Oh... so we dismiss all quotes from people we don't like?
fionwe1987 Send a noteboard - 12/12/2010 05:18:42 AM
Silviana is covering all of her bases ...
Exactly. She's taking extra precautions. These aren't necessary.
she certainly doesn't want to run the risk of Egwene waking up in the middle of the night, breaking a too weak shield and vanishing via gateway ... thus the "this child is tricky" comment. Let's face it any Sister could hold a shield on a sleeping woman.
And keep the woman sleeping? The point you are ignoring is that Silviana, Katerine, Barasine (by their reactions) and Egwene (by her PoV) make it clear that Barasine alone can hold Egwene's shield, even when the Forkroot is gone.
Katerine was just bitching that she's stuck with the task. It's in her nature to hate being forced to do tasks like this! Note how Silviana treats Katerine in this moment ... like a petulant child! Her response is "Because I said so" something you say to a bratty kid!
Okay... so? Egwene doesn't seem surprised at all by Katarine's comment. She never thinks, "Oh great! That means I can escape". Instead, she notes that Barasine seem displeased by Katerine's comment, since it implied that the weaker sister, Barasine, would be asked to hold the shield. Even then, Egwene doesn't comment on the sheer impossibility of that. To me that indicates that Barasine can shield Egwene.
And Egwene still had so much Forkroot in her she was only barely able to Channel at all... not to mention she was exhausted from being captured!
And this is the state in which she was confident she could surprise five Aes Sedai and escape?

What is she, Lanfear?
KOD
Prologe
Apparently she did not. Katerine flushed, but she said no more. The glow of saidar surrounded Silviana, and she took over the shield smoothly, without giving any opening when Egwene might have embraced the Power herself. She was certain that she could, now. Except that Silviana was far from weak; there was no hope she could break the woman’s shield. The gag of Air disappeared at the same time, and she contented herself with digging a handkerchief from her belt pouch and calmly wiping her chin.
First note that Egwene is only now able to even embrace the source and we know from history that Forkroot dampens your strength for hours (as we see all through the rest of the book Egwene can channel only a trickle).
Prologe
Apparently she did not. Katerine flushed, but she said no more. The glow of saidar surrounded Silviana, and she took over the shield smoothly, without giving any opening when Egwene might have embraced the Power herself. She was certain that she could, now. Except that Silviana was far from weak; there was no hope she could break the woman’s shield. The gag of Air disappeared at the same time, and she contented herself with digging a handkerchief from her belt pouch and calmly wiping her chin.
First note that Egwene is only now able to even embrace the source and we know from history that Forkroot dampens your strength for hours (as we see all through the rest of the book Egwene can channel only a trickle).
It dampens your strength for hours if you take a strong dose. The dose Egwene was given knocked her out for a few minutes, and a couple of minutes later, in the carriage, Egwene was confident of being able to defeat five Aes Sedai.
If, as you contend, Silviana could only hold the shield due to the forkroot, why didn't Egwene say that? Why say, "Except Silviana was far from weak; there was no hope that she could break the woman's shield"? If the Forkroot was the only reason Silviana could hold the shield, Egwene would have thought so.
This quote gives absolutely no indication that Barasine alone is capable of holding a shield on Egwene for long!
Well, of course it doesn't! But this quote does:
“Why both of us?” Katerine wanted to know, which earned her a wry glance from Barasine. If only one were sent, it surely would not
be Katerine, who stood higher.
Egwene doesn't even indicate any surprise at this move. If Barasine couldn't shield Egwene on her own, wouldn't Egwene have thought of that, and wouldn't Silviana have mentioned that as one of her reasons?
Then let's take this into consideration:
TGS
News in TAR
The two glanced at her with annoyance. "The shield," Barasine said. "We've been instructed to always have at least two to maintain it."
"Oh, for the. . . ." Egwene took a deep breath. "If I vow not to embrace the Power until I am properly back in the custody of another Red sister, will that be enough for you?"
The two regarded her with suspicion.
"I suspected as much," Egwene said. She turned to a group of novices who were standing in a side corridor, pretending to scrub the tiles on the side wall while they gawked at Egwene.
"You," Egwene said, pointing to one of them. "Marsial, isn't it?"
"Yes, Mother," the girl squeaked.
"Go and fetch us some forkroot tea. Katerine should have some at the study of the Mistress of Novices. It's not far. Tell her that Barasine requested it for use on me; bring it to my quarters."
The novice scrambled off to do as asked.
"I'll dose myself with that, and then at least one of you can go," Egwene said. "Your Ajah is collapsing. They're going to need all of the clear minds they can get; maybe you can convince your sisters that it is unwise to let Elaida execute Silviana."
The two Reds glanced at each other uncertainly. Then the spindly one whose name Egwene didn't know cursed softly and hurried away with a flurry of rustling skirts. Barasine called after her, but the woman didn't return.
Barasine glanced at Egwene, muttered something under her breath, but remained in place. "We're waiting for that forkroot," she said, staring Egwene in the eyes. "Keep moving on to your quarters."
Always instructed to have at least 2 maintaining the shield (implying that if weaker Sisters were holding it there may be need for more),
TGS
News in TAR
The two glanced at her with annoyance. "The shield," Barasine said. "We've been instructed to always have at least two to maintain it."
"Oh, for the. . . ." Egwene took a deep breath. "If I vow not to embrace the Power until I am properly back in the custody of another Red sister, will that be enough for you?"
The two regarded her with suspicion.
"I suspected as much," Egwene said. She turned to a group of novices who were standing in a side corridor, pretending to scrub the tiles on the side wall while they gawked at Egwene.
"You," Egwene said, pointing to one of them. "Marsial, isn't it?"
"Yes, Mother," the girl squeaked.
"Go and fetch us some forkroot tea. Katerine should have some at the study of the Mistress of Novices. It's not far. Tell her that Barasine requested it for use on me; bring it to my quarters."
The novice scrambled off to do as asked.
"I'll dose myself with that, and then at least one of you can go," Egwene said. "Your Ajah is collapsing. They're going to need all of the clear minds they can get; maybe you can convince your sisters that it is unwise to let Elaida execute Silviana."
The two Reds glanced at each other uncertainly. Then the spindly one whose name Egwene didn't know cursed softly and hurried away with a flurry of rustling skirts. Barasine called after her, but the woman didn't return.
Barasine glanced at Egwene, muttered something under her breath, but remained in place. "We're waiting for that forkroot," she said, staring Egwene in the eyes. "Keep moving on to your quarters."
Always instructed to have at least 2 maintaining the shield (implying that if weaker Sisters were holding it there may be need for more),
Implying the opposite, actually. It means that one is enough, but they want more around Egwene.
Barasine muttering under her breath and calling for the other Red to return ... and there is no evidence that the other one even left the link ... no reason to assume Barasine wasn't in control of a link and the other woman's strength was still there.
You contradict yourself. If the other were still in the link, Barasine doesn't have to call her back, does she?
Also, do note that Daigian, Elza and Erian are apparently enough to hold Semirhage.
There were several others in the hallway with her—Daigian, Erian, Elza—whose turn it was to maintain Semirhage's shield. Aside from Cadsuane, each Aes Sedai in the camp took turns. It was too dangerous to risk forcing the duty only on the Aes Sedai of lesser stature, lest they grow weary. The shield had to remain strong. Light only knew what would happen if Semirhage got free.
Since Daigian is extremely weak, and Elza is too weak to Travel, this means that the weakest AS, a somewhat weak AS, and a middling AS can hold Semirhage herself. And from Cadsuane's statement, even these three are an extra precaution. This clearly implies that even women weaker than Barasine can hold the shield on Egwene.
More evidence that Elayne is much weaker than the Forsaken
09/12/2010 03:45:27 PM
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Yes.
09/12/2010 04:39:58 PM
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No.
09/12/2010 05:34:57 PM
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Actually...exponential or at least non-linear makes alot of sense to me
09/12/2010 06:27:29 PM
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Nope. Then Rand would be able to crush 13 Aes Sedai with ease.
09/12/2010 06:32:53 PM
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Three things:
09/12/2010 06:47:30 PM
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That quote is incorrect as it contradicts all other evidence from later books...
09/12/2010 06:51:02 PM
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If strength isn't linear and on a steep enough curve that could work.
09/12/2010 07:22:24 PM
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I think that RJ's statement that the strongest man and strongest women were equal...
10/12/2010 03:23:12 PM
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I wasn't aware this was an issue?
09/12/2010 04:45:02 PM
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I just hope aMoL finally reveals who's going to be the Dragon Reborn...these lesser debates can hang *NM*
09/12/2010 05:26:37 PM
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not really
09/12/2010 04:46:42 PM
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and you'll note that none of the angreal are considered particularly strong
09/12/2010 04:48:14 PM
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She probably weaved them separately on account of being pregnant *NM*
09/12/2010 04:56:12 PM
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Pregnancy seems to be interfere with her ability to grasp the power
09/12/2010 05:06:15 PM
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I don't know if it's a more complex CHANNELING undertaking, though
09/12/2010 05:42:57 PM
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I don't have the book handy, but she talks about the level of complexity
09/12/2010 05:45:52 PM
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hmm, but we still don't know if it's the weaves or the process that is so complex
09/12/2010 06:28:14 PM
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Well according to Monaella it makes it harder to Channel, but from Elayne's POV
09/12/2010 06:52:55 PM
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We never really get a feel for their relative strengths
09/12/2010 05:51:38 PM
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Yes. In PoD Aviendha states that the woman-wrapped-in-hair angreal almost doubles her strength...
09/12/2010 06:30:41 PM
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you have the wrong angreal and the wrong strength
09/12/2010 07:07:18 PM
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Nope. You are the one whose got the wrong angreal...
09/12/2010 07:15:38 PM
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where is that quote my friend?
09/12/2010 08:07:50 PM
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PoD: The Breaking Storm
09/12/2010 08:16:58 PM
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Ah yes, ... "almost 2x as much" still doesn't support your assertion that Nyn is 50% above Elayne
09/12/2010 08:20:37 PM
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That's a gross skewing of what that sentence means...
09/12/2010 09:05:05 PM
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Don't be absurd...
09/12/2010 09:21:00 PM
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she does not say that! she says Moghedien could kill her before she could react. so could Daigian
09/12/2010 09:34:50 PM
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"The only Aes Sedai who could hope to match one of the Forsaken was in Ebou Dar..."
09/12/2010 09:44:25 PM
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And yet...
09/12/2010 09:48:34 PM
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No, Egwene does NOT think she can defeat Mesaana in a One Power battle...
09/12/2010 09:59:35 PM
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Here are te quotes...
09/12/2010 10:10:09 PM
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Did you not read the quote above, made by Egwene in the heat of battle with Mesaana?
09/12/2010 10:34:05 PM
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It might interest you to know that that was Katerine!
10/12/2010 12:15:51 AM
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Oh nonsense
10/12/2010 04:43:44 AM
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But that's his point.
10/12/2010 06:01:59 AM
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its a useless point
10/12/2010 10:11:00 AM
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I'm so glad you're a mod! Setting great standards there...
10/12/2010 04:11:56 PM
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Yes, utterly useless...
10/12/2010 11:46:15 AM
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Dude, you need to re-read the books...
10/12/2010 04:15:11 PM
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he means Sheriam, but your points still hold true
10/12/2010 08:19:16 PM
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Re: he means Sheriam, but your points still hold true
11/12/2010 07:21:49 AM
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potentially, but Mesaana later turns up with BA using the 19 stolen ter'angreal.
11/12/2010 03:41:41 PM
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Re:
I'm so glad you're a mod! Setting great standards there...
10/12/2010 04:35:23 PM
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Duh! Seriously, are you Elaida or something? Your logic is astounding.
10/12/2010 06:47:17 AM
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Duh! Seriously, are you Elaida or something? Your logic is astounding.
10/12/2010 06:47:18 AM
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which only tells us that Nynaeve is equal to the Forsaken. Has nothing to do with Egwene being
10/12/2010 01:51:12 PM
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Nynaeve has been channeling (albeit blocked) for close to 10 years
10/12/2010 02:24:57 PM
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Re: Yes.
09/12/2010 07:49:12 PM
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You're obviously a latecomer to this ongoing debate. Here's a recap...
09/12/2010 08:03:51 PM
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where this falls apart is that Daigian at a 10 is too weak
09/12/2010 08:16:17 PM
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Nope...
09/12/2010 08:44:51 PM
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now you are just force fitting quotes into what you want to say
09/12/2010 09:29:20 PM
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Nope...
09/12/2010 09:42:58 PM
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all of the girls were Forced! Nynaeve was already at least as strong as Moiraine in EoTW
11/12/2010 08:04:02 PM
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Re: all of the girls were Forced! Nynaeve was already at least as strong as Moiraine in EoTW
11/12/2010 11:59:55 PM
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I don't think Elayne was forced
12/12/2010 04:33:26 PM
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I believe there is a quote from RJ that states they all were, but Egwene was held damane
12/12/2010 04:43:29 PM
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Re: I believe there is a quote from RJ that states they all were, but Egwene was held damane
12/12/2010 04:46:50 PM
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Thanks for the quote
12/12/2010 07:17:30 PM
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perhaps the opportunity hasn't arisen? And of course it's politic to appologize to the Amyrlin
12/12/2010 07:41:11 PM
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Re: all of the girls were Forced! Nynaeve was already at least as strong as Moiraine in EoTW
12/12/2010 08:04:21 PM
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that's where I'm estimating Nynaeve being close to Siuan and Moiraine in EoTW
12/12/2010 08:30:54 PM
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Re: now you are just force fitting quotes into what you want to say
10/12/2010 01:17:10 AM
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Mesaana
10/12/2010 04:43:07 AM
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agreed
10/12/2010 01:48:59 PM
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Re: agreed
10/12/2010 04:38:28 PM
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very true, and I find it interesting that during the TAR battle Mesaana didn't bother
10/12/2010 05:03:43 PM
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Re: very true, and I find it interesting that during the TAR battle Mesaana didn't bother
11/12/2010 07:22:54 AM
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Re: You're obviously a latecomer to this ongoing debate. Here's a recap...
10/12/2010 09:19:17 AM
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OK. Here's the clear evidence of Dagian's, Moiraine's, Egwenes and Moghedien's comparative levels.
10/12/2010 12:00:48 PM
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"clear evidence"
10/12/2010 01:27:01 PM
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Laughable interpretation...
10/12/2010 01:31:57 PM
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Amys is clearly stronger than half Egwene's strength...
10/12/2010 04:27:30 PM
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couple of thoughts here
10/12/2010 08:01:44 PM
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Re: couple of thoughts here
10/12/2010 11:27:19 PM
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that's what I said! EDIT
11/12/2010 04:03:59 PM
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Well...
11/12/2010 07:58:38 PM
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Katerine is a pain in the ass and Silviana wasn't about to risk only one woman holding that shield
11/12/2010 08:26:29 PM
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Leane was shielded by two sisters as well
11/12/2010 11:14:08 PM
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I think that's almost certainly a custom for women held in the open cells
11/12/2010 11:22:12 PM
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Re: I think that's almost certainly a custom for women held in the open cells
12/12/2010 12:04:33 AM
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Oh... so we dismiss all quotes from people we don't like?
12/12/2010 05:18:42 AM
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re-read the section my friend. EDIT
12/12/2010 03:58:28 PM
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Dude...
12/12/2010 06:29:43 PM
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did you read the quote? They discuss how much they gave her on the way to the Tower!
12/12/2010 07:39:55 PM
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Not one of those things answers my rather simple question...
13/12/2010 02:27:44 AM
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because it's the first time Egwene has been dosed with Forkroot
13/12/2010 03:55:18 AM
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She knows but she doesn't know?
13/12/2010 05:35:55 AM
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She knows that Nynaeve had told her it dampened her ability
13/12/2010 05:13:23 PM
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And she doesn't know any details...
13/12/2010 07:19:12 PM
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this conversation is so pointless
13/12/2010 10:43:35 PM
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Yes. But since you continue to not answer the main question, necessary.
13/12/2010 11:24:24 PM
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Re: Yes. But since you continue to not answer the main question, necessary.
14/12/2010 11:06:55 AM
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Of course its obvious now!
14/12/2010 12:44:59 PM
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it was always obvious that to me. The first thing Egwene thinks is about what the drug does to her
18/12/2010 05:07:38 AM
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Shielding
13/12/2010 08:01:19 PM
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Practice. We do know that AS practice their weaves far more than WO
13/12/2010 10:50:09 PM
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Re: Practice. We do know that AS practice their weaves far more than WO
14/12/2010 04:25:20 AM
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There is, actually...
13/12/2010 11:28:42 PM
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Meh
14/12/2010 04:22:45 AM
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Well...
14/12/2010 04:37:50 AM
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Re: Well...
14/12/2010 10:52:55 AM
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of course Katerine is redundant! 2 women of Barasine and Katerine's strength
18/12/2010 05:00:50 AM
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Re: Amys is clearly stronger than half Egwene's strength...
11/12/2010 07:31:25 AM
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um, Elayne was in the process of bleeding to death and then had just been Healed
11/12/2010 03:50:27 PM
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astounding "evidence"
10/12/2010 09:58:47 PM
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Re: astounding "evidence"
11/12/2010 09:15:03 AM
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thanks
11/12/2010 03:54:54 PM
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Re: thanks
12/12/2010 12:49:52 PM
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We're not in disagreement for the most part
12/12/2010 04:23:02 PM
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Re: We're not in disagreement for the most part
12/12/2010 05:00:02 PM
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Actually in the AoL all AS who went over (50%) were refered to as Forsaken
12/12/2010 05:13:46 PM
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Re: Actually in the AoL all AS who went over (50%) were refered to as Forsaken
12/12/2010 06:35:02 PM
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All of the AS who went over to the DO refered to themselves as the Chosen
12/12/2010 07:50:59 PM
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Re: All of the AS who went over to the DO refered to themselves as the Chosen
12/12/2010 11:05:58 PM
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Re: All of the AS who went over to the DO refered to themselves as the Chosen
12/12/2010 11:11:29 PM
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Re: All of the AS who went over to the DO refered to themselves as the Chosen
12/12/2010 11:14:47 PM
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I don't get the logic here...
09/12/2010 09:41:18 PM
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It doubles her strength. Nynaeve is only 50% stronger. So she only needs half of it to match Nynaeve
09/12/2010 09:46:42 PM
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And...?
09/12/2010 09:51:57 PM
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Personally, I thought it had something to do with not harming the babies.
09/12/2010 10:01:10 PM
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That was my interpretation too
10/12/2010 04:36:38 AM
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what books are you reading? she's absolutely convinced until that scene
10/12/2010 04:12:34 PM
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The oaths proposal is after the jailhouse break in the timeline
10/12/2010 04:31:12 PM
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You are correct! So clearly worry about the babies was not a reason to not draw more
10/12/2010 05:05:30 PM
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Re: what books are you reading? she's absolutely convinced until that scene
10/12/2010 04:41:25 PM
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Re: what books are you reading? she's absolutely convinced until that scene
10/12/2010 05:02:10 PM
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and as a poster above points out the scene is AFTER she's stabbed
10/12/2010 05:07:17 PM
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Re: More evidence that Elayne is much weaker than the Forsaken
10/12/2010 08:22:21 PM
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Re: More evidence that Elayne is much weaker than the Forsaken
10/12/2010 08:33:25 PM
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Re: More evidence that Elayne is much weaker than the Forsaken
10/12/2010 09:12:12 PM
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they can actually sense both which is how Elayne knows Nynaeve is not at full potential
10/12/2010 09:22:35 PM
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Re: More evidence that Elayne is much weaker than the Forsaken
10/12/2010 09:31:13 PM
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Please note that Nynaeve has commented every time she's been around
10/12/2010 10:08:16 PM
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Re: Please note that Nynaeve has commented every time she's been around
10/12/2010 10:50:32 PM
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It's more than just fear of Moridin that makes her choose an attack from such a distance
10/12/2010 11:10:57 PM
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How is it that this the longest thread on this board? Is it even relevant in the least? *NM*
18/12/2010 02:53:22 PM
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Re: How is it that this the longest thread on this board? Is it even relevant in the least?
18/12/2010 08:21:24 PM
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Look at the topic. As if we needed evidence that Elayne is weaker than the Foresaken.
19/12/2010 04:41:25 AM
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