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Re: Very interesting. Andreas Sedai Send a noteboard - 09/12/2010 07:27:06 AM
Interesting that you use the silver platter metaphor against Elayne in contrast to Egwene, since it has always been a large part of my dislike for Egwene that she never had to earn anything.
Yes, and that has always irked at me a bit. Elayne, as a noble, actually and undeniably got everything on a silver platter. That is where the metaphor comes from, after all. Egwene is an inn-keepers daughter, something slightly like a middle class in the rural society, but at least not nobility. She has gone through trials both in her escape from the two rivers and in the later progress of the books (some of the least were also shared with Elayne, though she mysteriously and with the exception of the forkroot-incident, and possibly Tanchicho, was never in any real danger and got to treat it all as a fun adventure), at the hands of the Seanchan, in her Aiel training and in her encounter with Lanfear and the super-angreal. Also she has had a lot of challenges in the World of Dreams, and in her political dealings with the Salidar Aes Sedai, and in her captivity in the Tower. And with Mesaana and the Black Ajah. In the arc of the story told in the WoT-books, Egwene has certainly not gotten anything on a silver platter, except maybe the initial Salidar raising. That has been rather poorly explained, but at least -- if not thought about in detail -- attempted explained.

But I see some of your... complaints... about her too. But the problem is really not with Egwene's intended and actual role in the actual story told in the books, but the sheer incredibility of it. If the story is really as the Egwene-favorable POVs, including her own, has portrait them, and as I believe Jordan and Sanderson have intended them, then she is absolutely something close to the only reasonable leader among the Aes Sedai. If one looks at the implications of such a framework, however, and interprets all kinds of nasty implications in some small segments of Egwene's POVs, then I can understand it. But to treat Elayne with such reverence, and Egwene with such loathing... well, that is just unreasonable...

Otherwise he's just -- like Rand -- hopelessly misogynistic and demeaning to women in a world where women is supposed to have a higher status than men in many ways.
Curious. I assume that you mean this relative to how nearly all men whine about women and all women condescend to men, but I am not certain how. Care to elaborate?
Well, the status issue is not a problem to explain. The status of women in this WoT-society, with maybe even a majority of powerful nobles and monarchs as women, as the -- in the beginning at least -- women as the physically most powerful figures through channeling, and similarly powerful men (channelers) hated. With the role of the all-knowing magician-helper going to a female in Moiraine, and the Womens Circle-Town Council, Wisdom-Mayor balances, women are overall far more powerful in this world than any comparable time in human history. That, I think Jordan has confirmed, was also intentional.

The misogynistic behaviour of Mat I have explained in detail in the discussion with Icarium above. On account of Rand, the demeaning way he treats women is mostly his overprotectiveness and image of women as particularly weak, despite all evidence to the contrary. Even female channelers and trained warriors he demeans, even though both are stronger and more capable of protecting themselves than most men. And even if he comes from a world and a country that even in the rural areas he comes from has strong women who compete for power. His monarch, and most noble high seats are women, and even his experience with Nynaeve, Egwene, Aviendha and the Maidens and Mairaine does not make him see them as more capable, only as victims and potential victims.

I really have no idea what this obsession people have with monogamy is about. Even when I talked about it with my girlfriend she sounded horrified. I see no point to it. If Rand loves three women and the three women love him, then why is it that you believe Rand and two of the women must be made miserable just so he can ascribe to this arbitrary notion of a relationship?
Well, my objection here is not to the actual situation: in the arc of the story, this is portrait as natural and good. Almost necessary. But I object to Jordans reasoning behind the move -- that such a big man deserves at least that, since he himself had to girlfriends at one point. Well, it is not really important, but I think it is a bit unnecessary to write that into the story. By the way, do you think it okay for women to have multiple boyfriends as well? If so, cudos, even if I disagree with both assessments.

Interesting. I don't think I've ever heard this one. I have read the opposite very, very frequently however. Which in fact reminds me that I don't think I've read a sniffing joke on this forum for years. How strange.
Well, his portrayal of women also have it's weaknesses, and is not perfect in my opinion. I obviously disagree with Jordan's assessments regarding genders. He is in the "women are from venus, men are from mars"-school, I am in the "humans are from earth"-school. But I also believe that his portrayals of women more fully covers the human being than the men, they are more multi-dimentional. It might be because the plethora of Aes Sedai with significant "personalities" makes them more diverse by sheer numbers...
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Serious ramblings about WOT - 09/12/2010 04:10:05 AM 1985 Views
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It's more that Mat doesn't like to be bossed around by ANYONE - 09/12/2010 03:28:53 PM 769 Views
Re: Serious ramblings about WOT - 09/12/2010 05:36:51 PM 1086 Views
Mat respects the women who give him a reason to respect them - 09/12/2010 06:48:53 PM 916 Views
Tylin raped Mat. *NM* - 09/12/2010 09:23:00 PM 1152 Views
Way off - 23/12/2010 12:03:03 PM 837 Views
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Pretty much. - 10/12/2010 09:59:07 PM 966 Views
Very interesting. - 09/12/2010 05:50:23 AM 1126 Views
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Re: Very interesting. - 09/12/2010 08:15:02 AM 1522 Views
Well - 09/12/2010 06:10:23 AM 924 Views
hrmm - 09/12/2010 07:52:08 AM 905 Views
Elayne rantage - 09/12/2010 11:46:29 AM 893 Views
*raises hand* - 09/12/2010 09:41:47 PM 847 Views
Hm, I don't think so... - 09/12/2010 10:47:38 PM 897 Views
Oddly enough, I'd say that the WOMEN all seem to be cut from the same cloth - 09/12/2010 03:10:43 PM 896 Views
Besides - 09/12/2010 03:40:06 PM 831 Views
Re: Serious ramblings about WOT - 09/12/2010 04:42:47 PM 938 Views
Re: Serious ramblings about WOT - 22/12/2010 07:01:17 AM 1120 Views
Excellent post - 22/12/2010 04:29:38 PM 760 Views
Hear, hear. *NM* - 23/12/2010 03:02:57 AM 386 Views
Just want to agree with you re: Egwene/Elayne. - 22/12/2010 03:40:39 PM 993 Views

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