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Re: nice post DomA Send a noteboard - 09/12/2010 01:23:50 PM
I think the problem facing the Tower is how to prove that a woman has proficiency with saidar to the point that she can be raised.


I don't think so. The sisters already judge an Accepted's proficiency with saidar is now great enough to pass the test, they don't need the test for this.

This isn't a channelling test, it's a test of character and discipline foremostly. It's very much in the spirit of military training. Obedience is paramount, and I think this is why so many women pass it successfully: the Tower trained them well in discipline.

It's a good test to measure battlefield skills in sisters, and it weeds out sisters that might "shame" the Tower because nowadays an Aes Sedai is expected to be able to play the part of a demi-god in any condition when she's outside the Tower, because that illusion that sisters are superhuman is one of the last things that prevents the Tower's status from falling apart. There used to be a time when Aes Sedai were not superhuman, they were rather human with wondrous skills that they agreed to put to the service of others. Nowadays, the Tower rather expect the sisters to hide their humanity, and give the illusion they have wondrous skills a lot of them don't even have (and those they have, they barely use if it's not Healing). Part of the WT's philosophy now is: never attempt anything when there's a chance you fail; take refuge behind the smokescreen of mysterious unfathomable purposes to justify doing nothing . This "saves" the illusion that the WT is all-powerful, but also increase the notion that the sisters are indifferent to almost everything.

The best Healer of the Age barely passed the test, because she will risk her life for others, and won't blindly follow stupid orders just because they're orders. She claims the right to make her own judgement calls. Nynaeve has great control of her channelling. She also lets her anger and emotions flow through her while she remains in complete control when Healing. She has terrible bedside manners and will insult her patients, but venting out is already much better than passing her aggressivity on them physically the way Semirhage did!

Nynaeve doesn't fit what's expected of an Aes Sedai these days. The problem is not really with her, it's rather rather with the Tower's extremely narrow vision of what an Aes Sedai should be like, which in turn comes from the extremely narrow field of actions for AS. All of them need to be able to pull off the "AS behaviour" among rulers and peasants.

Ironically, by serving people Nynaeve has probably done more to gain AS new respect than anyone else in the Tower had done in a long time, but Nynaeve's problem is that the Tower is afraid that she refuses to fit their mold. They see women who think outside the box as a threat., especially when Nynaeve's actions create expectations for AS that most sisters don't want to be tied to. Egwene also faces this. She's seen as dangerous because she challenges conservative thinking and traditions too much. AS are terribly frightened by the notions of change/adaptation/progress. And of work, real work.

I bet in the AOL the Guild wasn't expecting AS to fit so much into a way of thinking, and limiting the status only to certain types of personality, the way the current Tower does.

It is unfortunate that they chose combat as the sole 'subject' for these women. However, I don't think emphasis on serenity is a total waste.


It's not, but it's taught totally from the wrong perspective. Serenity should be self-control, but the ideal of serenity as the Tower sees it is one of achieving complete indifference or a convincing illusion of it. The Tower teach the women that nothing counts beside the Tower and themselves, in that order.

A very great deal of sisters, most even, have very little real self-control. When no one but Aes Sedai is watching (and sometimes when some are), they show their true selves. Some make the most stupid impulsive decisions, Sitters will turn into bikering children, a whole Ajah (including the foremost Sitter and Ajah Head...) was fighting in the streets for which one would get first turn with Nynaeve. So much for self-control....

Real AS "serenity" is rather what Rand pulls off now.

What the White Tower teaches is the skills to fake serenity, by becoming as indifferent as possible to anything that isn't the White Tower (and significantly, it's when matters of the Tower are a stake that AS will loose their cool in public... Insult AS or do something that goes against the Tower and AS serenity will be gone in a blink) Their vaunted "serenity" is little different from what the old Rand was pulling off with his inability to transcend the Void. Asmodean had told him right away something was wrong with the way Rand did it, that it wasn't normal that he had to shut off all his emotions and become completely indifferent to achieve the Oneness (as we know now, that's how the Forsaken are taught to put themselves in the right state to embrace the True Power). Rand had to control his emotions, not shut them off.

The Aes Sedai make the same mistake.

Ideally I'd raise a woman using the interrogation they used on Egwene in KoD... Make her demonstrate her abilities, and also her knowledge of the Power.


Among other things. Another important aspect to demonstrate is understanding of OP ethics, and the rules and laws of the Tower. Virtually all sisters are seriously lacking there. The way they see things, if the Oaths don't stop them it's permitted, and if what's permitted doesn't harm the Tower than it's OK. Most AS won't put themselves in danger to be able to use the OP as a weapon, not because it's wrong but because being seen doing this could seriously harm the Tower's reputation. OTOH, they've let themselves gain a reputation of deviousness, hypocrisy and dishonesty by losing nearly all their inhibitions to go around the first Oath. They got into their mind than when they absolutely want to be believed, they just had to say something straight out and remind people of the Oath. That rarely works anymore.



I wonder how they raised people in the AOL? Rand refers to himself being properly raised.


I would think there were many "levels". I would imagine that to gain the title, you needed to go through a general training far more exhaustive than the Tower's OP curriculum. I imagine the training was much harder, because I bet a major focus of the Aes Sedai was on competence and safety. AS were expected to use their skills to serve others, so it was vital that whatever they performed, they could do so with perfect control and safely. It wasn't enough to be able to weave correctly, to be an Aes Sedai you had to understand your skills and your limits, as causing no harm was paramount to the Guild.

But OTOH, the feeling for the AOL scenes and the Guide is that anyone with the ability stood a chance to become a full Servant of All, that what mattered most was that you understood and followed the rules, and what you could do, you could do according to the Guild's standards of safety.

IMO, it's very likely there were advanced specialized tests, and prohibitions against certain weaves if you could not perform them well enough. I suspect a woman like Moghedien would not have had the license to Heal, or to create objects., and several other things, because she had no Talent for this. Someone like Semirhage, on the other hand, would have passed all the tests to have the right to perform as a Restorer, and even there they may have been several degrees and speciality. One Restorer might not have the permit to treat brain damage, for instance, and most AS may not have had the right to attempt work at the cellular level the way someone like Aginor could.

I even suspect you had to gain the right to use an angreal and even more san'angreal. Those let you perform stuff way beyond your natural strength, so you had to demonstrate the ability to channel with those safely before you were allowed to use them. Was this part of basic training? Very likely for angreal, but perhaps not for san'angreal. I think you probably had to pass a skill test to be allowed to wield so much of the OP.

Being Aes Sedai was different in the AOL, it's implied. For most of them perhaps, it was more like a permit to use your ability, because you had demonstrated the skills to use it for service, and you have been trained in channelling ethics and all the rules of the Guild. As we know, a great deal of Aes Sedai, probably most of them, didn't make a career out of it. Someone like Moghedien was probably more like a volunteer fireman. She had trained and passed the tests and had the title, so she could be called upon at need by her local Hall, according to her skills. It probably took a whole lot more talent to envision a career among the other AS, the sort of career lead by Semirhage, or Barid Bel Medar, LTT. And it's not that a woman like Mesaana had no skills, but the standards to be allowed to do research at the Collam Daan were exacting and she didn't have what it took for that (among other things, the positions were likely limited... only the best were given a chair of research)

In general it sounds like you had to exceed greatly the current Tower's standards to make a career in the Guild or in the Guild-based faciliities like the Collam Daan. OTOH, it's also likely a great deal of women put out by the Tower would have managed to meet the AOL standards to be an Aes Sedai (if they followed the OP training, of course), as few ever seem to be put out for lack of channelling skills, but rather for not fitting the mold. The OP aside, I bet fairly few sisters in the White Tower would meet the standards of the Guild in issues like ethics, behaviour and mentality.



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Nynaeve's stupidity and the test for Aes Sedai - 07/12/2010 08:27:05 PM 4289 Views
Just like all women. - 07/12/2010 09:15:12 PM 1172 Views
Way to totally misunderstand the chapter - 07/12/2010 09:39:08 PM 1649 Views
I second this - 07/12/2010 10:10:24 PM 1345 Views
your bold is stuck. *NM* - 07/12/2010 10:21:22 PM 575 Views
He BOLDLY seconded it... *NM* - 08/12/2010 03:04:33 PM 550 Views
which is quite excellent. I was just leting him know *NM* - 08/12/2010 03:28:24 PM 457 Views
I think that statement says it all. - 07/12/2010 10:19:50 PM 1377 Views
Thanks. That's exactly what I think. - 08/12/2010 08:29:28 AM 1243 Views
+1, well said *NM* - 08/12/2010 11:19:29 AM 513 Views
Agrees *NM* - 09/12/2010 03:27:53 PM 950 Views
Yes, the OP totally whiffed here. Nyn couldn't remember.. - 11/12/2010 01:50:11 AM 1190 Views
On the whole, the test is innappropriate IMO - 07/12/2010 09:40:08 PM 1468 Views
I agree with this entirely *NM* - 07/12/2010 10:07:52 PM 509 Views
very well said *NM* - 07/12/2010 10:23:06 PM 459 Views
It's kind of a chicken and egg thing - 07/12/2010 11:13:19 PM 1120 Views
Re: It's kind of a chicken and egg thing - 08/12/2010 12:37:20 AM 1408 Views
nice post - 08/12/2010 09:20:02 AM 1240 Views
Isn't it implied - 08/12/2010 02:16:58 PM 1006 Views
no they were students together - 08/12/2010 05:33:17 PM 956 Views
No, Lanfear was older than Lews - 08/12/2010 07:21:45 PM 1180 Views
Where on earth did you get that from? - 08/12/2010 08:41:16 PM 1108 Views
Re: Where on earth did you get that from? - 09/12/2010 10:27:20 AM 1116 Views
Re: Where on earth did you get that from? - 09/12/2010 03:56:32 PM 1190 Views
I always got the impression that they were together for quiet some time - 09/12/2010 04:34:23 PM 1139 Views
I think skill with Saidar is easy enough to judge as it's a simple matter to see the skill - 08/12/2010 05:37:27 PM 1039 Views
I think the greens should have been on Nynaeve's side as well - 08/12/2010 06:18:16 PM 1158 Views
Problem is they are Aes Sedai and thus more likley to be political rather than rational! *NM* - 08/12/2010 08:52:00 PM 809 Views
too f'n true *NM* - 09/12/2010 12:17:58 AM 519 Views
Re: nice post - 09/12/2010 01:23:50 PM 1222 Views
On the matter of strength - 09/12/2010 08:51:36 PM 1061 Views
Re: On the matter of strength - 10/12/2010 10:38:42 AM 1061 Views
Strength was "prized" in the AoL ... but lack of strength was not a negative - 12/12/2010 01:41:08 AM 1023 Views
The test is stupid and it was about time someone pointed it out - 07/12/2010 10:29:38 PM 1061 Views
Channeling under duress IS necessary for ALL Aes Sedai - 05/01/2011 12:04:53 AM 1169 Views
Well - 07/12/2010 11:03:38 PM 1104 Views
Status is not an end in itself. *NM* - 07/12/2010 11:52:37 PM 528 Views
They're not really stupid... - 08/12/2010 01:00:20 AM 1137 Views
They're constantly outsmarted by a teenage girl that has spent most of her life in a damn farm. - 08/12/2010 10:32:50 AM 1122 Views
yeah because that's so realistic - 08/12/2010 12:17:29 PM 1070 Views
Egwene had everything handed to her on a silver platter. - 08/12/2010 11:50:17 PM 1046 Views
Bah... - 09/12/2010 10:56:24 AM 1158 Views
Nope, the Sitters were always stupid - 09/12/2010 12:37:05 PM 1087 Views
cause being rural automatically makes you dumb?..... *NM* - 09/12/2010 05:34:11 PM 594 Views
It makes you uneducated - 09/12/2010 05:46:49 PM 1012 Views
You are not only wrong in your call, - 08/12/2010 04:39:44 AM 1335 Views
Re: You are not only wrong in your call, - 08/12/2010 09:13:37 AM 1352 Views
if that is the purpose of the test - 08/12/2010 01:34:45 PM 1061 Views
minor disagreement - 08/12/2010 05:27:51 PM 1136 Views
Yes, but you can be not-panicked and not calm of body - 08/12/2010 06:38:56 PM 960 Views
not really the same thing as what the AS are getting at though - 08/12/2010 09:02:05 PM 1611 Views
that's retarded, imo - 09/12/2010 12:21:27 AM 1086 Views
About Elaida... - 09/12/2010 12:29:21 PM 1056 Views
...no wonder the Aes Sedai are floundering - 09/12/2010 01:43:42 PM 862 Views
Oh it's totally stupid! - 09/12/2010 04:37:14 PM 1107 Views
No I know why she took the job. I just don't understand why she got it - 09/12/2010 04:52:34 PM 1049 Views
I think Elaida just smarmed up at the right time, Morgase was very young then - 09/12/2010 05:52:29 PM 1098 Views
hmm. curse smarming, then *NM* - 09/12/2010 07:47:26 PM 459 Views
As I recall... - 10/12/2010 05:18:25 AM 1075 Views
Oh. Well, I'm sorry then. - 08/12/2010 06:48:50 PM 1110 Views
I think it has already been established that the purpose of the test is to ensure that - 08/12/2010 09:59:18 PM 854 Views
Yeah, but how does that work? - 08/12/2010 10:24:35 PM 1015 Views
Somewhere in the sub-conscious they know what they're doing is important to them. - 09/12/2010 12:20:47 AM 1125 Views
Even so, it wouldn't work. - 09/12/2010 03:32:55 AM 1038 Views
Another headless chicken example. - 09/12/2010 12:30:02 AM 1021 Views
the headless chicken is just such a lovely metaphor for panic *NM* - 09/12/2010 04:48:11 AM 460 Views
Re: Oh. Well, I'm sorry then. - 09/12/2010 12:07:15 PM 1110 Views
Re: Oh. Well, I'm sorry then. - 10/12/2010 05:32:27 AM 1180 Views
The main difference - 10/12/2010 05:50:43 AM 1040 Views
I'm not sure I agree. - 08/12/2010 12:17:12 PM 1108 Views
You seem to have no grasp of the difference between "politic" and "right" - 09/12/2010 02:59:50 AM 1165 Views
I hate it when I love you just a little *NM* - 09/12/2010 04:46:57 AM 492 Views
Re: You seem to have no grasp of the difference between "politic" and "right" - 09/12/2010 09:26:21 AM 1073 Views
That's not the dilema - 09/12/2010 05:23:19 PM 1261 Views
That's not what it's really about - 10/12/2010 05:44:12 AM 1018 Views
The paralells are not obvious to me... - 15/12/2010 11:42:51 AM 1101 Views
More like - 15/12/2010 01:26:40 PM 1015 Views

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