I think you missed some things. (spoilers)
RugbyPlayingAshaman Send a noteboard - 16/09/2009 05:21:43 PM
The first quote that caught my eye:
Even the black-veiled Aiel, who had ravaged the land during the Aiel
War, had never taken the city. Many claimed this as a great victory.
Others wondered what would have happened if the Aiel had actually
wanted to cross into the city.
This stood out to me, as well, mainly because 'the city' was repeated, and it really sounds amateurish. At the very least he could substitute another word to describe Tar Valon.
The next quote, which I found infinitely more important due to the information that we were subtly given, IMO:
The rebel army was poised, but uncertain. Over fifty thousand strong,
it camped in a massive ring of tents around the smaller camp of Aes
Sedai. There was a tight perimeter between the inner camp and the
outer one, a perimeter that had most recently been intended to exclude
men, particularly those who could wield saidin.
I think you are reading too much into this statement. As of KoD, the perimeter was intended to keep the Aes Sedai close since they were being murdered by someone who wielded saidin. That person turned out to be Aran'gar.
This has nothing to do with the Ashaman. In fact, we don't even know if the Rebels have Bonded their Ashaman yet. My guess is no. Mainly because if an Ashaman Bondmate is suspected of something, by extension this suspicion incorporates the Aes Sedai. Meaning that the Aes Sedai herself would probably be dwelling with her saidin using Bondmate.
This is due to the death of the entire royal family. Rand doesn't know this, but a few sul'dam being sent back with news of a Forsaken is just going to add to the chaos in that nation. Thus he is spreading chaos by sending them back.
This has nothing to do with Egwene. In fact, I think this has more to do with Mat or Perrin.
My hunch is that he will not face Graendal. She's smart. Her palace was not meant to withstand a direct attack. She would flee, and attack from another direction. Especially since Semirhage had vanished. There would, of course, be rumours among the Chosen about what happened to her.
I actually think this is not foreshadowing - it somewhat goes back to the scene that played out a book ago. When confronted by Semirhage, and unable to reach saidin, Rand did not reach out for his sword or a weapon (useless in this confrontation) - he reached in front of Min to protect her. The implication, IMHO, is that Rand doesn't realize that it is Min that will bring him into danger once again.
7. Alivia wearing red. I found that odd. Rand's thoughts are that she meant to be confrontational, then has a random thought that she had an intensity that suggested a Whitecloak. I know this was likely a random description, but something about it bugged me. Her wearing Red (being compared with someone of the Red Ajah and worse, a Whitecloak) is not a good sign.
I don't really have a problem with this. Especially since, in this context, it really is becoming clear that Rand's descent into madness has something to do with his feelings about women.
I think you missed out on the fact that for all of Nynaeve's blustering Rand considered her an Aes Sedai just as much as he did Cadsuane with only a caveat reminder thrown in that she used to be a Wisdom.
I think Cadsuane basically has a good point, and Rand is only going to seem more insane by refusing to acknowledge it. In fact, what Rand calls "torture" is based on what happened to him at Dumai Wells - I get the feeling that he doesn't really know what the Aes Sedai do to prisoners or what Cadsuane intended. She might very well have created an altered Bond-weave that would inflict pain anytime Semirhage lied. But, personally, I think this has more to do with Rand's overall lack of respect for women as partners or equals. He's used to treating them as romantic objects or sexual creatures, but can't really conceive of one as an equal, enemy or ally. The closest he has come to this is female channelers.
In terms of Cadsuane's POV, she is following their agreement to the word. He said 'No', and she respected it. She doesn't, however, respect temper tantrums, insults or wimpy behavior. The same thing happened at the Cleansing - Rand told her what he was going to do and it was the other Aes Sedai on the scene that objected. Cadsuane merely heard him out, and then set about organizing a defense (with no verbal harangues or tongue lashings). In other words - their relationship has give and take, and she is teaching him respect.
I think that Nynaeve is finally becoming aware of the stakes in this. Egwene has been for quite some time. You can compare their Accepted tests and note that while Egwene's were wrapped with saving Rand (and by extension the world), Nynaeve's were more personal in nature. Now that Nynaeve has had her block removed, and has been studying Cadsuane and other Aes Sedai, she is achieving an emotional balance, and is able to think of herself as being a judge for the greater good.
I think you miss the point here - he considers both Egwene AND Nynaeve Aes Sedai. He is really starting to lose it when he doesn't know what Egwene would do, but is willing to stand up for a Forsaken. This is the second time in the series he has abandoned Egwene (the first was when he let Aviendha and Egwene be tormented by Lanfear) for a Forsaken, and it is a clue that his weakness is starting to distance him from his female allies. This has already happened with Mat and Perrin, but this is the first time we've seen him be so cold and inherently wrong about Min, Egwene and Nynaeve. I wonder what he thinks of Elayne.
I think it is because Nynaeve, from her prior experience as a Wisdom treating incurable illnesses, and Cadsuane, from her experiences with male channelers, know that there is nothing you can do to win an argument against a fanatic...or a mad man. However you can tally up insanity, it is becoming obvious to those around him that he really is going down that path - he has been too deeply tainted by the Dark One's touch at this point to benefit from purifying saidin. In a way, it is worse. Semirhage's claim gains traction because regardless of the "hows" or the "whys", the outcome seems pretty obvious - insanity. Exactly as she said.
I thought differently. I think, in the same way that Egwene "needs to reach the top" by working/trusting a Seanchan woman, Rand needs to do the same with his "friends".
What struck me most about Chapter 1 is that he coldly thinks of using Min as a source of love rather than a person, that he dismisses two of his friends as Aes Sedai (we haven't seen what he thinks of Elayne - if he starts calling her an Aes Sedai, I think Rand will no longer exist) and that at this point, it is very hard to argue that he is not insane (some readers really were convinced that he was merely misunderstood, but I think enough have commented over the past few books that he nosedived into irrattionality around Book VII to make this chapter very convincing).
There is also the possibility that by entering the Dream in the flesh during his desperate battles against some of the Forsaken, that his humanity itself has taken a hard blow.
Victory really does "teeter on the edge of a blade", because Rand is no longer capable of acting - he did this to himself, mainly through ignorance which he cannot be blamed for and mis-understanding his role.
This chapter stood out to me because it was the first time I didn't recognize Rand as a character, but the tenor of the POV's seemed more akin to Lews Therin. He is making the same mistakes that Lews Therin made, and I hope that Cadsuane can show him this before it's too late.
Even the black-veiled Aiel, who had ravaged the land during the Aiel
War, had never taken the city. Many claimed this as a great victory.
Others wondered what would have happened if the Aiel had actually
wanted to cross into the city.
This stood out to me, as well, mainly because 'the city' was repeated, and it really sounds amateurish. At the very least he could substitute another word to describe Tar Valon.
The next quote, which I found infinitely more important due to the information that we were subtly given, IMO:
The rebel army was poised, but uncertain. Over fifty thousand strong,
it camped in a massive ring of tents around the smaller camp of Aes
Sedai. There was a tight perimeter between the inner camp and the
outer one, a perimeter that had most recently been intended to exclude
men, particularly those who could wield saidin.
I think you are reading too much into this statement. As of KoD, the perimeter was intended to keep the Aes Sedai close since they were being murdered by someone who wielded saidin. That person turned out to be Aran'gar.
This has nothing to do with the Ashaman. In fact, we don't even know if the Rebels have Bonded their Ashaman yet. My guess is no. Mainly because if an Ashaman Bondmate is suspected of something, by extension this suspicion incorporates the Aes Sedai. Meaning that the Aes Sedai herself would probably be dwelling with her saidin using Bondmate.
4. The Seanchan refusing to contact Rand. I have a feeling that this is a sign there will be no agreement between the Seanchan and Rand. The agreement will be between Egwene and the Seanchan (when the Seanchan attack the WT then get hit by the Shadow and have to work together to survive), which will cause Rand to have to go to Egwene. That isn't good for Rand, but it's what he'll have to deal with.
This is due to the death of the entire royal family. Rand doesn't know this, but a few sul'dam being sent back with news of a Forsaken is just going to add to the chaos in that nation. Thus he is spreading chaos by sending them back.
This has nothing to do with Egwene. In fact, I think this has more to do with Mat or Perrin.
5. His thoughts on Graendal being in Arad Doman. We all knew a showdown was coming and it will apparently be in this book.
My hunch is that he will not face Graendal. She's smart. Her palace was not meant to withstand a direct attack. She would flee, and attack from another direction. Especially since Semirhage had vanished. There would, of course, be rumours among the Chosen about what happened to her.
6. Possible foreshadowing: Rand reaching for his sword, then thinking he had to stop that and reach for saidin instead. Otherwise, "it might get him killed someday".
I actually think this is not foreshadowing - it somewhat goes back to the scene that played out a book ago. When confronted by Semirhage, and unable to reach saidin, Rand did not reach out for his sword or a weapon (useless in this confrontation) - he reached in front of Min to protect her. The implication, IMHO, is that Rand doesn't realize that it is Min that will bring him into danger once again.
7. Alivia wearing red. I found that odd. Rand's thoughts are that she meant to be confrontational, then has a random thought that she had an intensity that suggested a Whitecloak. I know this was likely a random description, but something about it bugged me. Her wearing Red (being compared with someone of the Red Ajah and worse, a Whitecloak) is not a good sign.
8. Cadsuane making Rand change his tone with a cocked eyebrow. I hate Cadsuane and have made no bones about sharing my feelings about her. I think she's overly abrasive, rude, and downright abusive to Rand and Nynaeve. However, this amused me. In KoD and the previous books, I thought she treated him like crap and didn't like her smacking him around. But when I compare that treatment to this - a mere cocked eyebrow - it seems different because, in this scene, she reminds me of a parent reminding an adult son that even though he's all grown up he'd better show some respect. As my mother always tells me, even now, she brought me into this world and she can take me out of it. When I get too...animated...she does the eyebrow cock at me and it has the same effect that Cadsuane's had on Rand. That sort of correction doesn't bother me.
I don't really have a problem with this. Especially since, in this context, it really is becoming clear that Rand's descent into madness has something to do with his feelings about women.
9. Cadsuane vs. Nynaeve. Again, it surprised me. Cadsuane wasn't respectful of Nynaeve in the least, but she let her have her say and despite the insulting "girl" crap, she even agreed with her on the topic of Semirhage. I'm not sure if this is simply BS's voice for Caddy or if RJ really meant for Caddy to start treating Rand and Nyn a bit better, but I like it. Whether or not it will continue, I'm not sure. This quote, however, really amused m
I think you missed out on the fact that for all of Nynaeve's blustering Rand considered her an Aes Sedai just as much as he did Cadsuane with only a caveat reminder thrown in that she used to be a Wisdom.
10. Rand's refusal to let Cadsuane and Nynaeve hurt Semirhage or even threaten her in order to get information. I love Rand, but he's a numskull with this. Nynaeve's comment that Semirhage tells them that she'll kill them all may be foreshadowing and, in a way, I hope it is. Perhaps if Semirhage wastes Min or Nynaeve or Cadsuane (after Rand thinks to himself that she is worth her constant demands for decorum), he may stop being such an idiot about treating women of the Shadow as if they're delicate little flowers who must be treated with the utmost gentleness.
I think Cadsuane basically has a good point, and Rand is only going to seem more insane by refusing to acknowledge it. In fact, what Rand calls "torture" is based on what happened to him at Dumai Wells - I get the feeling that he doesn't really know what the Aes Sedai do to prisoners or what Cadsuane intended. She might very well have created an altered Bond-weave that would inflict pain anytime Semirhage lied. But, personally, I think this has more to do with Rand's overall lack of respect for women as partners or equals. He's used to treating them as romantic objects or sexual creatures, but can't really conceive of one as an equal, enemy or ally. The closest he has come to this is female channelers.
11. Cadsuane agreeing to do as Rand wishes with Semirhage despite her knowing that it's pure idiocy. I actually expected Cadsuane to be running things and Rand to be forced to accept it. Cadsuane has to see the danger of doing as Rand wishes, to herself and to Rand and his other allies, yet she obeys his wishes. It's...shocking. As much as I like Rand and want to see him supported completely, in Caddy's and Nyn's position I'd likely do as I pleased and ask forgiveness later, but perhaps the lesson she has to teach him will come as a result of his idiocy with Semirhage. One can hope, at least.
In terms of Cadsuane's POV, she is following their agreement to the word. He said 'No', and she respected it. She doesn't, however, respect temper tantrums, insults or wimpy behavior. The same thing happened at the Cleansing - Rand told her what he was going to do and it was the other Aes Sedai on the scene that objected. Cadsuane merely heard him out, and then set about organizing a defense (with no verbal harangues or tongue lashings). In other words - their relationship has give and take, and she is teaching him respect.
12. Nynaeve's comment about the rules not applying to Semirhage. Me thinks Nynaeve's darker side might be attempting to get to the surface. We really haven't seen it from her yet - she was almost too lenient with the sul'dam when she rescued Egwene and was too lenient with Moghedien by far - but I have to wonder if the threat Semirhage poses may be making her harder. Perhaps whatever happens with Semirhage may not only knock some sense into Rand but will give Nynaeve more of an edge as well.
I think that Nynaeve is finally becoming aware of the stakes in this. Egwene has been for quite some time. You can compare their Accepted tests and note that while Egwene's were wrapped with saving Rand (and by extension the world), Nynaeve's were more personal in nature. Now that Nynaeve has had her block removed, and has been studying Cadsuane and other Aes Sedai, she is achieving an emotional balance, and is able to think of herself as being a judge for the greater good.
13. Anyone who knows me had to know I'd comment on this:
“Turn her over to the White Tower, you say?” he said, glancing back
into the room. “Which White Tower? Would you entrust her to Elaida?
Or did you mean the others? I doubt that Egwene would be pleased if I
dropped one of the Forsaken in her lap. Egwene might just let
Semirhage go and take me captive instead. Force me to kneel before
the White Tower’s justice and gentle me just to give her another notch
in her belt.”
Nynaeve frowned. “Rand! Egwene would never—”
“She’s Amyrlin,” he said, downing his cup of wine in one gulp. It was as
putrid as he recalled. “Aes Sedai to the core. I’m just another pawn to
her.”
“Turn her over to the White Tower, you say?” he said, glancing back
into the room. “Which White Tower? Would you entrust her to Elaida?
Or did you mean the others? I doubt that Egwene would be pleased if I
dropped one of the Forsaken in her lap. Egwene might just let
Semirhage go and take me captive instead. Force me to kneel before
the White Tower’s justice and gentle me just to give her another notch
in her belt.”
Nynaeve frowned. “Rand! Egwene would never—”
“She’s Amyrlin,” he said, downing his cup of wine in one gulp. It was as
putrid as he recalled. “Aes Sedai to the core. I’m just another pawn to
her.”
I think you miss the point here - he considers both Egwene AND Nynaeve Aes Sedai. He is really starting to lose it when he doesn't know what Egwene would do, but is willing to stand up for a Forsaken. This is the second time in the series he has abandoned Egwene (the first was when he let Aviendha and Egwene be tormented by Lanfear) for a Forsaken, and it is a clue that his weakness is starting to distance him from his female allies. This has already happened with Mat and Perrin, but this is the first time we've seen him be so cold and inherently wrong about Min, Egwene and Nynaeve. I wonder what he thinks of Elayne.
14. Cadsuane's reaction to Rand yelling at Lews Therin. Again, I do loathe her, but I found this priceless. She calmly sips tea while Rand yells at a voice in his head. Nynaeve's reaction was almost as good: a yank of the braid. Neither one goes off on him for yelling and no one tells him he's screwed in the head. They just accept it and keep going, in their own way. By the way, what was the "knowing" look from Alivia? She's beginning to give me the creeps in this chapter.
I think it is because Nynaeve, from her prior experience as a Wisdom treating incurable illnesses, and Cadsuane, from her experiences with male channelers, know that there is nothing you can do to win an argument against a fanatic...or a mad man. However you can tally up insanity, it is becoming obvious to those around him that he really is going down that path - he has been too deeply tainted by the Dark One's touch at this point to benefit from purifying saidin. In a way, it is worse. Semirhage's claim gains traction because regardless of the "hows" or the "whys", the outcome seems pretty obvious - insanity. Exactly as she said.
15. This part made me want to cry for Rand:
The thought was trivial. Ridiculous. He wanted to laugh. Only, the
sound wouldn’t come out. He couldn’t summon even a wry humor, not
anymore. Light! I can’t keep this up. My eyes see as if in a fog, my
hand is burned away, and the old wounds in my side rip open if I do
anything more strenuous than breathe. I’m dry, like an overused
well. I need to finish my work here and get to Shayol Ghul.
Otherwise, there won’t be anything left of me for the Dark One to kill.
The thought was trivial. Ridiculous. He wanted to laugh. Only, the
sound wouldn’t come out. He couldn’t summon even a wry humor, not
anymore. Light! I can’t keep this up. My eyes see as if in a fog, my
hand is burned away, and the old wounds in my side rip open if I do
anything more strenuous than breathe. I’m dry, like an overused
well. I need to finish my work here and get to Shayol Ghul.
Otherwise, there won’t be anything left of me for the Dark One to kill.
I thought differently. I think, in the same way that Egwene "needs to reach the top" by working/trusting a Seanchan woman, Rand needs to do the same with his "friends".
What struck me most about Chapter 1 is that he coldly thinks of using Min as a source of love rather than a person, that he dismisses two of his friends as Aes Sedai (we haven't seen what he thinks of Elayne - if he starts calling her an Aes Sedai, I think Rand will no longer exist) and that at this point, it is very hard to argue that he is not insane (some readers really were convinced that he was merely misunderstood, but I think enough have commented over the past few books that he nosedived into irrattionality around Book VII to make this chapter very convincing).
There is also the possibility that by entering the Dream in the flesh during his desperate battles against some of the Forsaken, that his humanity itself has taken a hard blow.
Victory really does "teeter on the edge of a blade", because Rand is no longer capable of acting - he did this to himself, mainly through ignorance which he cannot be blamed for and mis-understanding his role.
This chapter stood out to me because it was the first time I didn't recognize Rand as a character, but the tenor of the POV's seemed more akin to Lews Therin. He is making the same mistakes that Lews Therin made, and I hope that Cadsuane can show him this before it's too late.
"Those who think they have no time for bodily exercise will sooner or later have to find time for illness."
This message last edited by RugbyPlayingAshaman on 16/09/2009 at 05:26:41 PM
Your thoughts on TGS - Chapter 1
05/09/2009 05:23:47 PM
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For all of those whining about it not sounding like RJ:
05/09/2009 05:47:07 PM
- 1848 Views
You're forgetting one thing.
06/09/2009 12:13:03 AM
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And if he were to off Egwene? What would your opinion be? *NM*
07/09/2009 05:38:36 AM
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He dislikes Sanderson's prose. Plot content is irrelevant here. *NM*
08/09/2009 06:44:42 PM
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Pretty good.
05/09/2009 07:35:41 PM
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Re: Pretty good.
05/09/2009 09:13:44 PM
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I found it well-written, but rather uninteresting story-wise *NM*
05/09/2009 08:04:15 PM
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because there should totaly be massive plot development in the first chapter
05/09/2009 08:29:18 PM
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I'm tired of passive story telling.
05/09/2009 08:57:13 PM
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I'm tired of mindless readers
06/09/2009 01:54:14 AM
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Re: I'm tired of mindless readers
06/09/2009 04:01:56 AM
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I was over critical.
06/09/2009 04:56:48 AM
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A real analyst or literary critic would laugh his ass off to see this...
06/09/2009 06:51:57 AM
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Re: because there should totaly be massive plot development in the first chapter
06/09/2009 01:22:09 AM
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A few things that drew my attention... (this is long and rambling...spoilers)
05/09/2009 09:34:44 PM
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Re: A few things that drew my attention... (this is long and rambling...spoilers)
05/09/2009 10:03:59 PM
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Re: A few things that drew my attention... (this is long and rambling...spoilers)
06/09/2009 03:18:41 AM
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I think Lews Therin's comments to Rand were the most hugely significant part of the chapter.
06/09/2009 01:15:05 AM
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Re: A few things that drew my attention... (this is long and rambling...spoilers)
06/09/2009 02:52:47 AM
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Re: A few things that drew my attention... (this is long and rambling...spoilers)
06/09/2009 07:08:08 AM
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Re: A few things that drew my attention... (this is long and rambling...spoilers)
06/09/2009 10:31:20 AM
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Re: A few things that drew my attention... (this is long and rambling...spoilers)
07/09/2009 05:09:38 AM
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Re: A few things that drew my attention... (this is long and rambling...spoilers)
08/09/2009 10:19:13 PM
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Re: A few things that drew my attention... (this is long and rambling...spoilers)
10/09/2009 06:20:56 AM
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Re: A few things that drew my attention... (this is long and rambling...spoilers)
08/09/2009 11:46:44 PM
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Re: A few things that drew my attention... (this is long and rambling...spoilers)
07/09/2009 04:41:47 AM
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Re: A few things that drew my attention... (this is long and rambling...spoilers)
09/09/2009 03:48:53 PM
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I think you missed some things. (spoilers)
16/09/2009 05:21:43 PM
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Good post, but I have an alternative explanation for the saidin barrier
28/09/2009 12:53:41 AM
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Robert Jordon vs Brandon Sanderson
06/09/2009 12:02:13 AM
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Re: Robert Jordon vs Brandon Sanderson
06/09/2009 05:12:25 PM
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Re: Robert Jordon vs Brandon Sanderson
06/09/2009 07:20:45 PM
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I found it...interesting --spoilers--
06/09/2009 01:33:11 AM
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I liked it
06/09/2009 07:58:09 AM
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Some questions...
06/09/2009 08:04:30 AM
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Theory: Rand and Egwene. What is up?
06/09/2009 07:59:58 AM
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A simpler answer
06/09/2009 03:04:04 PM
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Really?
06/09/2009 03:38:59 PM
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Look at what he has seen...
06/09/2009 11:45:44 PM
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And all this happeened in the few days between the end of KoD and the beginning of tGS?
07/09/2009 12:35:29 AM
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Why not? How often did he think of Egwene in A Plain Wooden Box? It might have been there already
07/09/2009 05:29:27 AM
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She treated him like a pawn when she "passed" him over to Elayne way back. NM *NM*
07/09/2009 02:49:18 PM
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are we already at the location of the book cover?
06/09/2009 11:49:06 AM
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Two Things
07/09/2009 12:25:31 AM
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My thoughts are that the main page is being crowded by too many duplicate threads
07/09/2009 10:23:41 PM
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I know why Rand is mad at Egwene...read inside to find out
11/09/2009 03:15:00 AM
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Ummm... the embassy's proposal was accepted, and (presumably) communicated to Egwene at the earliest *NM*
11/09/2009 04:16:31 AM
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Semirhage isn't scaring anyone
28/09/2009 02:32:34 PM
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Indeed...
28/09/2009 03:36:55 PM
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Will the Chosen pass that edict down or just not act themselves?
28/09/2009 10:29:53 PM
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