I wasn't saying that Joline et al. has any formal power over Mat, just that they are women of power. To argue that Mat has a right to boss the Aes Sedai around as he wishes must be a right you give to Mat because you like him. If it had been Egeanin that provided the money and she therefore bossed Mat around like he did the Aes Sedai, you would hate her and call her unreasonable, I'm sure.
No, I wouldn't. Mat is putting himself in big danger by trying to save the Aes Sedai. He could have just left Ebou Dar with his friends with no need to hide or endure the painfully slow movement of Luca's circus. The very least the Aes Sedai should do is not boss him around. As I already said, if they can't stand Mat that much they are f ree to leave...if they dare.
Reason with them, yes, and discuss with them, but he attempts no such thing. He just walks right over them and gets annoyed by their few attempts to aid and get information for themselves, even if he refuses to reason with them in any lengthy, respectful discussion. We see all the Aes Sedai in Mat's company mostly through his lenses, and some from Tuon -- not exactly fair witnesses. Neither of them ever gives the Aes Sedai any chance to behave as anything other than children.
Mat does try to reason with them but that's pretty much like talking to a wall. The vast majority of AS exhibit the same behaviour, so it's not as if this happens only when viewed through Mat's PoV.
And yes, many women in WoT, Aes Sedai in particular, seems to be very demeaning to other people, and men in particular. Teslyn, as a red, is probably in the beginning a pure man-hater. However, she grows by the experience, obviously. Teslyn in ToM might be something that breaks Mats general misogynicism, but she also has to figuratively bow to him first, so it is uncertain to me if one can count it. She grows, but I am not sure Mat has, yet.
Teslyn bows to Mat? She just thanks him. It's pretty much the least she can do, if you ask me.
He has a healthy dose of dislike for nobles in general, but he has a amiable relationship to men of power, among them officers like Guybon and a Prince like Beslan, and -- I'm sure -- others throughout the series without actually having the time to check for them now. His treatment of Egwene was not exactly respectful, and she was being bullied by yet more, in his view, powerful women that he could vex by bowing to her. In private he was severely disrespectful to her.
Mat likes nobles...if they are agreeable enough and treat him like an equal. He likes Beslan because Beslan likes to drink and have fun. So he basically likes nobles who don't really behave like typical nobles. Which excludes pretty much all Aes Sedai since they always try to boss him around, including his very own friends Nynaeve and Egwene. And yes, he didn't bow and grovel in front of Egwene in private but why should he? She isn't his boss and he was right that she was put there as a puppet and to take the fall if things go south. Egwene on her part called him Dragonsworn and implied Rand has put Mat in charge of the Band on a whim, never mind she was there when Mat created the Band all on his own and even Moiraine praised his prowess as a general. Some friend, this Egwene...
Tylin -- I thought when she was introduced -- was the female Mat. She was, I thought, supposed to teach Mat -- by doing the same to him -- that he was disrespectful to women by just thinking of them as items with "bosoms" and "bottoms." I learnt as I kept reading, however, that such was not the case and her narrative importance seems to be as a pretty sex-partner for Mat that he had to avenge, like the knight in shining armor that only he can be. She is not an exception to Mat's demeaning attitude towards women, she is more like Mat as a woman. And Mat -- of course -- took no notice to the lesson he should have learned. I guess I mistakenly assumed Jordan wrote something more progressive than I should have. At least readers can take that lesson if observant, even if it might be unintended.
Tylin was not doing the same as Mat. It's been pointed out again and again that Mat doesn't chase women who refuse his initial advances. Even Egwene and Nynaeve who hate Mat's womanizer ways think so. The idea that Mat should have learned something from practically being raped is quite insulting actually. Especially if you flip the genders and see how it looks. Would you have been okay with the idea of Nynaeve being raped in order to learn not to call every man a woolhead?
Mat would have thought of all of them as a combination of "bosoms and bottoms", annoyances and tools that should just do what he says and shut up. He would have discussed the "important things" with Gallenne and the-other-commander-that-I-don't-remember-the-name-of, and expected the women to stay away, make trouble anyway and hopefully make some dinner or something. Women are objects to mat, either for viewing pleasure, sex, aid or annoyances -- to Perrin and other adults they are people, like men.
Mat's inner monologues can be confusing. He continually sells himself short, thinks he is a coward, that he only wants to drink and gamble and that he dislikes everyone and anyone, that women will be the death of him, etc. He insists again and again that he is no "bloody hero". He is quite similar to Nynaeve in that respect actually. Nynaeve 's thoughts indicate apparent total sexism but her actions show otherwise. So it's better to judge the actions.His actions indicate that he does respect Nynaeve, Elayne, Verin, Moiraine, Tuon, Egwene, Setalle Anan, Aviendha, Birgitte, Aludra etc. Yes, he can also appreciate their beauty too. So freaking what? Not really Mat's fault that in WoT every other woman is strikingly beautiful.
The reason he offers Elayne the Dragons and not Rand, is that she was nearer and had access to the necessary resources and it needed to be done as soon as possible. Plus, Elayne needed them. It was a narrative imperative, given that the author wants Elayne to be more powerful, as a counter to the Seanchan.
Still, the fact is he trust Elayne with something that important, so surely he does trust her. He also gives her the foxhead amulet for three whole days, tells her about the gholam and together they think of a plan to defeat it. Why would he do any of of those things if he saw Elayne as just a pretty face? He could simply send someone to go look for Rand instead. Or the people whom Rand had left in charge - at least in Tear they know him very well and probably wouldn't have refused him resources.
This message last edited by Icarium on 09/12/2010 at 05:40:02 PM
Serious ramblings about WOT
- 09/12/2010 04:10:05 AM
1985 Views
Re: Serious ramblings about WOT
- 09/12/2010 04:26:52 AM
1094 Views
Re: Serious ramblings about WOT
- 09/12/2010 04:44:47 AM
1078 Views
Re: Serious ramblings about WOT
- 09/12/2010 05:15:12 AM
995 Views
Re: Serious ramblings about WOT
- 09/12/2010 06:40:09 AM
1036 Views
Re: Serious ramblings about WOT
- 09/12/2010 05:36:51 PM
1087 Views
Very interesting.
- 09/12/2010 05:50:23 AM
1126 Views
Oddly enough, I'd say that the WOMEN all seem to be cut from the same cloth
- 09/12/2010 03:10:43 PM
896 Views
Oh, and a note on Sanderson: I think his WoT stuff isn't as good as his original works
- 09/12/2010 03:34:27 PM
917 Views
Re: Oh, and a note on Sanderson: I think his WoT stuff isn't as good as his original works
- 09/12/2010 03:47:37 PM
842 Views
Hm... I'm not sure if "simpler" is the right word for Sanderson's magic systems
- 09/12/2010 04:40:30 PM
821 Views