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PoD: The Breaking Storm Shannow Send a noteboard - 09/12/2010 08:16:58 PM

Wow, is this a broken CD or what?

It is important to note that when Elayne decided to pose as one of the Forsaken she took her woman-wrapped-in-hair angreal and drew on as much of the Power as she deemed safe.

This is important evidence showing that Elayne considers the distance between herself and the Forsaken to be considerable (in raw strength at least). With her disguise she didn't think she could impersonate a Forsaken unless was filled with a lot of saidar. People might say that we all know that she's not Forsaken strength, but the important evidence is that she drew on as much saidar as she could. This, to me, says that she considers Forsaken strength to be much higher than her own.

Elayne knows how strong Moghedien is. I'm not saying that's what she aimed for. But I do think she aimed for Nynaeve level, and this hints once again that the difference between Elayne/Egwene/Aviendha and Nynaeve/Forsaken is considerable.


Thanks to Aviendha, we have a VERY good indication of the strength of this angreal. Aviendha is basically equal to Elayne in strength. In any case, the fact that the angreal almost doubles her strength is established. That means it would do the same for Elayne.

Since Elayne maxed out the angreal - according to her own description - it would seem that Elayne was close to double her normal strength when she disguised herself as one of the Forsaken.

Since it fits VERY well with the evidence that Lanfear is approximately double Elayne and Aviendha's strength, the angreal would put her somewhere between Nynaeve and Lanfear's strength level. Probably equal to Cyndane, most likely.

Lanfear = 100
Cyndane = 90
Graendal = 85
Nynaeve, Semirhage = 80
Moghedien = 65
Elayne = 50

That's pretty much what the evidence tells us. This scene merely confirms it.


The quote is as follows (emphasis mine):

The Path of Daggers
Unweaveing

Stripping away the decayed cloth revealed a small amber brooch in the shape of a turtle. It looked like amber, anyway, and it might been amber once, but when she opened herself to the Source through it, saidar rushed into her, a torrent compared to what she could draw safely on her own. Not a strong angreal, but far better than nothing. With it, she could handle twice as much of the Power as Nynaeve,

the turtle, which is stronger than the woman, makes Elayne twice as strong as Nynaeve! And we're talking raw strength with these comparisons so your numbers are completely out of whack. it's more like this IMO

Lanfear = 100
Cyndane/Alivia = 98
Graendal/Sharina = 96
Nynaeve, Semirhage = 94
Mesaana = 92
Moghedien = 90
Elayne = 75

Which squares with a Egwene saying should could face and defeat Mesaana, Elayne using a minor angreal to less than it's full potential and being able to appear as strong as a Forsaken and the turtle making Elayne 2.5x her natural strength and still being considered weak.

It also allows for the AS like Daigian to be 1/3 Siuan and Elayne to be almost 2x Siuan ... if Siuan is a 40, that makes Daigian around a 13-15 and makes Elayne/Egwene just shy of 2x her strength ... which we know is true from the Amys + Melaine not as strong as Egwene quote.


There are three angreal that the wondergirls use.

The woman-wrapped-in-hair angreal allows Avienha to almost double her strength. THAT's the one Elayne used in ToM.

I'm well aware that the turtle allows Elayne to channel twice as much as Nynaeve, which I've already quoted in my response to Myrdhyn above.

It fits perfectly.

The woman-wrapped-in-hair almost doubles Aviendha's strength. It is the one that would make Elayne approximately equal to Cyndane in strength.

The turtle probably triples it, meaning that if Nynaeve is half again as strong as Elayne/Aviendha/Egwene - which is where I put her - then tripling Elayne's strength would make her twice as strong as Nynaeve.

The bracelet with finger chains probably quadruples strength, or even more. That's the one Alivia used at the Cleansing.

I'm afraid you're using the wrong angreal to try and disprove this point.


Elayne gives the woman-wrapped-in-hair angreal to Aviendha, when they are about to use the Bowl of Winds.

"Aviendha, you know how it feels when you hold as much of saidar as you can? Think of holding almost twice as much. Really think of it. I want you to use it, please."
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More evidence that Elayne is much weaker than the Forsaken Sidious - 09/12/2010 03:45:27 PM 3226 Views
Yes. Cannoli - 09/12/2010 04:39:58 PM 1541 Views
No. moratcorlm - 09/12/2010 05:34:57 PM 1394 Views
Indeed! *NM* darius_sedai - 09/12/2010 05:39:47 PM 754 Views
Actually...exponential or at least non-linear makes alot of sense to me Myrdhyn - 09/12/2010 06:27:29 PM 1304 Views
Nope. Then Rand would be able to crush 13 Aes Sedai with ease. Shannow - 09/12/2010 06:32:53 PM 1536 Views
Three things: Myrdhyn - 09/12/2010 06:47:30 PM 1332 Views
That quote is incorrect as it contradicts all other evidence from later books... Shannow - 09/12/2010 06:51:02 PM 1300 Views
If strength isn't linear and on a steep enough curve that could work. Myrdhyn - 09/12/2010 07:22:24 PM 1341 Views
I think that RJ's statement that the strongest man and strongest women were equal... RugbyPlayingAshaman - 10/12/2010 03:23:12 PM 1233 Views
I wasn't aware this was an issue? LadyLorraine - 09/12/2010 04:45:02 PM 1350 Views
I just hope aMoL finally reveals who's going to be the Dragon Reborn...these lesser debates can hang *NM* Cannoli - 09/12/2010 05:26:37 PM 829 Views
*Spoiler* TGS and TOM revealed that Egwene is the DR. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 10/12/2010 07:57:53 PM 1098 Views
Agreed. Joel - 20/12/2010 01:17:32 AM 1408 Views
not really darius_sedai - 09/12/2010 04:46:42 PM 1328 Views
and you'll note that none of the angreal are considered particularly strong darius_sedai - 09/12/2010 04:48:14 PM 1264 Views
She probably weaved them separately on account of being pregnant *NM* Kieran - 09/12/2010 04:56:12 PM 808 Views
Pregnancy seems to be interfere with her ability to grasp the power darius_sedai - 09/12/2010 05:06:15 PM 1299 Views
I don't know if it's a more complex CHANNELING undertaking, though LadyLorraine - 09/12/2010 05:42:57 PM 1217 Views
I don't have the book handy, but she talks about the level of complexity darius_sedai - 09/12/2010 05:45:52 PM 1325 Views
hmm, but we still don't know if it's the weaves or the process that is so complex LadyLorraine - 09/12/2010 06:28:14 PM 1130 Views
Well according to Monaella it makes it harder to Channel, but from Elayne's POV darius_sedai - 09/12/2010 06:52:55 PM 1238 Views
Re: not really Zeratul - 09/12/2010 05:16:02 PM 1230 Views
Angreal have buffers moratcorlm - 09/12/2010 05:38:45 PM 1252 Views
none of them are very strong darius_sedai - 09/12/2010 05:38:49 PM 1222 Views
We never really get a feel for their relative strengths redqueen - 09/12/2010 05:51:38 PM 1138 Views
Re: We never really get a feel for their relative strengths sleepinghour - 09/12/2010 10:00:23 PM 1376 Views
Exactly moratcorlm - 10/12/2010 09:36:52 AM 1400 Views
Yes. In PoD Aviendha states that the woman-wrapped-in-hair angreal almost doubles her strength... Shannow - 09/12/2010 06:30:41 PM 1260 Views
you have the wrong angreal and the wrong strength darius_sedai - 09/12/2010 07:07:18 PM 1243 Views
Nope. You are the one whose got the wrong angreal... Shannow - 09/12/2010 07:15:38 PM 1044 Views
where is that quote my friend? darius_sedai - 09/12/2010 08:07:50 PM 1108 Views
PoD: The Breaking Storm Shannow - 09/12/2010 08:16:58 PM 1058 Views
Ah yes, ... "almost 2x as much" still doesn't support your assertion that Nyn is 50% above Elayne darius_sedai - 09/12/2010 08:20:37 PM 1204 Views
That's a gross skewing of what that sentence means... Shannow - 09/12/2010 09:05:05 PM 1220 Views
Don't be absurd... fionwe1987 - 09/12/2010 09:21:00 PM 1211 Views
Yes, but does BS know that? Shannow - 09/12/2010 09:26:10 PM 1153 Views
Nonsense... fionwe1987 - 09/12/2010 09:45:17 PM 1177 Views
she does not say that! she says Moghedien could kill her before she could react. so could Daigian darius_sedai - 09/12/2010 09:34:50 PM 1286 Views
"The only Aes Sedai who could hope to match one of the Forsaken was in Ebou Dar..." Shannow - 09/12/2010 09:44:25 PM 1309 Views
And yet... fionwe1987 - 09/12/2010 09:48:34 PM 1220 Views
No, Egwene does NOT think she can defeat Mesaana in a One Power battle... Shannow - 09/12/2010 09:59:35 PM 1456 Views
Here are te quotes... fionwe1987 - 09/12/2010 10:10:09 PM 1252 Views
Did you not read the quote above, made by Egwene in the heat of battle with Mesaana? Shannow - 09/12/2010 10:34:05 PM 1256 Views
It might interest you to know that that was Katerine! fionwe1987 - 10/12/2010 12:15:51 AM 1068 Views
Oh nonsense Sidious - 10/12/2010 04:43:44 AM 1148 Views
But that's his point. Gher - 10/12/2010 06:01:59 AM 1155 Views
its a useless point Sidious - 10/12/2010 10:11:00 AM 1250 Views
Yes, utterly useless... Shannow - 10/12/2010 11:46:15 AM 1198 Views
Dude, you need to re-read the books... fionwe1987 - 10/12/2010 04:15:11 PM 1149 Views
he means Sheriam, but your points still hold true darius_sedai - 10/12/2010 08:19:16 PM 1161 Views
Re: he means Sheriam, but your points still hold true Sidious - 11/12/2010 07:21:49 AM 1223 Views
potentially, but Mesaana later turns up with BA using the 19 stolen ter'angreal. darius_sedai - 11/12/2010 03:41:41 PM 1130 Views
I'm so glad you're a mod! Setting great standards there... fionwe1987 - 10/12/2010 04:11:56 PM 1115 Views
Re: I'm so glad you're a mod! Setting great standards there... Sidious - 10/12/2010 04:35:23 PM 1184 Views
What? fionwe1987 - 10/12/2010 11:19:57 PM 1238 Views
Re: What? Sidious - 11/12/2010 07:20:19 AM 1198 Views
Oh boohoo... fionwe1987 - 11/12/2010 07:55:58 PM 1219 Views
Duh! Seriously, are you Elaida or something? Your logic is astounding. fionwe1987 - 10/12/2010 06:47:17 AM 1082 Views
Duh! Seriously, are you Elaida or something? Your logic is astounding. fionwe1987 - 10/12/2010 06:47:18 AM 1205 Views
which only tells us that Nynaeve is equal to the Forsaken. Has nothing to do with Egwene being darius_sedai - 10/12/2010 01:51:12 PM 1008 Views
Nynaeve has been channeling (albeit blocked) for close to 10 years darius_sedai - 10/12/2010 02:24:57 PM 1296 Views
Think about the logic of what you're proposing... Shannow - 10/12/2010 02:39:56 PM 1241 Views
It's what's in the friggin books! darius_sedai - 10/12/2010 03:33:08 PM 1208 Views
Duplicate post - deleted *NM* Shannow - 09/12/2010 08:19:05 PM 599 Views
Re: Yes. moratcorlm - 09/12/2010 07:49:12 PM 1233 Views
You're obviously a latecomer to this ongoing debate. Here's a recap... Shannow - 09/12/2010 08:03:51 PM 1333 Views
where this falls apart is that Daigian at a 10 is too weak darius_sedai - 09/12/2010 08:16:17 PM 1263 Views
Nope... Shannow - 09/12/2010 08:44:51 PM 969 Views
now you are just force fitting quotes into what you want to say darius_sedai - 09/12/2010 09:29:20 PM 1083 Views
Nope... Shannow - 09/12/2010 09:42:58 PM 1160 Views
all of the girls were Forced! Nynaeve was already at least as strong as Moiraine in EoTW darius_sedai - 11/12/2010 08:04:02 PM 1211 Views
Re: all of the girls were Forced! Nynaeve was already at least as strong as Moiraine in EoTW sleepinghour - 11/12/2010 11:59:55 PM 1144 Views
that's the point I'm making darius_sedai - 12/12/2010 12:58:38 AM 1013 Views
I don't think Elayne was forced Zeratul - 12/12/2010 04:33:26 PM 1182 Views
I believe there is a quote from RJ that states they all were, but Egwene was held damane darius_sedai - 12/12/2010 04:43:29 PM 968 Views
Re: I believe there is a quote from RJ that states they all were, but Egwene was held damane darius_sedai - 12/12/2010 04:46:50 PM 1206 Views
Thanks for the quote Zeratul - 12/12/2010 07:17:30 PM 1287 Views
perhaps the opportunity hasn't arisen? And of course it's politic to appologize to the Amyrlin darius_sedai - 12/12/2010 07:41:11 PM 1154 Views
Re: all of the girls were Forced! Nynaeve was already at least as strong as Moiraine in EoTW sleepinghour - 12/12/2010 08:04:21 PM 1177 Views
that's where I'm estimating Nynaeve being close to Siuan and Moiraine in EoTW darius_sedai - 12/12/2010 08:30:54 PM 1171 Views
Re: now you are just force fitting quotes into what you want to say sleepinghour - 10/12/2010 01:17:10 AM 1361 Views
nope darius_sedai - 10/12/2010 02:05:00 PM 1293 Views
Mesaana Sidious - 10/12/2010 04:43:07 AM 1055 Views
agreed darius_sedai - 10/12/2010 01:48:59 PM 1122 Views
Re: agreed Sidious - 10/12/2010 04:38:28 PM 986 Views
very true, and I find it interesting that during the TAR battle Mesaana didn't bother darius_sedai - 10/12/2010 05:03:43 PM 1071 Views
Re: very true, and I find it interesting that during the TAR battle Mesaana didn't bother Sidious - 11/12/2010 07:22:54 AM 1243 Views
yes and no darius_sedai - 11/12/2010 03:47:28 PM 1199 Views
Re: You're obviously a latecomer to this ongoing debate. Here's a recap... moratcorlm - 10/12/2010 09:19:17 AM 1245 Views
OK. Here's the clear evidence of Dagian's, Moiraine's, Egwenes and Moghedien's comparative levels. Shannow - 10/12/2010 12:00:48 PM 1131 Views
"clear evidence" moratcorlm - 10/12/2010 01:27:01 PM 1182 Views
Laughable interpretation... Shannow - 10/12/2010 01:31:57 PM 1188 Views
Re: Laughable interpretation... moratcorlm - 10/12/2010 03:34:01 PM 1212 Views
Amys is clearly stronger than half Egwene's strength... fionwe1987 - 10/12/2010 04:27:30 PM 1132 Views
Doesn't the forkroot explain that? *NM* Gher - 10/12/2010 04:47:53 PM 794 Views
couple of thoughts here darius_sedai - 10/12/2010 08:01:44 PM 1186 Views
Re: couple of thoughts here fionwe1987 - 10/12/2010 11:27:19 PM 1104 Views
that's what I said! EDIT darius_sedai - 11/12/2010 04:03:59 PM 1006 Views
Well... fionwe1987 - 11/12/2010 07:58:38 PM 1208 Views
Katerine is a pain in the ass and Silviana wasn't about to risk only one woman holding that shield darius_sedai - 11/12/2010 08:26:29 PM 1058 Views
Leane was shielded by two sisters as well sleepinghour - 11/12/2010 11:14:08 PM 1081 Views
I think that's almost certainly a custom for women held in the open cells darius_sedai - 11/12/2010 11:22:12 PM 1109 Views
Re: I think that's almost certainly a custom for women held in the open cells sleepinghour - 12/12/2010 12:04:33 AM 1201 Views
I agree with that completely. darius_sedai - 12/12/2010 01:03:54 AM 1137 Views
Oh... so we dismiss all quotes from people we don't like? fionwe1987 - 12/12/2010 05:18:42 AM 1205 Views
re-read the section my friend. EDIT darius_sedai - 12/12/2010 03:58:28 PM 1107 Views
Dude... fionwe1987 - 12/12/2010 06:29:43 PM 1076 Views
did you read the quote? They discuss how much they gave her on the way to the Tower! darius_sedai - 12/12/2010 07:39:55 PM 1161 Views
Not one of those things answers my rather simple question... fionwe1987 - 13/12/2010 02:27:44 AM 1172 Views
because it's the first time Egwene has been dosed with Forkroot darius_sedai - 13/12/2010 03:55:18 AM 1105 Views
She knows but she doesn't know? fionwe1987 - 13/12/2010 05:35:55 AM 1176 Views
She knows that Nynaeve had told her it dampened her ability darius_sedai - 13/12/2010 05:13:23 PM 1113 Views
And she doesn't know any details... fionwe1987 - 13/12/2010 07:19:12 PM 1126 Views
this conversation is so pointless darius_sedai - 13/12/2010 10:43:35 PM 992 Views
Yes. But since you continue to not answer the main question, necessary. fionwe1987 - 13/12/2010 11:24:24 PM 987 Views
Re: Yes. But since you continue to not answer the main question, necessary. Sidious - 14/12/2010 11:06:55 AM 1015 Views
Of course its obvious now! fionwe1987 - 14/12/2010 12:44:59 PM 1220 Views
it was always obvious that to me. The first thing Egwene thinks is about what the drug does to her darius_sedai - 18/12/2010 05:07:38 AM 1061 Views
Shielding Sidious - 13/12/2010 08:01:19 PM 2567 Views
Practice. We do know that AS practice their weaves far more than WO darius_sedai - 13/12/2010 10:50:09 PM 1156 Views
Re: Practice. We do know that AS practice their weaves far more than WO Sidious - 14/12/2010 04:25:20 AM 1280 Views
There is, actually... fionwe1987 - 13/12/2010 11:28:42 PM 1060 Views
Meh Sidious - 14/12/2010 04:22:45 AM 1170 Views
Well... fionwe1987 - 14/12/2010 04:37:50 AM 1197 Views
Re: Well... Sidious - 14/12/2010 10:52:55 AM 1164 Views
Tell Darius that... fionwe1987 - 14/12/2010 12:47:19 PM 1094 Views
of course Katerine is redundant! 2 women of Barasine and Katerine's strength darius_sedai - 18/12/2010 05:00:50 AM 1062 Views
Re: Amys is clearly stronger than half Egwene's strength... Sidious - 11/12/2010 07:31:25 AM 1299 Views
um, Elayne was in the process of bleeding to death and then had just been Healed darius_sedai - 11/12/2010 03:50:27 PM 1190 Views
You forget... fionwe1987 - 11/12/2010 08:02:03 PM 1221 Views
astounding "evidence" darius_sedai - 10/12/2010 09:58:47 PM 1214 Views
Re: astounding "evidence" The_Archer - 11/12/2010 09:15:03 AM 1226 Views
thanks darius_sedai - 11/12/2010 03:54:54 PM 1361 Views
Re: thanks The_Archer - 12/12/2010 12:49:52 PM 1068 Views
We're not in disagreement for the most part darius_sedai - 12/12/2010 04:23:02 PM 1050 Views
Re: We're not in disagreement for the most part The_Archer - 12/12/2010 05:00:02 PM 1159 Views
Actually in the AoL all AS who went over (50%) were refered to as Forsaken darius_sedai - 12/12/2010 05:13:46 PM 1184 Views
Re: Actually in the AoL all AS who went over (50%) were refered to as Forsaken The_Archer - 12/12/2010 06:35:02 PM 1148 Views
All of the AS who went over to the DO refered to themselves as the Chosen darius_sedai - 12/12/2010 07:50:59 PM 1156 Views
Re: All of the AS who went over to the DO refered to themselves as the Chosen The_Archer - 12/12/2010 11:05:58 PM 1213 Views
Re: All of the AS who went over to the DO refered to themselves as the Chosen The_Archer - 12/12/2010 11:11:29 PM 1114 Views
Re: All of the AS who went over to the DO refered to themselves as the Chosen The_Archer - 12/12/2010 11:14:47 PM 1174 Views
I don't get the logic here... fionwe1987 - 09/12/2010 09:41:18 PM 1211 Views
which was one of my first thoughts in reading the scene! *NM* darius_sedai - 09/12/2010 09:43:54 PM 853 Views
It doubles her strength. Nynaeve is only 50% stronger. So she only needs half of it to match Nynaeve Shannow - 09/12/2010 09:46:42 PM 1149 Views
And...? fionwe1987 - 09/12/2010 09:51:57 PM 1153 Views
Personally, I thought it had something to do with not harming the babies. Shannow - 09/12/2010 10:01:10 PM 1070 Views
That was my interpretation too Sidious - 10/12/2010 04:36:38 AM 1124 Views
Re: That was my interpretation too moratcorlm - 10/12/2010 09:31:12 AM 1258 Views
what books are you reading? she's absolutely convinced until that scene darius_sedai - 10/12/2010 04:12:34 PM 1226 Views
The oaths proposal is after the jailhouse break in the timeline Zeratul - 10/12/2010 04:31:12 PM 1106 Views
*Double post, please delete* *NM* Zeratul - 10/12/2010 04:35:54 PM 692 Views
You are correct! So clearly worry about the babies was not a reason to not draw more darius_sedai - 10/12/2010 05:05:30 PM 1116 Views
And... fionwe1987 - 10/12/2010 04:32:28 PM 1112 Views
Re: what books are you reading? she's absolutely convinced until that scene Sidious - 10/12/2010 04:41:25 PM 1126 Views
Re: what books are you reading? she's absolutely convinced until that scene moratcorlm - 10/12/2010 05:02:10 PM 1141 Views
and as a poster above points out the scene is AFTER she's stabbed darius_sedai - 10/12/2010 05:07:17 PM 1171 Views
Yes, I did know that. moratcorlm - 11/12/2010 04:06:00 PM 1160 Views
meant that response to go to Sidious ... sorry! darius_sedai - 11/12/2010 08:44:40 PM 1213 Views
Oops. *NM* moratcorlm - 10/12/2010 07:15:57 PM 756 Views
Re: More evidence that Elayne is much weaker than the Forsaken The_Archer - 10/12/2010 08:22:21 PM 1093 Views
Re: More evidence that Elayne is much weaker than the Forsaken sleepinghour - 10/12/2010 08:33:25 PM 1151 Views
We have very little to go on with the FS strengths... darius_sedai - 10/12/2010 09:04:33 PM 1240 Views
Re: More evidence that Elayne is much weaker than the Forsaken The_Archer - 10/12/2010 09:12:12 PM 1041 Views
they can actually sense both which is how Elayne knows Nynaeve is not at full potential darius_sedai - 10/12/2010 09:22:35 PM 1196 Views
Re: More evidence that Elayne is much weaker than the Forsaken The_Archer - 10/12/2010 09:31:13 PM 1226 Views
Please note that Nynaeve has commented every time she's been around darius_sedai - 10/12/2010 10:08:16 PM 1107 Views
Re: Please note that Nynaeve has commented every time she's been around The_Archer - 10/12/2010 10:50:32 PM 1217 Views
It's more than just fear of Moridin that makes her choose an attack from such a distance darius_sedai - 10/12/2010 11:10:57 PM 1057 Views
Re: More evidence that Elayne is much weaker than the Forsaken sleepinghour - 10/12/2010 10:50:20 PM 1200 Views
Re: More evidence that Elayne is much weaker than the Forsaken Sidious - 11/12/2010 07:29:30 AM 1358 Views
Help im new! The_Archer - 13/12/2010 07:41:04 PM 1219 Views
Re: More evidence you haven't been paying attention. The Angry Druid - 13/12/2010 09:56:45 PM 1325 Views
Re: More evidence you haven't been paying attention. The_Archer - 13/12/2010 10:50:25 PM 1125 Views
How is it that this the longest thread on this board? Is it even relevant in the least? *NM* Lord Haart - 18/12/2010 02:53:22 PM 773 Views
Re: How is it that this the longest thread on this board? Is it even relevant in the least? Sidious - 18/12/2010 08:21:24 PM 1072 Views
Look at the topic. As if we needed evidence that Elayne is weaker than the Foresaken. Lord Haart - 19/12/2010 04:41:25 AM 1094 Views
you misread the topic Sidious - 19/12/2010 05:30:26 AM 1234 Views
But the debate is moronic because... fionwe1987 - 19/12/2010 05:43:07 AM 1090 Views
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