Yes. But since you continue to not answer the main question, necessary.
fionwe1987 Send a noteboard - 13/12/2010 11:24:24 PM
No, it's pointing out that she was ready to fight 5 AS until she heard forkroot then immediately shifted thought processes to think up a new strategy based on what information she knew from Nynaeve... it sets the entire stage for the rest of the scene. Egwene is realizing that she has more than being physically beat up to over come when it comes to Channeling.
This is still completely irrelevant to her later PoV regarding Silviana. You might as well start talking about how to defeat the Dark One, if you want to continue discussing irrelevant points...
Because she and Elayne lived through it!
No they did not. They lived through a completely different experience where they were given doses of an unknown nature once every hour, which knocked them out completely, and made them unable to channel even after an hour. Egwene's dose knocked her out for a few minutes, and in an hour at the most, she was able to channel.
And it's what she used against Moghedien and it's part of the scene when Egwene calls Nynaeve out for lying to her ... Egwene would know as much about the affects of forkroot as Nynaeve herself.
And Nynaeve did not know much. It took several Borwns to study to drug to realize that you can make a tincture that can interfere with the ability to channel, but not knock you out!
Let's be honest, what is there to tell about forkroot other than what it does to a Channeler?
But it doesn't have the same effect all the time. You can say, "forkroot is an herb which knocks channelers out and makes them unable to channel". Which, evidently, is exactly what Nynaeve told Egwene. But, more than that, we didn't know till we heard of the research the Browns had done, which we only learned from Silviana.
Egwene thinks of Silviana's strength because she doesn't have any idea to what degree her own ability is currently affected.
But that would be a reason for her to not think of her strength! If you don't know how strong you are, why would you make any statements on how someone else compares to you? You need yourself as a point of reference for such a comparison, and in your version of the events, Egwene has no clue how strong or weak she may have been at that time!
She's not been able to embrace the Source,
You mean she hadn't tried...
in fact the AS don't know how much it will affect her either, thus the strong shields.
Bullshit! They knew how it would affect her since they used precise doses! In your version of events, Katerine wonders why two of them would be needed to shield Egwene because she knows Egwene will be weakened. You cannot now say she didn't know this and hence used a strong shield! Your whole scenario is full of holes.
She knows she'll be weaker,
You just said she:
doesn't have any idea to what degree her own ability is currently affected.
Are you even aware of what you're writing?
and given Silviana's strength she realizes there's no way she could break a shield at less than full ability.
Then she'd have said that! But she makes no mention of her own ability being weakened. You yourself claim she wasn't aware of that. That means that Egwene assumed that since the effect of forkroot, in so far as making her unable to reach the source, was lifted, that meant she could now draw to her fullest ability. So, we need to see her statement in the light of that.
We know Silviana must be close to Amys in strength from the various behaviors (ordering Katerine around etc) so Egwene has to realize that if she struggled to break a shield Amys held on her Siliviana under these circumstances would have no problems.
But that is not what she says! She says there is no hope for her to break Silviana's shield because Silviana is far from weak. Absolutely no qualifiers about forkroot or any weakening of her abilities. If you're allowed to now imagine up extra qualifiers for all statements made by characters, I'll do so too, and probably be able to prove that Rand is weaker than Morghase!
It's clear she believes she can actually reach the Source by this point, but it's equally clear from the countless instances of her later channeling that she'll be very weak for hours!
Neither the readers nor Egwene knew this at that point. In fact, till Silviana tells us that you can make doses of forkroot that allow you to only channel a trickle, no one knew that forkroot can be used to reduce the amount of OP one channels, instead of just blocking access to the source.
Go re-read LOC Figs and Mice.
I did.
It's obvious that a Channeler's ability slowly comes back.
No it isn't! Elayne struggles to <>reach for the source, but there is no mention of how much they can channel once they manage that.
Elayne and Nynaeve lay there and slowly got closer and closer to reaching the Source by the minute.
Yes. Reaching the source. You'll notice that there's nothing about reduced ability once they do reach the source.
It's a clear indication that the affects of the tea would slowly degenerate.
That slowly, you'd be able to reach the source is obvious. That the amount you can channel will also increase over time is not at all obvious.
That is your interpretation.
And yours, apparently. Again... are you sure you know what you're typing?
In Figs and Mice we see Elayne and Nynaeve go from barely being able to move to walking around and talking in fairly short order, but neither of then Channel a spark. It seems rather obvious that ALL the effects would take time to wear off.
Well, I hope you're not a scientist. Just because physical abilities recover in one way doesn't mean channeling abilities will recover in the same way. That that turns out to be true doesn't preclude any alternatives.
By your logic, when someone removes a shield, the channeler can only slowly be able to draw in to their maximum potential. But we all know that a shield works by an all or nothing mechanism, unless you make a special shield. Forkroot could have been exactly the same.
It amounts to the same thing.
I could almost win the Nobel Prize. But I did not win the Nobel Prize. Obviously, I won the Nobel Prize?
In the end Egwene would have battered down the Shield. Amys cannot hold Egwene for any length of time. Therefore neither could the weaker Silviana.
What rot! We have seen Aes Sedai do shielding like none other. Mylen shields three women, two of whom were pretty strong, by AS standards! If Mylen (who at best, is as strong as Silviana) can shield Joline, Teslyn and Edesina, Silviana can certainly shield Egwene!
That's pure speculation.
And your ideas are from a secret email RJ sent you?
Egwene has no way of knowing if Silviana is better at shielding than Amys
Of course she does! She's the only person who has compared the skills of Aes Sedai and Wise Ones.
and she knows for fact that she could break Amys shield.
She knows she can hammer at it and exhaust Amys.
Note that she also doesn't even try to attack the shield as her entire plan was always soem kind of surprise attack.
Because she says there is no way for her to break the shield, period.
Even if she thinks she may eventually break through Silviana she wouldn't be able to escape, so she doesn't try!
What? If she could break through, she'd have made mincemeat of Silviana and the other two and been on her merry way!
More evidence that Elayne is much weaker than the Forsaken
09/12/2010 03:45:27 PM
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Yes.
09/12/2010 04:39:58 PM
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No.
09/12/2010 05:34:57 PM
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Actually...exponential or at least non-linear makes alot of sense to me
09/12/2010 06:27:29 PM
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Nope. Then Rand would be able to crush 13 Aes Sedai with ease.
09/12/2010 06:32:53 PM
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Three things:
09/12/2010 06:47:30 PM
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That quote is incorrect as it contradicts all other evidence from later books...
09/12/2010 06:51:02 PM
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If strength isn't linear and on a steep enough curve that could work.
09/12/2010 07:22:24 PM
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I think that RJ's statement that the strongest man and strongest women were equal...
10/12/2010 03:23:12 PM
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I wasn't aware this was an issue?
09/12/2010 04:45:02 PM
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I just hope aMoL finally reveals who's going to be the Dragon Reborn...these lesser debates can hang *NM*
09/12/2010 05:26:37 PM
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not really
09/12/2010 04:46:42 PM
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and you'll note that none of the angreal are considered particularly strong
09/12/2010 04:48:14 PM
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She probably weaved them separately on account of being pregnant *NM*
09/12/2010 04:56:12 PM
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Pregnancy seems to be interfere with her ability to grasp the power
09/12/2010 05:06:15 PM
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I don't know if it's a more complex CHANNELING undertaking, though
09/12/2010 05:42:57 PM
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I don't have the book handy, but she talks about the level of complexity
09/12/2010 05:45:52 PM
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hmm, but we still don't know if it's the weaves or the process that is so complex
09/12/2010 06:28:14 PM
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Well according to Monaella it makes it harder to Channel, but from Elayne's POV
09/12/2010 06:52:55 PM
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We never really get a feel for their relative strengths
09/12/2010 05:51:38 PM
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Yes. In PoD Aviendha states that the woman-wrapped-in-hair angreal almost doubles her strength...
09/12/2010 06:30:41 PM
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you have the wrong angreal and the wrong strength
09/12/2010 07:07:18 PM
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Nope. You are the one whose got the wrong angreal...
09/12/2010 07:15:38 PM
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where is that quote my friend?
09/12/2010 08:07:50 PM
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PoD: The Breaking Storm
09/12/2010 08:16:58 PM
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Ah yes, ... "almost 2x as much" still doesn't support your assertion that Nyn is 50% above Elayne
09/12/2010 08:20:37 PM
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That's a gross skewing of what that sentence means...
09/12/2010 09:05:05 PM
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Don't be absurd...
09/12/2010 09:21:00 PM
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she does not say that! she says Moghedien could kill her before she could react. so could Daigian
09/12/2010 09:34:50 PM
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"The only Aes Sedai who could hope to match one of the Forsaken was in Ebou Dar..."
09/12/2010 09:44:25 PM
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And yet...
09/12/2010 09:48:34 PM
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No, Egwene does NOT think she can defeat Mesaana in a One Power battle...
09/12/2010 09:59:35 PM
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Here are te quotes...
09/12/2010 10:10:09 PM
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Did you not read the quote above, made by Egwene in the heat of battle with Mesaana?
09/12/2010 10:34:05 PM
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It might interest you to know that that was Katerine!
10/12/2010 12:15:51 AM
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Oh nonsense
10/12/2010 04:43:44 AM
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But that's his point.
10/12/2010 06:01:59 AM
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its a useless point
10/12/2010 10:11:00 AM
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I'm so glad you're a mod! Setting great standards there...
10/12/2010 04:11:56 PM
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Yes, utterly useless...
10/12/2010 11:46:15 AM
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Dude, you need to re-read the books...
10/12/2010 04:15:11 PM
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he means Sheriam, but your points still hold true
10/12/2010 08:19:16 PM
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Re: he means Sheriam, but your points still hold true
11/12/2010 07:21:49 AM
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potentially, but Mesaana later turns up with BA using the 19 stolen ter'angreal.
11/12/2010 03:41:41 PM
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Re:
I'm so glad you're a mod! Setting great standards there...
10/12/2010 04:35:23 PM
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Duh! Seriously, are you Elaida or something? Your logic is astounding.
10/12/2010 06:47:17 AM
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Duh! Seriously, are you Elaida or something? Your logic is astounding.
10/12/2010 06:47:18 AM
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which only tells us that Nynaeve is equal to the Forsaken. Has nothing to do with Egwene being
10/12/2010 01:51:12 PM
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Nynaeve has been channeling (albeit blocked) for close to 10 years
10/12/2010 02:24:57 PM
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Re: Yes.
09/12/2010 07:49:12 PM
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You're obviously a latecomer to this ongoing debate. Here's a recap...
09/12/2010 08:03:51 PM
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where this falls apart is that Daigian at a 10 is too weak
09/12/2010 08:16:17 PM
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Nope...
09/12/2010 08:44:51 PM
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now you are just force fitting quotes into what you want to say
09/12/2010 09:29:20 PM
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Nope...
09/12/2010 09:42:58 PM
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all of the girls were Forced! Nynaeve was already at least as strong as Moiraine in EoTW
11/12/2010 08:04:02 PM
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Re: all of the girls were Forced! Nynaeve was already at least as strong as Moiraine in EoTW
11/12/2010 11:59:55 PM
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I don't think Elayne was forced
12/12/2010 04:33:26 PM
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I believe there is a quote from RJ that states they all were, but Egwene was held damane
12/12/2010 04:43:29 PM
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Re: I believe there is a quote from RJ that states they all were, but Egwene was held damane
12/12/2010 04:46:50 PM
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Thanks for the quote
12/12/2010 07:17:30 PM
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perhaps the opportunity hasn't arisen? And of course it's politic to appologize to the Amyrlin
12/12/2010 07:41:11 PM
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Re: all of the girls were Forced! Nynaeve was already at least as strong as Moiraine in EoTW
12/12/2010 08:04:21 PM
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that's where I'm estimating Nynaeve being close to Siuan and Moiraine in EoTW
12/12/2010 08:30:54 PM
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Re: now you are just force fitting quotes into what you want to say
10/12/2010 01:17:10 AM
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Mesaana
10/12/2010 04:43:07 AM
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agreed
10/12/2010 01:48:59 PM
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Re: agreed
10/12/2010 04:38:28 PM
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very true, and I find it interesting that during the TAR battle Mesaana didn't bother
10/12/2010 05:03:43 PM
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Re: very true, and I find it interesting that during the TAR battle Mesaana didn't bother
11/12/2010 07:22:54 AM
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Re: You're obviously a latecomer to this ongoing debate. Here's a recap...
10/12/2010 09:19:17 AM
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OK. Here's the clear evidence of Dagian's, Moiraine's, Egwenes and Moghedien's comparative levels.
10/12/2010 12:00:48 PM
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"clear evidence"
10/12/2010 01:27:01 PM
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Laughable interpretation...
10/12/2010 01:31:57 PM
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Amys is clearly stronger than half Egwene's strength...
10/12/2010 04:27:30 PM
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couple of thoughts here
10/12/2010 08:01:44 PM
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Re: couple of thoughts here
10/12/2010 11:27:19 PM
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that's what I said! EDIT
11/12/2010 04:03:59 PM
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Well...
11/12/2010 07:58:38 PM
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Katerine is a pain in the ass and Silviana wasn't about to risk only one woman holding that shield
11/12/2010 08:26:29 PM
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Leane was shielded by two sisters as well
11/12/2010 11:14:08 PM
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I think that's almost certainly a custom for women held in the open cells
11/12/2010 11:22:12 PM
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Re: I think that's almost certainly a custom for women held in the open cells
12/12/2010 12:04:33 AM
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Oh... so we dismiss all quotes from people we don't like?
12/12/2010 05:18:42 AM
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re-read the section my friend. EDIT
12/12/2010 03:58:28 PM
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Dude...
12/12/2010 06:29:43 PM
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did you read the quote? They discuss how much they gave her on the way to the Tower!
12/12/2010 07:39:55 PM
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Not one of those things answers my rather simple question...
13/12/2010 02:27:44 AM
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because it's the first time Egwene has been dosed with Forkroot
13/12/2010 03:55:18 AM
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She knows but she doesn't know?
13/12/2010 05:35:55 AM
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She knows that Nynaeve had told her it dampened her ability
13/12/2010 05:13:23 PM
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And she doesn't know any details...
13/12/2010 07:19:12 PM
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this conversation is so pointless
13/12/2010 10:43:35 PM
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Yes. But since you continue to not answer the main question, necessary.
13/12/2010 11:24:24 PM
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Re: Yes. But since you continue to not answer the main question, necessary.
14/12/2010 11:06:55 AM
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Of course its obvious now!
14/12/2010 12:44:59 PM
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it was always obvious that to me. The first thing Egwene thinks is about what the drug does to her
18/12/2010 05:07:38 AM
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Shielding
13/12/2010 08:01:19 PM
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Practice. We do know that AS practice their weaves far more than WO
13/12/2010 10:50:09 PM
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Re: Practice. We do know that AS practice their weaves far more than WO
14/12/2010 04:25:20 AM
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There is, actually...
13/12/2010 11:28:42 PM
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Meh
14/12/2010 04:22:45 AM
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Well...
14/12/2010 04:37:50 AM
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Re: Well...
14/12/2010 10:52:55 AM
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of course Katerine is redundant! 2 women of Barasine and Katerine's strength
18/12/2010 05:00:50 AM
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Re: Amys is clearly stronger than half Egwene's strength...
11/12/2010 07:31:25 AM
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um, Elayne was in the process of bleeding to death and then had just been Healed
11/12/2010 03:50:27 PM
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astounding "evidence"
10/12/2010 09:58:47 PM
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Re: astounding "evidence"
11/12/2010 09:15:03 AM
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thanks
11/12/2010 03:54:54 PM
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Re: thanks
12/12/2010 12:49:52 PM
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We're not in disagreement for the most part
12/12/2010 04:23:02 PM
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Re: We're not in disagreement for the most part
12/12/2010 05:00:02 PM
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Actually in the AoL all AS who went over (50%) were refered to as Forsaken
12/12/2010 05:13:46 PM
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Re: Actually in the AoL all AS who went over (50%) were refered to as Forsaken
12/12/2010 06:35:02 PM
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All of the AS who went over to the DO refered to themselves as the Chosen
12/12/2010 07:50:59 PM
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Re: All of the AS who went over to the DO refered to themselves as the Chosen
12/12/2010 11:05:58 PM
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Re: All of the AS who went over to the DO refered to themselves as the Chosen
12/12/2010 11:11:29 PM
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Re: All of the AS who went over to the DO refered to themselves as the Chosen
12/12/2010 11:14:47 PM
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I don't get the logic here...
09/12/2010 09:41:18 PM
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It doubles her strength. Nynaeve is only 50% stronger. So she only needs half of it to match Nynaeve
09/12/2010 09:46:42 PM
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And...?
09/12/2010 09:51:57 PM
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Personally, I thought it had something to do with not harming the babies.
09/12/2010 10:01:10 PM
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That was my interpretation too
10/12/2010 04:36:38 AM
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what books are you reading? she's absolutely convinced until that scene
10/12/2010 04:12:34 PM
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The oaths proposal is after the jailhouse break in the timeline
10/12/2010 04:31:12 PM
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You are correct! So clearly worry about the babies was not a reason to not draw more
10/12/2010 05:05:30 PM
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Re: what books are you reading? she's absolutely convinced until that scene
10/12/2010 04:41:25 PM
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Re: what books are you reading? she's absolutely convinced until that scene
10/12/2010 05:02:10 PM
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and as a poster above points out the scene is AFTER she's stabbed
10/12/2010 05:07:17 PM
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Re: More evidence that Elayne is much weaker than the Forsaken
10/12/2010 08:22:21 PM
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Re: More evidence that Elayne is much weaker than the Forsaken
10/12/2010 08:33:25 PM
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Re: More evidence that Elayne is much weaker than the Forsaken
10/12/2010 09:12:12 PM
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they can actually sense both which is how Elayne knows Nynaeve is not at full potential
10/12/2010 09:22:35 PM
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Re: More evidence that Elayne is much weaker than the Forsaken
10/12/2010 09:31:13 PM
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Please note that Nynaeve has commented every time she's been around
10/12/2010 10:08:16 PM
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Re: Please note that Nynaeve has commented every time she's been around
10/12/2010 10:50:32 PM
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It's more than just fear of Moridin that makes her choose an attack from such a distance
10/12/2010 11:10:57 PM
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How is it that this the longest thread on this board? Is it even relevant in the least? *NM*
18/12/2010 02:53:22 PM
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Re: How is it that this the longest thread on this board? Is it even relevant in the least?
18/12/2010 08:21:24 PM
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Look at the topic. As if we needed evidence that Elayne is weaker than the Foresaken.
19/12/2010 04:41:25 AM
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