Active Users:788 Time:15/11/2024 06:00:57 AM
No, sorry. Fanatic-Templar Send a noteboard - 14/11/2010 12:45:33 AM
Let's not, because it's the very same explanation for Egwene's dream. You still confuse the images in prophecies (which are not necessarily from the future) and the purpose of the prophecies, that tell things about the future, even when they use the past to represent, symbolize or explain what's coming....

Even less than Viewings, dreams always use images of the future as its symbols. Most often so far, the scenes Egwene saw in Dream were allegories, predicting a possible future, but in a symbolic way. Min's Viewing was about the importance of Lan's Oaths taken on his craddle and how this destiny would play out. This was still important for his future, KOD, TGS and TOM have made it abundantly clear. Baby Lan was just an image, a symbol - the Viewing was about the relevance of these oaths to his future. He would fulfill them.


To accept this would be to remove all meaning from the distinction between past, present and future - and while in the circular time of the Wheel, that might be acceptable to an extent, it is not here. To define it as a vision "of the future" we need to be able to contrast it with what it is not - a vision of the past, or a vision of the present, one of them at least.

So you say Min's Viewing is about the future because the oaths are relevant to Lan's future. Well, let's use that definition then. Have Lan's oaths been relevant to his past? Obviously. So you would agree that it is a vision of the past then? Were Lan's oaths relevant to the then present? I'm pretty sure they were, so that would also make the Viewing a vision of the present, wouldn't it?

So how can you take a vision of the past, present and future and call it "a vision of the future"? To me that's like pointing at a rainbow and saying "it is red". Just because red is a colour in that rainbow doesn't make the sentence true.

Besides, Min's Viewings usually represent a change, an event, something like that. If it is a Viewing about Lan's oaths, and I agree that it is, then it is a Viewing of Lan taking those oaths, a vision of the past. Even if it is a past event that will have repercussions for the future, it is still a past event.

As for Egwene's dream it showed her what has already happened to some of the Towers, so she understood what the Towers represented.

The dream showed the rise and fall, victories and defeats of many Forsaken, and the rise of Moridin as the central threat, but it wasn't its purpose, why Egwene had this dream. Egwene's intuitively interpreted some of it (and knew it wasn't the whole meaning). That dream came to her as a warning that Mesaana survived, and that it was very important that Egwene dealt with her, or something terrible would happen to the Tower soon (hint, hint: the Seanchan are about to bring full war to Tar Valon.. had Mesaana not fell, she would have used this to achieve her final goals). I don't think the Towers of Midnight represented only the Forsaken in that dream. The symbols were merged with the Forsaken and their number, to represent their association to the Seanchan. Primarly, the Towers represented the Seanchan Empire through a symbol of Paendrag imperial power, and the power of the Shadow, of the six remaining Forsaken, behind the Seanchan (the key is in the Wind scene opening the book, really). The Shadow still counted on the Seanchan dealing with the Tower and fighting Rand during the LB. Mesaana still planned the White Tower destruction - and Demandred most likely counted on her succeess. Moridin still does count on the Seanchan and the Westlands not forming an alliance, and fighting one another. He told Graendal the alliance must not happen, that she had to make it fail. The other meaning of the dream is that if the Shadow succeeds, the power of the Seanchan will keep crumbling in its fight against the Westlands and the Shadow. The fallen towers also represents the erosion of imperial power, the war that has plunged Seanchan itself in chaos (the central tower, faltering than rising higher, primarly represent the downfall of Radhanan, the destruction of the Paendrag line and how it shook the Empire toi the core.. and the rise of Fortuona like a Phoenix, higher and higher). . As for the Forsaken allegory bit, the fall of the central Tower possibly didn't even represent the death of Ishamael, but rather his failure at Falme, when the Seanchan invasion was pushed back.

The part of the dream Egwene understood is that she had to deal with Mesaana. She doesn't know about the Towers of Midnight in Seanchan, she has not identified the terrible threat that would become a disaster if she had not dealt with Mesaana yet when it came. She's not puzzled out either than behind Mesaana there's Moridin, who controls all the living Chosen, and has been involved behind the Seanchan for nearly a millenia... By bringing down Mesaana, Egwene simply removed Moridin' best asset to still achieve the destruction of TV, at a delicate juncture. By understanding she had to remove Mesaana, and succeeding, Egwene may well have opened a very important door, made possible new choices that will eventually lead to the resolution of the WT-Seanchan conflict during TG, and which save both Empire and the White Tower, and let them ally to serve the Light against the common enemy that threanted both.

Those two dreams are terribly important. They showed Egwene the next two main issues she's about to deal with: the seals and Rand's plan, and the Shadow behind the Seanchan. The Seanchan/Forsaken dream is a new warning, because she's failed before and rejected the solution the Wheel has shown her before: she's fled from her Dream showing the Seanchan woman and her must ally and help each other, to reach the top of the mountain, above the cloud cover that hides the Light....


That's very interesting, and I suspect that you are correct, but you do agree that the crumbling/rebuilt tower is not about Graendal, right? :P
The first rule of being a ninja is "do no harm". Unless you intend to do harm, then do lots of harm.
~Master Splinter

Victorious in Bergioyn's legendary 'Reverse Mafia'. *MySmiley*
Reply to message
So, what was the point of survival? - 11/11/2010 08:03:59 AM 1815 Views
RtdB! - 11/11/2010 08:37:50 AM 1141 Views
I don't know if that would make it better or worse. - 11/11/2010 09:09:06 AM 1173 Views
Yep - 11/11/2010 01:31:28 PM 889 Views
Re: I don't know if that would make it better or worse. - 11/11/2010 07:11:45 PM 921 Views
Re: I don't know if that would make it better or worse. - 11/11/2010 08:12:52 PM 947 Views
Why Galad? - 12/11/2010 12:10:56 AM 966 Views
Re: RtdB! - 11/11/2010 02:36:21 PM 931 Views
It allowed an idiotic plot twist. - 11/11/2010 12:17:24 PM 1301 Views
I don't understand protests like this - 11/11/2010 05:33:12 PM 878 Views
Because we are told that this was her plot, but we are never shown. - 11/11/2010 07:09:48 PM 950 Views
She knew success was critical yet didn't step in at all? - 11/11/2010 10:40:26 PM 824 Views
She didn't even send in her channeler. - 12/11/2010 02:35:02 AM 798 Views
Yeah, but her plan was so lame it kinda ruined her character - 13/11/2010 08:26:34 PM 756 Views
Why having other Forsaken at all? Slayer and Moridin should've been enough. *NM* - 11/11/2010 11:33:04 PM 453 Views
Exactly. *NM* - 12/11/2010 02:35:34 AM 370 Views
She might be the Tower that crumbles and regrows - 12/11/2010 03:48:13 AM 807 Views
That pretty much assuredly refers to Moridin. - 12/11/2010 03:55:48 AM 757 Views
Aren't dreams about the future? Moridin's death and rise have already happened. *NM* - 12/11/2010 04:10:34 AM 396 Views
Are they? - 12/11/2010 04:19:50 AM 705 Views
Re: Are they? - 12/11/2010 04:28:29 AM 781 Views
They are.... - 13/11/2010 02:32:26 PM 800 Views
No, sorry. - 14/11/2010 12:45:33 AM 850 Views
The point of Graendal's survival was ... - 13/11/2010 02:30:38 AM 813 Views
Sadly, I agree with you. - 16/11/2010 06:09:49 AM 869 Views

Reply to Message