Re: AOL training & Rand's powers as the DR are 2 different things IMHO
Datakim Send a noteboard - 16/11/2010 07:19:19 PM
No, she didn't have the angreal when she first attacked. Lanfear was described as creating a firestorm or a raging inferno that was centered on her,yes, but she also created arrows of flame that fell from the air killing many of the Aiel at the same time as the Shadowspawn attacked from the flank. As I said, she had to walk through the camp, killing everybody in her way to make it to the wagon.
I had to go and re-read this.
First of all, Lanfear never had to walk through the camp as you say. She was already at the wagons. She used her disguise as Keille to go see Kadere. No one knew who she was so there was no fighting there. She only went berserk, when Kadere told her that Rand had had sex with Aviendha. This happened INSIDE Kaderes wagon btw. Infact once the fighting started, Lanfear barely moved at all. She only took a few steps backwards once Rand tried to move forward to attack her physically.
Second. While Lanfear does kill quite a few, it is nothing like what Rand did. There was no army there, only random Aiel walking around with no idea that there would be danger. Infact, most of them would have been gathering elsewhere for Rand's planned attack against Rahvin. I admit that yes, Lanfears attack was impressive. Lanfear does summon flame, and even creates arrows of it (perhaps the same weave that LTT used), but based on the description I doubt she kills all that many. Her attack is also easily dealt with by Rand who counters her quickly with a barrier that blocks her flames. I might be biased since I think what she did was far inferior to Rands attack, but the way it reads does not really seem to match the description of Rand destorying the trollocs. I would go so far infact to say that some of the stronger asha'man such as Logain could easily have done what she did.
Third, You might be right about whether or not Lanfear had her angreal at the time. It is mentioned that Moiraine put it on the wagon of the doorway, but nowhere is it mentioned that she picks it up. She could have picked it up while she was going to see Kadere in her disguise, in which case she would have had it all the time. The fact that she was still able to dominate Rand so easily, despite the fact that Rand DID have his angreal all the time might be a clue that Lanfear already had hers. On the other hand, she might have picked it up during her fight with Rand, and it was simply not mentioned that she picked it up. The first time we see the angreal, is from Moiraines POV where she sees that Lanfear has the angreal, and thinks that Lanfear should be able to crush Rand easily unless he has his own angreal aswell.
Infact, the fact that according to the finns Lanfears angreal is virtually a sa'angreal, while Rand's angreal was pretty weak actually speaks pretty poorly of Lanfear here.
I didn't say Lanfear came close to what Rand did - I said she killed hundreds or thousands of Aiel in seconds or a few minutes. My point was Lanfear appeared and wove in such a way that she was killing hundreds of opponents very quickly (i.e. she used techniques that used her skill & strength to the utmost destructive potential).
Oh sure, I agree that she killed dozens of people in only a second or so. The thing is, that is something any powerfull channeler could do. Just from the top of my head I can recall Rand believing that Taim could do much like Lanfear did, killing everyone around him if he wished. And since this was Rand's view, whether Taim is somehow linked to AoL or not is irrelevant.
If you read my post, I don't compare the numbers nor do I say she came close to what he did - my point was that the Forsaken know techniques that allow them to destroy very large forces very quickly. Compared to the Aes Sedai of the White Tower and the Ashaman, this is a level of lethality we've never seen demonstrated by anyone except Rand.
I would disagree. The Asha'man are easily as lethal to the Shaido during Dumai's wells. Maybe even more so. Granted, there were several of them while Lanfear was alone. But the fact that Lanfear is very powerfull was never in question. I just don't believe that even Lanfears strength could have been sufficient to destroy a massive army like Rand did. An army that Ituralde says could not be stopped by anything they had and which would totally devastate Arad Doman. Lanfear was powerfull, but buddha!Rand is on another level entirely I think.
If Lanfear could be thought of as an Inter-Continental Ballistic Missile and Rand was an atom bomb, both are very destructive and powerful, but the latter is much more powerful. That doesn't make the former any less potent.
Except that Lanfear and LTT should be very close in ability, with LTT maybe having some edge. Lanfear was as powerfull as a woman could be, and apparently the strength advantage that LTT would have had would be countered by dexterity advantage of Lanfear as a woman. And yet, despite that, even you admit that the new Rand was much more powerfull. Which was ofcourse the point all along. Lanfear is extremely lethal, as are the other AoL forsaken. But Rand has become SO powerfull that he has jumped to another level entirely, somehow.
In regards to Semirhage, she not only had to kill the Empress, but she also had to eliminate every possible member of the Blood that could take her place. Tuon implied that she had multiple siblings and in addition, family members, extended family members and members of the Blood who were raised to high station but not in the direct line of succession. In addition, there would have been hundreds of Deathwatch Guards, sul'dam/damane pairs and other forces guarding the Empress. The situation that was described to us was that this wasn't a surgical assassination - there seemed to have been a mass-murder of all the highest ranking nobles, leading to the collapse of centralized authority.
I disagree here too. Yes, she killed many more than just the empress, but again this would not have required anything truly spectacular. All Semirhage would have needed, would be the ability to travel which she had, the ability to kill quickly which any strong channeler can do and the locations of all the members of the imperial family, and given that there are darkfriends in Seanchan, and the fact that Semirhage is an expert interrogator, that would not be a problem.
Basically, all Semirhage would have needed to do was travel to the throneroom where the empress was using a reversed gateway, strike her down and leave. Then instantly open another gateway to where she knew the next member of the family was and repeat the process. Since the Seanchan back in their continent did not even KNOW what traveling was, Semirhage could have killed every single relative of the empress in very few moments. By the time the deathwatch guard recovered from the shock and even tried to arrange someekind of resistance, it would all be over. Rand actually plans to do something similar in tGS, traveling from place to place in rapid succession, striking instantly and then leaving before anyone had a chance to react. This kind of technique could have been used by anyone who knew the necessary weaves (traveling, reversing, information about locations).
That is an unfair comparison - Rand didn't have all of the memories from his past life at the mansion; he was relying entirely on his own knowledge and a few tricks that bubbled up from his memories. The Rand that fought at the mansion was a different Rand from the one in TGS.
It was actually LTT in Rand's head that did the channeling in the mansion, and he used weaves and techniques that Rand did NOT know. And infact, Rand uses some of the same things (deathgates) during the trolloc attack, implying that LTT at the time used nearly all of his skill. And Naeff would have seen it. And yet he still thinks that what buddha!Rand does is something else completely.
And we haven't seen any Forsaken actually in a combat situation requiring them to destroy his army - in fact, if you recall their reactions to his ground forces, some of them were surprised, but noone expressed that his military forces were anything but an inconvenience. The only Forsaken that went directly against Rands' forces was a strategist noted for his defensive tactics, and the other Forsaken that encountered Rand on the battlefield ignored his forces for the most part and concentrated on him. With the exception of Lanfear, and the implications of Semirhages' rampage, we simply haven't seen what they can do against conventional forces.
It simply makes little logical sense that the shadow would be breeding this massively huge army of trollocs to counter the light, if the forsaken could so easily match Rand's feat and singlehandedly blow up all of the lights forces. It is not a case of forsaken being weak, its just that something has caused Rand to grow into something beyond an ordinary channeler.
IMHO the skill and training of the channelers from the Age of Legends and Rand's powers as the Dragon Reborn are different but they build on one another.
Oh I don't deny that Rand's LTT knowledge from AoL helped, I just don't think that that knowledge ALONE would have allowed him to do what he did.
Admittedly all I said in regards to his DR powers was that they inspired the Lightsiders, but this is because I don't think these Lightside Powers are combative - I think the combat weaves he used came from his expertise with the One Power but the halo of light surrounding him and the feelings he aroused in the onlookers was a thing of the Creator. He may have used this connection to become a living conduit of the One Power, thus rather than his strength being the determining factor for how many weaves you could perform, the only limit that applied was how long he could keep this up before exhausting himself. Combining his DR powers with his channeling expertise from his AOL training is what made him so powerful in that scene. So if a Forsaken saw that, I think they would have been as amazed as the onlooking Ashaman were.
Which is the point. Rand did something beyond ordinary channeling. Something unique that only he could now do, something even LTT could not have done in the AoL. We don't know what it was exactly. Ituralde mentions that Rand's attack left all the fortifications unharmed so maybe Rand somehow imbued his attacks with somekind of light-based anti-shadow attacks which were extremely deadly only to the trollocs. Or maybe Rand now has some bizarre connection to the OP that others lack. It just occurred to me that Rand's children with Aviendha have something like that, in her vision. We don't know what was going on exactly, but it WAS something more than just merely LTT being skilled.
A thought Re Rands sudden new strength in the Power
14/11/2010 04:53:33 AM
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There could be something to that.
14/11/2010 05:51:57 AM
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Disagree, he was defininitely referring to the TP given the context. *NM*
28/11/2010 01:44:25 PM
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Re: A thought Re Rands sudden new strength in the Power
14/11/2010 07:30:21 AM
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^ this. The One Power is the creator's. We know of treesinging, so Rand making things grow isn't
14/11/2010 09:43:57 AM
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OP == CP
14/11/2010 04:42:59 PM
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Yes. And I honestly just thought that this was b/c Rand had access to Lews Therins' training & skill
15/11/2010 03:43:04 PM
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Re: Yes. And I honestly just thought that this was b/c Rand had access to Lews Therins' training
15/11/2010 10:14:43 PM
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AOL training & Rand's powers as the DR are 2 different things IMHO
16/11/2010 04:06:26 PM
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Re: AOL training & Rand's powers as the DR are 2 different things IMHO
16/11/2010 07:19:19 PM
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Re: AOL training & Rand's powers as the DR are 2 different things IMHO
16/11/2010 10:42:06 PM
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My first thought was that he had a Sa' angreal. Simple easy answer. *NM*
14/11/2010 06:23:12 PM
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