tower is above every other organization and, as the leader, she holds the most powerful position in the world. That is what she has always wanted, ever since we saw her blathering about how she wanted to be the best water carrier evah! There's nowhere to go from the top other than to expand what she controls, which she is already doing by chaining the Wise Ones, Kin, and Sea Folk to the Tower...she ultimately wants control of them and will, undoubtedly, get it. And therein lies her "power base". She also has her eye on the Black Tower and Asha'man and wants them bonded to Aes Sedai so they don't threaten her power grabbing.
The Aes Sedai may not seem to support her at times, but they give her complete and utter power over anything that matters and do not truly resist her as soon as she glares at them (this is part of the Mary Sue thing, btw). Also take into consideration that Egwene has, on more than one occasion, forced people to go along with her, be it by bullying, blackmail, or showing her "brilliance" (by providing answers that any moron could've come up with due to characters being dumbed down to elevate her). What's most important, however, is that her primary goal is to increase the White Tower's control over the world as a whole (of course, this just happens to increase what she has direct control over so it benefits her even more) and force everyone to dance to the White Tower's tune. Given the Aes Sedai's attitude ("WE ARE GODS, BOW DOWN AND OBEY OUR EVERY WHIM!", why would they not support her? She's giving them what they all want.
As I think harder on this, I believe based on Egwene's character growth so far, she is not fit for a leader. Let us Look back into her history. In EoTW, she want to be the best water carrier. When She met the Aiel Wise Ones, she want to be the best Aiel. When she joins the rebels, she want to be the best AS. She would take up the traits of whoever she come in contact with, and grow into that role very quickly.
That, to me, is the trait of a Great Follower. She would be a Great Administrator, after someone else had set up all the rules. In fact, Rand saw through this, and ask her to gather the world's army for him. That is percisely the job of an administrator.
That, to me, is the trait of a Great Follower. She would be a Great Administrator, after someone else had set up all the rules. In fact, Rand saw through this, and ask her to gather the world's army for him. That is percisely the job of an administrator.
To begin with, she isn't a follower. Yes, she always wanted to join whatever group she encountered but she never wanted to follow the rules. She only wanted to use them to learn more and to get more power. Followers don't do that. Followers actually obey the leadership of the group they join, don't manipulate people to get their way, and don't try grab power and/or glory for themselves. Egwene doesn't obey anyone, only joins in order to use the group she's joining to further her own agenda, is manipulative as hell and gets off on forcing people to her will, and is a power monger to her teeth. So no, Egwene is no follower.
Egwene is, instead, a dictator who has finally been given the power to dictate. The Rebel Hall made the mistake of thinking she was a follower and that her eagerness to learn showed that she was easily controlled. See where that got them? Egwene was a born politician and dictator, always ambitious to be in a better position and position of more control (why do you think she chose Rand as the one to marry? There was no other woman in his house and she would have, by default, gotten to rule the roost with no mother-in-law to overrule her.). She is a narcissist and a manipulator (case in point, when she twisted things around and terrorized Nyn in TAR to get the upper hand and to cover her own ass about lying to the Wise Ones). She is, just like all the politicians in DC, out for herself and is convinced that no one else could possibly know what's best. Only her. She couldn't care less what anyone else wants and thinks anyone who disagrees with her or refuses to obey her is stupid (Rand) or dangerous (Nynaeve). She is convinced that everyone should obey her every command without question. She is, by birth and now by right since the Aes Sedai gave her the right, a dictator. And that is precisely what she wishes - from the first day we saw her, she hated anyone telling her what to do but wanted to tell everyone else what to do. Now she has it.
An administrator does not need a power base, it only needs to evenly apply the rules given. A leader on the other hand, needs to have a vision, an idea that her followers can aspire to, and a way to realize that vision.
She does have a vision, and it's of the White Tower dominating the entire world. And, as Amyrlin, she doesn't need a "power base". The Aes Sedai are her subjects, just like the people of Andor are Elayne's subjects.
Egwene is very smart about how she deals with the Aes Sedai. She takes with one hand (insisting that everyone follow her wishes, bullying and reprimanding them for things she herself does, and blackmailing or manipulating them into complete and utter subservience to her) and gives with the other by promising them more power and glory if they obey her without thought. I don't think there is anyone in the Tower who will ever stand up to her or against her (save Nyn and Cadsuane when it comes to Rand).
She can follow the rules very well, and take advantage of the rules very well.
Are you kidding me? Egwene has never followed rules. She breaks them at will while condemning anyone else who steps the slightest bit out of line.
Her time with the Rebel AS had proven so. But so far, I don't see her coming up with any good rules, a vision of her own. Her flip-flop on the Three Oaths. Her insistence on the Tests. Her denial of her Dream about alliance with the Seanchan. She is not a good leader. John McCain was captured and tortured in Vietnam. And I am not sure if Egwene can claim her experience with the Seanchan is worse than John McCain's. John McCain can go to Vietnam without his personal grudges. Can Egwene do the same? If she want to be a good political leader, she must be able to do that, and put aside her personal feelings.
John McCain is a moron and a progressive, and raised a daughter who has the mental capacity of my shoe, but that's beside the point.
What Egwene proved when she was with the rebels was that she excels at political games and will blackmail, bully, or manipulate everyone into agreeing to her wishes. In other words, she has proven to be a perfect politician.
As for the flip-flop on theThree Oaths, her reasoning is clear in tGS - the oaths can be used to manipulate and trick everyone else into believing whatever she wants them to believe since people know they can't outright lie, so they are useful as a tool to gain more control over everyone (remember her statement about how the WT has made kings and queens dance on their strings for three thousand years? that's her aim and the oaths serve it).
The tests? She insists on the tests for everyone else to force them to prove their worthiness, but refuses to take them herself. What could be more self-serving than that? What could be a better indication that she is a politician and dictator than that? "You have to follow these inane rules, but I don't. Hah!" Every choice she makes solidifies her position as a dictator who won't bend to the will of others but expects everyone to follow her wishes. Even with the Seanchan...
She single-handedly (for all practical purposes, since that's how we're supposed to see it) drove off the Seanchan and won that battle (remember her sleepy, narcissistic ramblings about how she thinks she's a hero of the horn now?). Do you really think she'll bend to the Seanchan, given how her character has been elevated and presented? No, when she finally has to deal personally with the Seanchan, they will bend to her and she'll get what she wants, which will make the Tower more powerful and, by default, will make Egwene more powerful as well. It couldn't happen any other way for a Mary Sue like her.
Egwene, a poor leader?
16/12/2010 05:59:15 PM
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Egwene isn't supposed to be a leader. She's a dictator and a politician.
16/12/2010 08:21:13 PM
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Re: Egwene, a poor leader?
16/12/2010 10:53:20 PM
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If the Shadow had removed Elaida so Egwene was Amyrlin whilst Rand was still Dark ...
16/12/2010 11:56:08 PM
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Same thing if Elaida was in charge when meeting w/ Dark Rand. *NM*
17/12/2010 02:10:20 AM
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Except Rand wouldn't go to the WT with Elaida in charge, without having to fight
17/12/2010 02:50:18 AM
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Re: Egwene, a poor leader?
17/12/2010 03:07:40 AM
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Exactly how loyal do you think Nynaeve and Elayne are?
17/12/2010 04:52:34 AM
- 858 Views
Re: Exactly how loyal do you think Nynaeve and Elayne are?
17/12/2010 05:44:30 AM
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Re: Egwene, a poor leader?
17/12/2010 02:30:48 PM
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Re: Egwene, a poor leader?
17/12/2010 08:25:39 PM
- 803 Views
Re: Egwene, a poor leader?
18/12/2010 05:06:21 AM
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Re: Egwene, a poor leader?
19/12/2010 08:41:31 PM
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Torturing Nynaeve for exclusively her own political ends. *NM*
20/12/2010 12:14:55 AM
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Re: Torturing Nynaeve for exclusively her own political ends.
20/12/2010 01:24:12 AM
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And the most painful torments were caused by Egwene
20/12/2010 09:31:44 AM
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Re: Egwene, a poor leader?
20/12/2010 12:57:42 AM
- 821 Views
She has the same power base as any Amyrlin - the Aes Sedai, the artisans, Guards & citizens of TV
17/12/2010 05:51:20 PM
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Ta'veren vs. Mary Sue
17/12/2010 07:33:28 PM
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I see them as being the same thing.
17/12/2010 08:11:30 PM
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I don't think the case can be made for Rand having it easy
17/12/2010 11:04:58 PM
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I would say that in the grand scheme of things, Rand's had good to balance out the bad.
20/12/2010 06:27:35 PM
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Funniest statement I've ever seen on here.
18/12/2010 05:22:28 AM
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But you are just undervaluing Egwene's struggles in comparison to the other characters.
20/12/2010 06:17:17 PM
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Re: But you are just undervaluing Egwene's struggles in comparison to the other characters.
22/12/2010 05:28:01 PM
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Yes, but for completely different reasons...
18/12/2010 12:35:23 AM
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You think Egwene has more power than Tuon?
18/12/2010 12:27:01 PM
- 819 Views
Definitely...
18/12/2010 03:24:12 PM
- 849 Views
I think comparing Egwene to McCain is asking for trouble on several fronts.
20/12/2010 12:33:04 AM
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She has a pretty powerful weapon...
20/12/2010 02:41:32 AM
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RJ is more powerful.
20/12/2010 03:25:49 AM
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Re: She has a pretty powerful weapon...
20/12/2010 09:46:22 AM
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Re: She has a pretty powerful weapon...
20/12/2010 09:55:03 AM
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Re: She has a pretty powerful weapon...
20/12/2010 10:27:59 AM
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