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Re: Serious ramblings about WOT Andreas Sedai Send a noteboard - 09/12/2010 06:40:09 AM
Joline et al. have no power over Mat. It's him who saves them and him who pays for their travel from his own pocket, IIRC. He didn't have to do any of this. If they don't want to travel with him they are perfectly welcome to go on their own. And most AS might be old but they often behave very childishly. They have even less right of bossing Mat around than him them, yet that doesn't stop them from trying again and again. Are they men-haters then?
I wasn't saying that Joline et al. has any formal power over Mat, just that they are women of power. To argue that Mat has a right to boss the Aes Sedai around as he wishes must be a right you give to Mat because you like him. If it had been Egeanin that provided the money and she therefore bossed Mat around like he did the Aes Sedai, you would hate her and call her unreasonable, I'm sure. Mat is a supremely lucky 20-year-old with memories that make him a tactical genius, and money he has mostly won on gambling. That doesn't mean he should just boss around a bunch of highly experienced 100+ year-olds. Reason with them, yes, and discuss with them, but he attempts no such thing. He just walks right over them and gets annoyed by their few attempts to aid and get information for themselves, even if he refuses to reason with them in any lengthy, respectful discussion. We see all the Aes Sedai in Mat's company mostly through his lenses, and some from Tuon -- not exactly fair witnesses. Neither of them ever gives the Aes Sedai any chance to behave as anything other than children.

And yes, many women in WoT, Aes Sedai in particular, seems to be very demeaning to other people, and men in particular. Teslyn, as a red, is probably in the beginning a pure man-hater. However, she grows by the experience, obviously. Teslyn in ToM might be something that breaks Mats general misogynicism, but she also has to figuratively bow to him first, so it is uncertain to me if one can count it. She grows, but I am not sure Mat has, yet.

Also, Mat Mat doesn't respect any nobles, not just the female ones and Aes Sedai. You can call him rude but misogynistic? He is a friend to Birgitte, the three Aes Sedai he saves come to like him by the time they part ways, he respects Elayne enough to offer her and not Rand the plans for the dragons, he bows down to Egwene to help her gain political capital, heck he even ended up liking Tylin, even though she practically raped him. As for his closest friends - both in real life and in WoT most people's best friends are from their own gender. Might as well claim Perrin is misogynist and Egwene, Elayne and Nynaeve are misandrists, then, if a lack of friends fro mthe opposite sex is an indication.
He has a healthy dose of dislike for nobles in general, but he has a amiable relationship to men of power, among them officers like Guybon and a Prince like Beslan, and -- I'm sure -- others throughout the series without actually having the time to check for them now. His treatment of Egwene was not exactly respectful, and she was being bullied by yet more, in his view, powerful women that he could vex by bowing to her. In private he was severely disrespectful to her.

Tylin -- I thought when she was introduced -- was the female Mat. She was, I thought, supposed to teach Mat -- by doing the same to him -- that he was disrespectful to women by just thinking of them as items with "bosoms" and "bottoms." I learnt as I kept reading, however, that such was not the case and her narrative importance seems to be as a pretty sex-partner for Mat that he had to avenge, like the knight in shining armor that only he can be. She is not an exception to Mat's demeaning attitude towards women, she is more like Mat as a woman. And Mat -- of course -- took no notice to the lesson he should have learned. I guess I mistakenly assumed Jordan wrote something more progressive than I should have. At least readers can take that lesson if observant, even if it might be unintended.

The reason he offers Elayne the Dragons and not Rand, is that she was nearer and had access to the necessary resources and it needed to be done as soon as possible. Plus, Elayne needed them. It was a narrative imperative, given that the author wants Elayne to be more powerful, as a counter to the Seanchan.

Of course, there is one exception to this pattern, namely Birgitte. But I imagine that is due to the particular nature of Birgitte, and her awe-inspiring and "manly" nature, not due to any growth in Mat's character. She is -- like Tylin, only not as directly to Mat in particular -- a bit like a female Mat.

And I am not claiming he is misogynist because he has no female friends. He just doesn't respect women. There are degrees of human social behavior between "friend" and "disrespectful." I think they can even be combined to a certain degree if the disrespected party is humble. Anyway, to contrast it to another character: Perrin is quite respectful to Egwene when they are lost after the battle at Shadar Logoth. He also has a amiable and (mutually) respectful relationship to Aes Sedai and Wise Ones in his camp. And Alliandre, Elayne, Morgase, and even Berelain. And after a few mutual start-up problems with Faile, their relationship is probably the healthiest in the WoT-universe. Mat would have thought of all of them as a combination of "bosoms and bottoms", annoyances and tools that should just do what he says and shut up. He would have discussed the "important things" with Gallenne and the-other-commander-that-I-don't-remember-the-name-of, and expected the women to stay away, make trouble anyway and hopefully make some dinner or something. Women are objects to mat, either for viewing pleasure, sex, aid or annoyances -- to Perrin and other adults they are people, like men.

As for Galad - he hasn't given any indication he wants to step down from his position as a leader of the Whitecloaks, so this is all a moot point. Not to mention his strict morality will most likely earn him a dagger in the back in the political climate in Cairhien...
Well, he would still probably be a better king than spoiled and erratic Elayne would be queen in an actual feudal setting. And my point is just that Elayne has no reason to believe she would be the best and rightful queen of Cairhien other than her own arrogance.
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Serious ramblings about WOT - 09/12/2010 04:10:05 AM 2010 Views
Re: Serious ramblings about WOT - 09/12/2010 04:26:52 AM 1107 Views
Re: Serious ramblings about WOT - 09/12/2010 04:44:47 AM 1089 Views
Re: Serious ramblings about WOT - 09/12/2010 05:15:12 AM 1013 Views
Re: Serious ramblings about WOT - 09/12/2010 06:40:09 AM 1050 Views
Re: Serious ramblings about WOT - 09/12/2010 01:50:51 PM 920 Views
It's more that Mat doesn't like to be bossed around by ANYONE - 09/12/2010 03:28:53 PM 784 Views
Re: Serious ramblings about WOT - 09/12/2010 05:36:51 PM 1100 Views
Mat respects the women who give him a reason to respect them - 09/12/2010 06:48:53 PM 929 Views
Tylin raped Mat. *NM* - 09/12/2010 09:23:00 PM 1157 Views
Way off - 23/12/2010 12:03:03 PM 851 Views
Er... why should she go to such effort for Galad? - 09/12/2010 03:20:31 PM 1000 Views
Pretty much. - 10/12/2010 09:59:07 PM 978 Views
Very interesting. - 09/12/2010 05:50:23 AM 1139 Views
Re: Very interesting. - 09/12/2010 07:26:04 AM 891 Views
Re: Very interesting. - 09/12/2010 07:27:06 AM 949 Views
Re: Very interesting. - 09/12/2010 08:15:02 AM 1535 Views
Well - 09/12/2010 06:10:23 AM 936 Views
hrmm - 09/12/2010 07:52:08 AM 916 Views
Elayne rantage - 09/12/2010 11:46:29 AM 911 Views
*raises hand* - 09/12/2010 09:41:47 PM 864 Views
Hm, I don't think so... - 09/12/2010 10:47:38 PM 911 Views
Oddly enough, I'd say that the WOMEN all seem to be cut from the same cloth - 09/12/2010 03:10:43 PM 909 Views
Besides - 09/12/2010 03:40:06 PM 844 Views
Re: Serious ramblings about WOT - 09/12/2010 04:42:47 PM 951 Views
Re: Serious ramblings about WOT - 22/12/2010 07:01:17 AM 1136 Views
Excellent post - 22/12/2010 04:29:38 PM 775 Views
Hear, hear. *NM* - 23/12/2010 03:02:57 AM 393 Views
Just want to agree with you re: Egwene/Elayne. - 22/12/2010 03:40:39 PM 1006 Views

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