Re: I don't know if that would make it better or worse.
DomA Send a noteboard - 11/11/2010 07:11:45 PM
I had understood "that idiot Whitecloak" to refer to Galad, who had kept the Whitecloaks from fighting Perrin and delayed Perrin falling into her ambush long enough for Perrin to be able to Travel out of there.
Or she was just frustrated that her ploy with Byar failed.
As I understand it, Byar was just a back-up/insurance policy. Perrin was to die in her ambush, killed in battle.
I totally disagree with Fionwe and agree with you the notion that Graendal had compelled Byar all the way back on Toman's Head in TGH doesn't work. That's a ridiculous suggestion. We've seen those scenes on-screen. Byar needed no convincing to see a plot in there, the second he saw Perrin. He was an overzealous fanatic who've hated Perrin at first sight in TEOTW.
Graendal has obviously compelled him during the timeline of TOM itself, when she put her plan in motion, and when she realized there was a second army there, and it was getting involved with Perrin. She must have looked into it to see if there was potential there to make the two armies clash. And yes, it's a sign of her understanding of the human mind - she's spotted the man close enough to Galad (someone too far stood little chance to meet Perrin) that would barely need a lick of Compulsion to do what she wanted. Graendal intends to remain hidden, the last thing she would have wanted was to risk attracting someone's attention to her compulsion. So she used the person closest to already be doing what she needed. She probably barely touched him, her weave remaining at a near undetectable level.
And the plan itself isn't "classic Graendal" indeed. There are logical explanations for this, though. First of all, Graendal doesn't want to give any sign that she still lives, and LTT knows her style. If she wants to play dead, she needs to show no sign there is a Graendal plot going on... she couldn't be sure Perrin and Rand would meet, or were not in contact. He had Asha'man with him.
Then, Graendal must be a bit shaken. Her "classic plans" in Arad Doman have fallen apart as Rand outwitted her. She thought she was safe, that she had every loose ends tied. And yet, she's lost almost everything. She barely managed to escape with her life.
Moridin refused to let her try again with Rand, and his displeasure (and through him the DO's) was very obvious. Graendal had to recuperate some ground in another way, . Proposing to deal with Perrin was a spur of the moment idea. She needed something to regain ground with Moridin and prove herself. She didn't have any time to plan this out, and she probably aware Moridin was in no mood to listen to convoluted plans and manipulations anyway. She came up with something direct, simple - and something Moridin wants done, and that the other Chosen have failed to deliver. It was also a plan with which failure was acceptable - Moridin doubted she would succeed. She knew this.
This wasn't a day to come up with convoluted plans to toy with Perrin, and have her usual fun. It was a time to show Moridin she was willing to take risks and go against a ta'veren, and with a simple plan. Graendal was making a statement that she can also be daring, ruthless and can get the job done. The woman badly, badly needed a quick and simple victory to overcome her recent failure with her complex schemes.
They didn't need a Forsaken in this storyline at all. Slayer could have handled the whole thing, and if you're right about Byar, no Forsaken would be needed either. Do you really think anybody would be surprised if Byar tried to kill Perrin without Forsaken influence? Heck, that's what I believe.
Well... things were supposed to spiral downward, so it was about time a Forsaken took a direct hand with Perrin and Mat. The time for games and indirect undermining had passed, so a straight plot to get Perrin killed makes sense. Adding Graendal to the mix added a bit of suspense, which was badly needed because of the book split, and losing the effect Rand's darkness would have cast over the whole thing. Knowing Rand will soon reach a spectacular epiphany diluted the problems Mat and Perrin faced. Another reason to have Graendal involved is that, obviously, Slayer has yet a role to play. With Graendal in charge, he escaped blame for his failure that caused Mesaana's demise.
Jordan clearly planned for Graendal to fall under Moridin's thumb completely. It's an open question if Jordan truly intended Graendal to oversee that plot around Perrin. My hunch says "no". I think it was a bit redundant, as we were told Cyndane and Moghedien already were trying to get Perrin and Mat killed. My guess is that this plot was to be handled by an "unseen" Forsaken (most likely Cyndane, who's been involved with Slayer before, and who has many motifs tying her to wolves and Perrin etc.). My feeling is that Graendal was meant to get herself punished after she got Aran'gar killed. Because of the book split, Brandon decided to use her for this instead of a foe that in the classic R way remained unseen and would never get revealed, and bring her differently to the same punishment. Jordan would not have needed this, because the four storylines would have run in parallel, and he already had Mesaana and Graendal heavily involved with Rand/Egwene. And yes, I think Jordan intended Byar just to snap, and try to kill Perrin in the battle. Graendal's compulsion kind of undermined this. I think Jordan intended to mirror Aram, who had been pushed by Masema who had been pushed by a Forsaken. Byar was the "real deal", the real rabid dog. His killing had a thematic purpose - Bornhald finally doing what his duty and dealing with the rabid WC, just before the WC finally joined Perrin. Asunawa's killing began it, Byar's killing ended the cleansing of the organization. Jordan didn't want it to come from the outside, like the Aes Sedai the WC had to clean their own backyard, and deal with the too fanatical elements. Having a Forsaken nudge Byar sort of cheapened it all, IMO.
So, what was the point of survival?
11/11/2010 08:03:59 AM
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RtdB!
11/11/2010 08:37:50 AM
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I don't know if that would make it better or worse.
11/11/2010 09:09:06 AM
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Re: I don't know if that would make it better or worse.
11/11/2010 07:11:45 PM
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No clue. Slayer could have done it on Moridin's orders. Not like Moridin hasn't failed before *NM*
11/11/2010 08:47:55 AM
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Maybe she got cocky after reading the Dark Prophecy.
11/11/2010 03:32:19 PM
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Although I agree with the survival being stupid, I think sanderson used it ...
11/11/2010 05:02:01 PM
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To make it possible for Sanderson to reveal Asmodean's killer outside the Glossary *NM*
11/11/2010 05:28:06 PM
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I don't understand protests like this
11/11/2010 05:33:12 PM
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Because we are told that this was her plot, but we are never shown.
11/11/2010 07:09:48 PM
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Why having other Forsaken at all? Slayer and Moridin should've been enough. *NM*
11/11/2010 11:33:04 PM
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She might be the Tower that crumbles and regrows
12/11/2010 03:48:13 AM
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That pretty much assuredly refers to Moridin.
12/11/2010 03:55:48 AM
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Aren't dreams about the future? Moridin's death and rise have already happened. *NM*
12/11/2010 04:10:34 AM
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