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From the standpoint of actually changing Tower rules and traditions I agree with you. Joel Send a noteboard - 16/12/2010 02:13:44 PM
Not because refusal to do so would "un-Aes Sedai" her (it doesn't seem to have done so with Siuan, or Leane or, um, a certain uppity Two Rivers Amyrlin... ) but because it would've put her more in the role of that vigilante. She would be going rogue, denying the authority of both Tower and Amyrlin. Aes Sedai swear the Three Oaths; an Aes Sedai who refuses to do so repudiates one of their core principles. She'd still be Aes Sedai, but an Aes Sedai who wants to make her own rules every bit as much as Elaida and every bit as much to the Towers detriment. You know what would make the world even MORE suspicious than they already are of Aes Sedai who deceive and prevaricate to maintain nominal adherence to the Three Oaths? Catching an Aes Sedai in a lie that "proves" the vaunted Three Oaths are just another lie.

That's why the Tower would want her to. It justifies absolutely nothing regarding their right to impose the Oaths on her and has no relevance to her personal rights or obligations. As for the whole "going rogue" thing (interesting choice of words - Malkier isn't quite Alaska ), why do you think I wanted her to refrain from swearing? My prescription for the Tower and the ills besetting is short & simple: In the words of Voltaire, "Ecrasez l'infame!"

I personally think the Oaths are inane and do more harm than good, whether it's preventing Aes Sedai from using lethal force to avoid Whitecloak abduction that will end in a hanging just because the ones holding her at the point of a crossbow won't actually KILL her themselves so long as she complies, or everyone in Randland, including other Aes Sedai, sifting every word that leaves their lips for prevarication and equivocation. If Nynaeve had told them to stick their Oath Rod where the sun doesn't shine and it precipitated a mass revolt that led to the end of Oaths for EVERYONE I'd applaud. I certainly wouldn't want to be the one who has to tell the "living weapon" Asha'man that they must swear a binding Oath never to kill with the Power unless their life's in danger, but if the Oaths remain Tower law I think that conversation must take place after Tarmon Gaidion. In the final analysis, there's no virtue in any oath made under duress, and making someones shawl dependent on swearing the Oaths when they've already proven themselves is duress in my book. It's like denying someone their diploma because they didn't show up for a final they didn't need to pass a class.

The problem, unsurprisingly, is Egwene (yeah, yeah... ), or rather, the Amyrlins commitment to an obsolete and counterproductive Tower rule that should never have been created. Her position isn't as precarious or her powers as limited as she seems to think after what we've seen of the rank and file acclaiming the Hero of the Seanchan Raid and the Sitters of both the Tower in Exile AND the Usurper Tower voting her Amyrlin. If she said Aes Sedai need no longer swear the Oaths, who's going to argue with her? The last person who argued Tower law with her is wearing a collar in Ebou Dar now.

Yet Egwene let Siuan convince her "the Oaths are what MAKE us Aes Sedai" even if she delayed long enough to rationalize it as entirely her decision. If the Oaths are to remain part of the Towers secret handshake, Nynaeve unilaterally refusing them would be turning her back on the Tower of which she nominally wants to be a part. It wouldn't make her any less Aes Sedai than Elaida or Bonwhin were, but it WOULD make her a rather disgusting kind of Aes Sedai that recognizes no authority with which she disagrees. She'd still be Aes Sedai by right of merit and accomplishment, but repudiating such a basic Aes Sedai principle would make her a shameful blot on the order. The only way that's acceptable, tenable, is if the Oaths are forever revoked for all Aes Sedai, not just the really powerful ones who can reject them because they grew up with the Amyrlin. Nynaeve could've forced the kind of confrontation that would've spelled an end to the Oaths, but, for whatever reason, the way things have been set up she would've lost that argument when Egwene came down heavily on the other side. I'm still not convinced the Hero of the Seanchan Raid won't end up the Martyr of Tarmon Gaidon (and before you celebrate the thought, bear in mind that if RAND survives she may get most of the credit) and if she ends up turned because she didn't see a threat to her life that would justify the Power the whole issue may be revisited. After all, any time the Shadow's trying to turn someone with a circle of Myrddraal they OBVIOUSLY don't intend to kill the person, so no channeling the Power as a weapon, even if you don't mean to kill with it.
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This message last edited by Joel on 16/12/2010 at 02:14:43 PM
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Nynaeve should not have been made to swear the Oaths - 07/12/2010 03:12:00 PM 1777 Views
Re: Nynaeve should not have been made to swear the Oaths - 07/12/2010 03:22:49 PM 996 Views
Re: Nynaeve should not have been made to swear the Oaths - 07/12/2010 10:44:01 PM 758 Views
*shrugs* ... the oaths are lame and so full of holes the only value they bring is - 07/12/2010 03:26:21 PM 771 Views
I wonder what would have happened if she refused and left the tower entirely. - 07/12/2010 03:30:58 PM 764 Views
I doubt they would have stopped her ... but there was no real reason for her to refuse the - 07/12/2010 03:34:20 PM 725 Views
no there wasn't a real reason for her to refuse. It'd still be interesting if she did *NM* - 07/12/2010 03:37:45 PM 364 Views
would have made for an interesting spin on the plot - 07/12/2010 05:37:31 PM 704 Views
How is she not a lead? - 07/12/2010 06:25:45 PM 682 Views
She has never really had her own unique plot line - 07/12/2010 06:34:40 PM 657 Views
I'm going to have to disagree with you on that - 07/12/2010 07:46:08 PM 716 Views
Nothing to really argue here except perspective ... to each their own *NM* - 07/12/2010 10:26:04 PM 355 Views
Re: *shrugs* ... the oaths are lame and so full of holes the only value they bring is - 07/12/2010 10:49:12 PM 745 Views
I think that is true of the testing not the Oaths - 08/12/2010 05:08:22 PM 673 Views
she shouldn't have, although I think they should trash the oaths in general - 07/12/2010 03:29:21 PM 687 Views
agreed! and I think Nynaeve's testing rather proved that point - 07/12/2010 03:35:38 PM 749 Views
Especially since Egwene herself didn't really think it necessary for herself to take the tests - 07/12/2010 03:43:18 PM 728 Views
well it looks like such a coalition is part of the plan - 07/12/2010 03:47:03 PM 713 Views
I meant one that would destroy the White Tower - 07/12/2010 03:53:35 PM 775 Views
ahh I see. well maybe they shall - 07/12/2010 04:00:52 PM 670 Views
She was always going to have to swear the Oaths - 07/12/2010 04:42:59 PM 691 Views
Good old political necessity - 07/12/2010 06:29:26 PM 597 Views
Amyrlin's decree - 07/12/2010 09:56:51 PM 678 Views
Brace yourselves, everybody... - 08/12/2010 02:56:43 PM 631 Views
Ooops, double post! *NM* - 08/12/2010 02:58:01 PM 353 Views
And what? To miss all the awesomeness she had before/during/after the test? - 07/12/2010 06:27:23 PM 661 Views
I agree about the test, kind of. The Oaths was going too far. - 07/12/2010 07:02:43 PM 817 Views
Re: I agree about the test, kind of. The Oaths was going too far. - 16/12/2010 10:40:39 AM 555 Views
And yet people keep choosing donuts over lettuce *NM* - 16/12/2010 10:47:04 AM 372 Views
It's supposed to be a required part of being Aes Sedai. - 08/12/2010 08:52:34 AM 626 Views
Has Egwene swore the Oaths? - 08/12/2010 03:11:37 PM 737 Views
Yes - she swore on the Oath Rod in TGS. *NM* - 08/12/2010 03:22:31 PM 406 Views
Love Nynaeve... - 10/12/2010 09:49:13 AM 630 Views
On the contrary, being Aes Sedai means she had to swear the Oaths. - 14/12/2010 04:53:28 AM 615 Views
Re: On the contrary, being Aes Sedai means she had to swear the Oaths. - 14/12/2010 11:53:43 AM 685 Views
Passing your scars on - 14/12/2010 07:07:43 PM 542 Views
Re: Passing your scars on - 14/12/2010 10:45:01 PM 707 Views
Actually I'm not being flippant - 15/12/2010 05:58:22 AM 645 Views
So? - 15/12/2010 11:40:32 AM 709 Views
From the standpoint of actually changing Tower rules and traditions I agree with you. - 16/12/2010 02:13:44 PM 1113 Views

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