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Re: He's special the same way any individual is special. Sidious Send a noteboard - 15/09/2009 08:36:20 AM

RJ did say the Guide was written from the standpoint of a scholar so there is a lot of material that you can't take as irrefutable truth. A nice way to get out of giving the readers too much info in my opinion - it gave him a nice escape hatch.

I mean, technically, if we want to talk about his "unparalleled" power in the Shadow, it's pretty hard to reconcile this with his defeats by a barely trained farmboy, even if said farmboy has the reborn soul of his ancient enemy. I'm sorry, but I get the feeling that Ishamael's reputation is vastly undeserved. He's a thinker - not a fighter. And in a war, it's no surprise that A) He never held a field command and B) He was defeated each time he confronted his "nemesis" in battle, despite having more advantages. The only thing we are absolutely sure he is superior to the other Forsaken in, is his insanity. Otherwise, he's not much to speak of.


Well I differ from you here. I think that Ishamael's power is well established as a duelist. On most occasions he was trying to convert Rand rather than kill him, and that has nothing to do with combat. I think he's the worst converter to the Shadow I've ever seen, but that was his tactic.

When he finally decided to kill Rand in TDR, he tells him he's given him two chances to convert and he refused, and now he will die. Ishamael then hurled everything from balefire, to every other kind of weave at Rand in the Stone, and Rand was only saved by using one of the most powerful sa'angreal ever made. I thought that of all the Forsaken battles, this one was the most technically impressive, but it looks like he literally tried every flow against Rand to find his weakness.

It's also important to remember that his nemesis is an extremely powerful ta'veren who bends the pattern around him. I'm not sure if such a man actually can be beaten. Even so, I don't think it's a coincidence that Ishamael was the one to fight Lews Therin in a duel in the War of Power. Otherwise it would have been Demandred or Lanfear if the Shadow had someone better.

I don't think so - I tend to think that the term "greatest of the Age" itself is so loaded with subjective judgements that it is a little ridiculous. He's greater than the greatest Healers? By virtue of what? Or does this means he's a great orator or leader? It's never really expressed. This is somewhat like claiming Time Magazine's "Person of the Year" is grounded in objective measurements, when it really is Time's overall opinion ie: subjective judgement. I don't buy it. It's a little too hokey for me, and devalues the series IMO.


Well the Power is a funny thing - it actually is one discipline even if there are many Talents. He was certainly an exceptionally strong and gifted channeler. There were probably a few hundred channelers on his level, and many thousands with special abilities he didn't have. But he was made First among Servants because he was so powerful and because he was a nice guy. Even Moghedien and Be'lal hated that about him.
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The top 6 Forsaken - similar in the One Power - 12/09/2009 09:27:20 PM 1682 Views
Some thoughts about Semmy - 12/09/2009 09:59:50 PM 855 Views
Re: Some thoughts about Semmy - 13/09/2009 08:33:28 AM 909 Views
Of course... - 13/09/2009 08:36:39 AM 717 Views
I've been thinking the same for years - 12/09/2009 11:25:02 PM 817 Views
The Big White Book says... - 12/09/2009 11:46:43 PM 882 Views
Not Aginor - 13/09/2009 08:36:37 AM 883 Views
Re: Not Aginor - 13/09/2009 03:16:13 PM 778 Views
Re: Not Aginor - 13/09/2009 05:47:14 PM 814 Views
Fact is, the bwb is untrustworthy - 13/09/2009 05:54:28 PM 741 Views
We must either use all the quotes from the BWB or none of them - 13/09/2009 06:07:46 PM 797 Views
Or... - 13/09/2009 08:41:23 PM 722 Views
Re: Or... - 14/09/2009 04:46:52 AM 697 Views
But, RJ himself said that the BWB was written from the standpoint of a scholar - 14/09/2009 04:42:59 PM 715 Views
Re: Not Aginor - 13/09/2009 08:17:28 PM 687 Views
It all depends on how you define "powerful" - 14/09/2009 02:30:31 AM 825 Views
I agree 101%. *NM* - 14/09/2009 03:49:51 AM 423 Views
I think power is much more than raw strength - 14/09/2009 05:00:10 AM 698 Views
I agree for the most part, but disagree on one thing. - 14/09/2009 07:52:10 PM 821 Views
Re: The top 6 Forsaken - similar in the One Power - 12/09/2009 11:48:03 PM 751 Views
the other reason - 13/09/2009 03:24:24 PM 676 Views
So is graendal similar to lanfear then? - 13/09/2009 05:41:42 PM 693 Views
Graendal could fight Lanfear and win - 13/09/2009 06:01:57 PM 1228 Views
Graendal herself says... - 13/09/2009 09:08:46 PM 714 Views
Re: Graendal herself says... - 14/09/2009 04:48:37 AM 728 Views
Doesn't Graendal have an Angreal now? - 17/09/2009 03:29:10 AM 743 Views
Re: Graendal herself says... - 15/09/2009 05:36:53 PM 614 Views
Lanfear was more powerful than Graendal, but Cyndane has less power - 13/09/2009 10:19:35 PM 691 Views
Re: So is graendal similar to lanfear then? - 13/09/2009 06:05:11 PM 826 Views
I agree with this - 13/09/2009 06:15:24 PM 846 Views
Compulsion=any other deadly weave. Doesn't really change matters - 13/09/2009 10:23:40 PM 694 Views
Excellent point *NM* - 13/09/2009 10:35:08 PM 433 Views
But it did give her an edge, and against two forsaken. *NM* - 13/09/2009 11:12:09 PM 404 Views
Hm? When? *NM* - 14/09/2009 09:04:10 PM 334 Views
tPoD, when she compelled Cyndane and Moghedien. *NM* - 14/09/2009 10:19:23 PM 386 Views
Not at all - 14/09/2009 04:51:48 AM 769 Views
Using Compulsion on someone doesn't seem mechanically different - 14/09/2009 09:03:41 PM 612 Views
I'm not so sure about that - 14/09/2009 09:36:45 PM 714 Views
Totally agree - 14/09/2009 10:26:07 PM 516 Views
I don't agree. - 15/09/2009 04:33:04 PM 831 Views
Re: So is graendal similar to lanfear then? - 14/09/2009 04:34:24 PM 669 Views
But Graendal confronted her... twice! *NM* - 13/09/2009 07:48:29 PM 363 Views
Apparently only the third time counts *NM* - 13/09/2009 08:00:37 PM 390 Views
Really? - 13/09/2009 08:36:33 PM 679 Views
No falsely... - 13/09/2009 11:25:40 PM 890 Views
That's pretty much my opinion in a nutshell - 14/09/2009 04:56:15 AM 831 Views
And, of course, the male and female OP strength ranks might not even correlate that much - 14/09/2009 04:41:58 PM 647 Views
They correlate on some critical points - 14/09/2009 06:57:43 PM 728 Views
That's not exactly what I'm referring to. - 15/09/2009 04:36:29 PM 596 Views
But then we are discussing the same thing - 15/09/2009 06:59:04 PM 738 Views
I think, outside of semantics, our main disagreement doesn't lie amid the higher tiers - 16/09/2009 03:53:09 PM 613 Views
Probably - 16/09/2009 06:31:27 PM 746 Views
Re: Probably - 16/09/2009 07:19:03 PM 718 Views
Re: Probably - 16/09/2009 08:59:31 PM 670 Views
Re: Probably - 18/09/2009 07:03:09 PM 1004 Views
Ahh the old debate... - 17/09/2009 12:42:36 AM 687 Views
Re: Ahh the old debate... - 17/09/2009 05:26:52 AM 630 Views
I only disagree on one point, I think they are all rather equal in potential, incl. Ishamael - 14/09/2009 04:28:12 PM 690 Views
I do think Ishamel is special - 14/09/2009 07:04:03 PM 783 Views
He's special the same way any individual is special. - 14/09/2009 11:36:42 PM 737 Views
Re: He's special the same way any individual is special. - 15/09/2009 08:36:20 AM 723 Views
Re: He's special the same way any individual is special. - 15/09/2009 03:48:34 PM 707 Views
Re: He's special the same way any individual is special. - 15/09/2009 04:39:39 PM 681 Views
Re: He's special the same way any individual is special. - 15/09/2009 04:53:00 PM 670 Views
Re: He's special the same way any individual is special. - 15/09/2009 06:47:45 PM 661 Views
The more interesting question is... - 14/09/2009 06:34:11 PM 647 Views
Hmmm - 14/09/2009 07:04:34 PM 667 Views
I think we'll see Graendal vs. Aran'gar. - 14/09/2009 07:31:16 PM 741 Views
Ah yes, that makes sense, and would be great! *NM* - 14/09/2009 07:40:29 PM 530 Views
Yeah. Though I think its no competition. Graendal has got to be better than a walking tree! - 14/09/2009 07:50:09 PM 629 Views
They do imply that Graendal is a lot more dangerous than she looks - 14/09/2009 09:08:43 PM 658 Views
I've never underestimated Graendal - 14/09/2009 09:42:49 PM 690 Views
Yeah... her frivolity was always a red flag for me too. - 14/09/2009 10:18:40 PM 691 Views
To me, she is the most lethal. - 15/09/2009 05:18:10 PM 521 Views
Yup... - 15/09/2009 06:39:20 PM 567 Views
I still like Lanfear more - 15/09/2009 06:51:03 PM 645 Views
Bah! She's an idiot! - 15/09/2009 07:06:06 PM 661 Views
only in love *NM* - 15/09/2009 07:23:29 PM 639 Views
Graendal did not beat me and Moghedien - 15/09/2009 05:59:39 PM 729 Views
Agreed - 15/09/2009 06:36:48 PM 645 Views
Ummm... how do we know? - 15/09/2009 06:40:57 PM 788 Views
Re: Ummm... how do we know? - 15/09/2009 06:56:21 PM 685 Views
Hmmm... - 15/09/2009 07:07:45 PM 839 Views

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