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Yes. But since you continue to not answer the main question, necessary. fionwe1987 Send a noteboard - 13/12/2010 11:24:24 PM

No, it's pointing out that she was ready to fight 5 AS until she heard forkroot then immediately shifted thought processes to think up a new strategy based on what information she knew from Nynaeve... it sets the entire stage for the rest of the scene. Egwene is realizing that she has more than being physically beat up to over come when it comes to Channeling.

This is still completely irrelevant to her later PoV regarding Silviana. You might as well start talking about how to defeat the Dark One, if you want to continue discussing irrelevant points...


Because she and Elayne lived through it!

No they did not. They lived through a completely different experience where they were given doses of an unknown nature once every hour, which knocked them out completely, and made them unable to channel even after an hour. Egwene's dose knocked her out for a few minutes, and in an hour at the most, she was able to channel.

And it's what she used against Moghedien and it's part of the scene when Egwene calls Nynaeve out for lying to her ... Egwene would know as much about the affects of forkroot as Nynaeve herself.

And Nynaeve did not know much. It took several Borwns to study to drug to realize that you can make a tincture that can interfere with the ability to channel, but not knock you out!

Let's be honest, what is there to tell about forkroot other than what it does to a Channeler?

But it doesn't have the same effect all the time. You can say, "forkroot is an herb which knocks channelers out and makes them unable to channel". Which, evidently, is exactly what Nynaeve told Egwene. But, more than that, we didn't know till we heard of the research the Browns had done, which we only learned from Silviana.

Egwene thinks of Silviana's strength because she doesn't have any idea to what degree her own ability is currently affected.

But that would be a reason for her to not think of her strength! If you don't know how strong you are, why would you make any statements on how someone else compares to you? You need yourself as a point of reference for such a comparison, and in your version of the events, Egwene has no clue how strong or weak she may have been at that time!

She's not been able to embrace the Source,

You mean she hadn't tried...
in fact the AS don't know how much it will affect her either, thus the strong shields.

Bullshit! They knew how it would affect her since they used precise doses! In your version of events, Katerine wonders why two of them would be needed to shield Egwene because she knows Egwene will be weakened. You cannot now say she didn't know this and hence used a strong shield! Your whole scenario is full of holes.

She knows she'll be weaker,

You just said she:
doesn't have any idea to what degree her own ability is currently affected.

Are you even aware of what you're writing?

and given Silviana's strength she realizes there's no way she could break a shield at less than full ability.

Then she'd have said that! But she makes no mention of her own ability being weakened. You yourself claim she wasn't aware of that. That means that Egwene assumed that since the effect of forkroot, in so far as making her unable to reach the source, was lifted, that meant she could now draw to her fullest ability. So, we need to see her statement in the light of that.

We know Silviana must be close to Amys in strength from the various behaviors (ordering Katerine around etc) so Egwene has to realize that if she struggled to break a shield Amys held on her Siliviana under these circumstances would have no problems.

But that is not what she says! She says there is no hope for her to break Silviana's shield because Silviana is far from weak. Absolutely no qualifiers about forkroot or any weakening of her abilities. If you're allowed to now imagine up extra qualifiers for all statements made by characters, I'll do so too, and probably be able to prove that Rand is weaker than Morghase!

It's clear she believes she can actually reach the Source by this point, but it's equally clear from the countless instances of her later channeling that she'll be very weak for hours!

Neither the readers nor Egwene knew this at that point. In fact, till Silviana tells us that you can make doses of forkroot that allow you to only channel a trickle, no one knew that forkroot can be used to reduce the amount of OP one channels, instead of just blocking access to the source.


Go re-read LOC Figs and Mice.

I did.

It's obvious that a Channeler's ability slowly comes back.

No it isn't! Elayne struggles to <>reach for the source, but there is no mention of how much they can channel once they manage that.

Elayne and Nynaeve lay there and slowly got closer and closer to reaching the Source by the minute.

Yes. Reaching the source. You'll notice that there's nothing about reduced ability once they do reach the source.

It's a clear indication that the affects of the tea would slowly degenerate.

That slowly, you'd be able to reach the source is obvious. That the amount you can channel will also increase over time is not at all obvious.


That is your interpretation.

And yours, apparently. Again... are you sure you know what you're typing?

In Figs and Mice we see Elayne and Nynaeve go from barely being able to move to walking around and talking in fairly short order, but neither of then Channel a spark. It seems rather obvious that ALL the effects would take time to wear off.

Well, I hope you're not a scientist. Just because physical abilities recover in one way doesn't mean channeling abilities will recover in the same way. That that turns out to be true doesn't preclude any alternatives.

By your logic, when someone removes a shield, the channeler can only slowly be able to draw in to their maximum potential. But we all know that a shield works by an all or nothing mechanism, unless you make a special shield. Forkroot could have been exactly the same.


It amounts to the same thing.

I could almost win the Nobel Prize. But I did not win the Nobel Prize. Obviously, I won the Nobel Prize?

In the end Egwene would have battered down the Shield. Amys cannot hold Egwene for any length of time. Therefore neither could the weaker Silviana.

What rot! We have seen Aes Sedai do shielding like none other. Mylen shields three women, two of whom were pretty strong, by AS standards! If Mylen (who at best, is as strong as Silviana) can shield Joline, Teslyn and Edesina, Silviana can certainly shield Egwene!


That's pure speculation.

And your ideas are from a secret email RJ sent you?

Egwene has no way of knowing if Silviana is better at shielding than Amys

Of course she does! She's the only person who has compared the skills of Aes Sedai and Wise Ones.

and she knows for fact that she could break Amys shield.

She knows she can hammer at it and exhaust Amys.

Note that she also doesn't even try to attack the shield as her entire plan was always soem kind of surprise attack.

Because she says there is no way for her to break the shield, period.

Even if she thinks she may eventually break through Silviana she wouldn't be able to escape, so she doesn't try!

What? If she could break through, she'd have made mincemeat of Silviana and the other two and been on her merry way!
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More evidence that Elayne is much weaker than the Forsaken - 09/12/2010 03:45:27 PM 3226 Views
Yes. - 09/12/2010 04:39:58 PM 1540 Views
No. - 09/12/2010 05:34:57 PM 1393 Views
Indeed! *NM* - 09/12/2010 05:39:47 PM 754 Views
Actually...exponential or at least non-linear makes alot of sense to me - 09/12/2010 06:27:29 PM 1303 Views
Nope. Then Rand would be able to crush 13 Aes Sedai with ease. - 09/12/2010 06:32:53 PM 1536 Views
Three things: - 09/12/2010 06:47:30 PM 1331 Views
I think that RJ's statement that the strongest man and strongest women were equal... - 10/12/2010 03:23:12 PM 1232 Views
I wasn't aware this was an issue? - 09/12/2010 04:45:02 PM 1350 Views
Agreed. - 20/12/2010 01:17:32 AM 1408 Views
not really - 09/12/2010 04:46:42 PM 1328 Views
and you'll note that none of the angreal are considered particularly strong - 09/12/2010 04:48:14 PM 1263 Views
She probably weaved them separately on account of being pregnant *NM* - 09/12/2010 04:56:12 PM 808 Views
Pregnancy seems to be interfere with her ability to grasp the power - 09/12/2010 05:06:15 PM 1298 Views
I don't know if it's a more complex CHANNELING undertaking, though - 09/12/2010 05:42:57 PM 1216 Views
Re: not really - 09/12/2010 05:16:02 PM 1229 Views
Angreal have buffers - 09/12/2010 05:38:45 PM 1252 Views
none of them are very strong - 09/12/2010 05:38:49 PM 1222 Views
We never really get a feel for their relative strengths - 09/12/2010 05:51:38 PM 1137 Views
Re: We never really get a feel for their relative strengths - 09/12/2010 10:00:23 PM 1375 Views
Exactly - 10/12/2010 09:36:52 AM 1400 Views
Yes. In PoD Aviendha states that the woman-wrapped-in-hair angreal almost doubles her strength... - 09/12/2010 06:30:41 PM 1260 Views
you have the wrong angreal and the wrong strength - 09/12/2010 07:07:18 PM 1243 Views
Nope. You are the one whose got the wrong angreal... - 09/12/2010 07:15:38 PM 1043 Views
where is that quote my friend? - 09/12/2010 08:07:50 PM 1108 Views
PoD: The Breaking Storm - 09/12/2010 08:16:58 PM 1057 Views
Ah yes, ... "almost 2x as much" still doesn't support your assertion that Nyn is 50% above Elayne - 09/12/2010 08:20:37 PM 1204 Views
That's a gross skewing of what that sentence means... - 09/12/2010 09:05:05 PM 1220 Views
Don't be absurd... - 09/12/2010 09:21:00 PM 1210 Views
Yes, but does BS know that? - 09/12/2010 09:26:10 PM 1152 Views
Nonsense... - 09/12/2010 09:45:17 PM 1176 Views
she does not say that! she says Moghedien could kill her before she could react. so could Daigian - 09/12/2010 09:34:50 PM 1285 Views
"The only Aes Sedai who could hope to match one of the Forsaken was in Ebou Dar..." - 09/12/2010 09:44:25 PM 1309 Views
And yet... - 09/12/2010 09:48:34 PM 1220 Views
No, Egwene does NOT think she can defeat Mesaana in a One Power battle... - 09/12/2010 09:59:35 PM 1455 Views
Here are te quotes... - 09/12/2010 10:10:09 PM 1252 Views
Did you not read the quote above, made by Egwene in the heat of battle with Mesaana? - 09/12/2010 10:34:05 PM 1256 Views
It might interest you to know that that was Katerine! - 10/12/2010 12:15:51 AM 1068 Views
Oh nonsense - 10/12/2010 04:43:44 AM 1148 Views
But that's his point. - 10/12/2010 06:01:59 AM 1155 Views
its a useless point - 10/12/2010 10:11:00 AM 1250 Views
Yes, utterly useless... - 10/12/2010 11:46:15 AM 1197 Views
Dude, you need to re-read the books... - 10/12/2010 04:15:11 PM 1149 Views
he means Sheriam, but your points still hold true - 10/12/2010 08:19:16 PM 1161 Views
Re: he means Sheriam, but your points still hold true - 11/12/2010 07:21:49 AM 1222 Views
I'm so glad you're a mod! Setting great standards there... - 10/12/2010 04:11:56 PM 1115 Views
Re: I'm so glad you're a mod! Setting great standards there... - 10/12/2010 04:35:23 PM 1184 Views
What? - 10/12/2010 11:19:57 PM 1238 Views
Re: What? - 11/12/2010 07:20:19 AM 1197 Views
Oh boohoo... - 11/12/2010 07:55:58 PM 1219 Views
Duh! Seriously, are you Elaida or something? Your logic is astounding. - 10/12/2010 06:47:17 AM 1082 Views
Duh! Seriously, are you Elaida or something? Your logic is astounding. - 10/12/2010 06:47:18 AM 1204 Views
Nynaeve has been channeling (albeit blocked) for close to 10 years - 10/12/2010 02:24:57 PM 1296 Views
Think about the logic of what you're proposing... - 10/12/2010 02:39:56 PM 1240 Views
It's what's in the friggin books! - 10/12/2010 03:33:08 PM 1208 Views
Duplicate post - deleted *NM* - 09/12/2010 08:19:05 PM 598 Views
Re: Yes. - 09/12/2010 07:49:12 PM 1233 Views
You're obviously a latecomer to this ongoing debate. Here's a recap... - 09/12/2010 08:03:51 PM 1333 Views
where this falls apart is that Daigian at a 10 is too weak - 09/12/2010 08:16:17 PM 1263 Views
Nope... - 09/12/2010 08:44:51 PM 969 Views
now you are just force fitting quotes into what you want to say - 09/12/2010 09:29:20 PM 1083 Views
Nope... - 09/12/2010 09:42:58 PM 1159 Views
all of the girls were Forced! Nynaeve was already at least as strong as Moiraine in EoTW - 11/12/2010 08:04:02 PM 1210 Views
Re: all of the girls were Forced! Nynaeve was already at least as strong as Moiraine in EoTW - 11/12/2010 11:59:55 PM 1144 Views
that's the point I'm making - 12/12/2010 12:58:38 AM 1013 Views
I don't think Elayne was forced - 12/12/2010 04:33:26 PM 1181 Views
Re: now you are just force fitting quotes into what you want to say - 10/12/2010 01:17:10 AM 1361 Views
nope - 10/12/2010 02:05:00 PM 1293 Views
Mesaana - 10/12/2010 04:43:07 AM 1055 Views
agreed - 10/12/2010 01:48:59 PM 1121 Views
Re: agreed - 10/12/2010 04:38:28 PM 985 Views
very true, and I find it interesting that during the TAR battle Mesaana didn't bother - 10/12/2010 05:03:43 PM 1071 Views
Re: very true, and I find it interesting that during the TAR battle Mesaana didn't bother - 11/12/2010 07:22:54 AM 1242 Views
yes and no - 11/12/2010 03:47:28 PM 1198 Views
Re: You're obviously a latecomer to this ongoing debate. Here's a recap... - 10/12/2010 09:19:17 AM 1244 Views
OK. Here's the clear evidence of Dagian's, Moiraine's, Egwenes and Moghedien's comparative levels. - 10/12/2010 12:00:48 PM 1130 Views
"clear evidence" - 10/12/2010 01:27:01 PM 1182 Views
Laughable interpretation... - 10/12/2010 01:31:57 PM 1187 Views
Re: Laughable interpretation... - 10/12/2010 03:34:01 PM 1211 Views
Amys is clearly stronger than half Egwene's strength... - 10/12/2010 04:27:30 PM 1132 Views
Doesn't the forkroot explain that? *NM* - 10/12/2010 04:47:53 PM 794 Views
couple of thoughts here - 10/12/2010 08:01:44 PM 1185 Views
Re: couple of thoughts here - 10/12/2010 11:27:19 PM 1104 Views
that's what I said! EDIT - 11/12/2010 04:03:59 PM 1005 Views
Well... - 11/12/2010 07:58:38 PM 1207 Views
Katerine is a pain in the ass and Silviana wasn't about to risk only one woman holding that shield - 11/12/2010 08:26:29 PM 1057 Views
Leane was shielded by two sisters as well - 11/12/2010 11:14:08 PM 1081 Views
I think that's almost certainly a custom for women held in the open cells - 11/12/2010 11:22:12 PM 1108 Views
Re: I think that's almost certainly a custom for women held in the open cells - 12/12/2010 12:04:33 AM 1201 Views
I agree with that completely. - 12/12/2010 01:03:54 AM 1137 Views
Oh... so we dismiss all quotes from people we don't like? - 12/12/2010 05:18:42 AM 1205 Views
re-read the section my friend. EDIT - 12/12/2010 03:58:28 PM 1106 Views
Dude... - 12/12/2010 06:29:43 PM 1075 Views
did you read the quote? They discuss how much they gave her on the way to the Tower! - 12/12/2010 07:39:55 PM 1160 Views
Not one of those things answers my rather simple question... - 13/12/2010 02:27:44 AM 1172 Views
because it's the first time Egwene has been dosed with Forkroot - 13/12/2010 03:55:18 AM 1105 Views
She knows but she doesn't know? - 13/12/2010 05:35:55 AM 1175 Views
She knows that Nynaeve had told her it dampened her ability - 13/12/2010 05:13:23 PM 1113 Views
And she doesn't know any details... - 13/12/2010 07:19:12 PM 1125 Views
this conversation is so pointless - 13/12/2010 10:43:35 PM 991 Views
Yes. But since you continue to not answer the main question, necessary. - 13/12/2010 11:24:24 PM 987 Views
Re: Yes. But since you continue to not answer the main question, necessary. - 14/12/2010 11:06:55 AM 1015 Views
Of course its obvious now! - 14/12/2010 12:44:59 PM 1219 Views
Shielding - 13/12/2010 08:01:19 PM 2567 Views
Practice. We do know that AS practice their weaves far more than WO - 13/12/2010 10:50:09 PM 1155 Views
There is, actually... - 13/12/2010 11:28:42 PM 1060 Views
Meh - 14/12/2010 04:22:45 AM 1170 Views
Well... - 14/12/2010 04:37:50 AM 1196 Views
Re: Well... - 14/12/2010 10:52:55 AM 1164 Views
Tell Darius that... - 14/12/2010 12:47:19 PM 1094 Views
of course Katerine is redundant! 2 women of Barasine and Katerine's strength - 18/12/2010 05:00:50 AM 1062 Views
Re: Amys is clearly stronger than half Egwene's strength... - 11/12/2010 07:31:25 AM 1299 Views
You forget... - 11/12/2010 08:02:03 PM 1220 Views
astounding "evidence" - 10/12/2010 09:58:47 PM 1214 Views
Re: astounding "evidence" - 11/12/2010 09:15:03 AM 1225 Views
thanks - 11/12/2010 03:54:54 PM 1361 Views
Re: thanks - 12/12/2010 12:49:52 PM 1067 Views
We're not in disagreement for the most part - 12/12/2010 04:23:02 PM 1049 Views
Re: We're not in disagreement for the most part - 12/12/2010 05:00:02 PM 1159 Views
I don't get the logic here... - 09/12/2010 09:41:18 PM 1210 Views
which was one of my first thoughts in reading the scene! *NM* - 09/12/2010 09:43:54 PM 853 Views
It doubles her strength. Nynaeve is only 50% stronger. So she only needs half of it to match Nynaeve - 09/12/2010 09:46:42 PM 1149 Views
And...? - 09/12/2010 09:51:57 PM 1152 Views
Personally, I thought it had something to do with not harming the babies. - 09/12/2010 10:01:10 PM 1070 Views
That was my interpretation too - 10/12/2010 04:36:38 AM 1123 Views
Re: That was my interpretation too - 10/12/2010 09:31:12 AM 1258 Views
what books are you reading? she's absolutely convinced until that scene - 10/12/2010 04:12:34 PM 1225 Views
The oaths proposal is after the jailhouse break in the timeline - 10/12/2010 04:31:12 PM 1105 Views
*Double post, please delete* *NM* - 10/12/2010 04:35:54 PM 691 Views
And... - 10/12/2010 04:32:28 PM 1112 Views
Re: what books are you reading? she's absolutely convinced until that scene - 10/12/2010 04:41:25 PM 1126 Views
Re: what books are you reading? she's absolutely convinced until that scene - 10/12/2010 05:02:10 PM 1140 Views
and as a poster above points out the scene is AFTER she's stabbed - 10/12/2010 05:07:17 PM 1171 Views
Yes, I did know that. - 11/12/2010 04:06:00 PM 1160 Views
meant that response to go to Sidious ... sorry! - 11/12/2010 08:44:40 PM 1213 Views
Oops. *NM* - 10/12/2010 07:15:57 PM 756 Views
Re: More evidence that Elayne is much weaker than the Forsaken - 10/12/2010 08:22:21 PM 1092 Views
Re: More evidence that Elayne is much weaker than the Forsaken - 10/12/2010 08:33:25 PM 1151 Views
We have very little to go on with the FS strengths... - 10/12/2010 09:04:33 PM 1239 Views
Re: More evidence that Elayne is much weaker than the Forsaken - 10/12/2010 09:31:13 PM 1226 Views
Re: More evidence that Elayne is much weaker than the Forsaken - 10/12/2010 10:50:20 PM 1200 Views
Re: More evidence that Elayne is much weaker than the Forsaken - 11/12/2010 07:29:30 AM 1357 Views
Help im new! - 13/12/2010 07:41:04 PM 1218 Views
Re: More evidence you haven't been paying attention. - 13/12/2010 09:56:45 PM 1325 Views
Re: More evidence you haven't been paying attention. - 13/12/2010 10:50:25 PM 1125 Views
How is it that this the longest thread on this board? Is it even relevant in the least? *NM* - 18/12/2010 02:53:22 PM 772 Views
Re: How is it that this the longest thread on this board? Is it even relevant in the least? - 18/12/2010 08:21:24 PM 1072 Views
Look at the topic. As if we needed evidence that Elayne is weaker than the Foresaken. - 19/12/2010 04:41:25 AM 1094 Views
you misread the topic - 19/12/2010 05:30:26 AM 1234 Views
But the debate is moronic because... - 19/12/2010 05:43:07 AM 1090 Views

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