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For someone so vehement about the differences between B-Sand and KJA, you reference KA a lot. Cannoli Send a noteboard - 06/11/2010 02:32:33 PM
I could have written this
I have the same feelings at times. Though my writing would almost certainly have been poor and clunky and probably over-engineered and redundant enough to make people fling tGS out the nearest window in disgust less than halfway through, I really think I would have nailed the characters better. I think I would have produced an Egwene more satisfying to the Egwene fans (and I would certainly have been unable to resist shading her as I see her) than Sadnerson's versions of most of the characters were to serious readers in general.

I feel bad for saying this, Brandon is such a cool guy
Bah. He exists solely to service my WoT needs.

and it's obvious Team Jordan invested massive efforts in finishing the series properly (which salvages the enterprises from full disaster, somewhat - full disaster being for me that it would be written in such a poor way that it's impossible to get a good idea of what RJ originally intended), but objectively, TOM has to be one of the worst novels I've read in many years, and by a fair margin it's Brandon's worst published novel to date. Though it's not necessarily the truth (based on his previous book, it isn't), it reads like the work of a very average writer, with very poor understanding of dramatic structure and very bad planning of his novel, coupled with a lazy editor who let way, way too many major and minor problems slide.
This in particular. People make mistakes and someone has to backstop him. You would think the fact that he is a relative tyro handling such established material that was first published when he was in junior high school would have led to extra scrutiny by the editing people, from Harriet and Maria to the Tor staff.

Harriet certainly doesn't live up to her reputation with this one, and one wonders how people at Tor with the proper distance from the work itself didn't raise any red flag that the book still required a great deal of polishing to be in a publishable state.
I wonder how much of a damn they gave. In their position, I can envision people who don't give a damn, merely being content to pass RJs material along to the fans and rake in the money for facilitating a love affair they don't understand, like the proprietor of a no-tell motel. As for the Jordan people, if you are right on what you cite as RJ's strengths further down, maybe their function was more to be cheerleaders and sounding boards, rather than partners or collaborators. A lot of what RJ said on the subject of his ideas and inspirations and being an Old Testament god to his characters suggests WoT was extremely personal for him and came exclusively from him. Even if Harriet did contribute significantly to his work, I think their personal relationship came into play a lot there. Recall what he said about her ability to know when he had been writing certain characters and so on. I think it goes without saying that she and B-Sand never developed a working relationship on any sort of comparable level. Given RJ's presumptive ability to keep all the plots and so forth straight, and his innate understanding of the things he created and envisioned, maybe Maria, Harriet and even the more appreciative or involved publishing staff were used to perhaps making no more than cursory checks and editing efforts and trusting RJ. With habits like this formed over more than a decade of writing, it should not be surprising that they overlooked Sanderson's need for more involved participation on their parts. And who is to say a more collaborative arrangement would have been possible? For all we know, Sanderson is the kind of guy who does it all on his own with his books and would not have performed well or comfortably as the stenographer for Team Jordan.

There is also the process through which Sanderson was selected. All I have heard of that strikes me as rather appalling in the reasons and slipshod in the due diligence. Granted, WoT is hardly an issue on which lives and fortunes may rest, but the tale of Harriet being so moved by his eulogy that she offered him the job and approved him so quickly was horrifying.

I rather think he did the best he could and was simply the wrong writer for the task. Having never so much as heard his name before he was announced as the writer, I expected an author with a significant body of work, or work of appropriate complexity to WoT. I was shocked to find out how relatively little he had written, was dismayed to find how short and uncomplex his novels appeared at first glance in the book store, and was as close to tears as I have ever come in regards to WoT when I read the first couple of chapters of Mistborn. Your own defense of Sanderson when I posted some of my concerns on the MB reassured me, and his own accounts of his efforts have made me view him as less of a villain, but having read tGS, I no longer had any expectations for the remaining books. In some ways, I felt ToM was worse, despite material that I would certainly have enjoyed more than tGS even if both had been written by RJ, and though I don't have any literary analysis skills to speak of, I could see how many of the flaws were borne of the split in the books which RJ had never intended.

What Jordan had planned for AMOL, it becomes very apparent now, is a very gradual (and parallel) descent into darkness and despair in all the storylines, a fairly slow-building but necessary first act and a faster paced and very dark and intricate (in sheer amount of sub-plots coming together, and themes being echoed from one storyline to the next) second act that took things to the bottom of the well, and when all seemed doomed, suddenly climaxed with Rand's epiphany, that (thematically speaking) brought back the ray of light that would begin to break the deadlocks in the other storylines: Egwene won the Tower, Elayne and Mat got the dragons, Perrin found himself and allied with Galad, Aviendha got determined to bring radical changes to the Aiel etc.
A Memory of Light is probably going to seem like a silly title for book 14. I can see why Sanderson wanted to keep it for all three volunes with AMoL:tGS, AMoL:ToM and AMoL:Blabbity-blah making more sense. As it is, tGS describes the gathering and dispelling of the MAJOR storm, and aMoL will probably better detail the RETURN of light. A Memory of Light suggests darkness all but triumphant, when Rand has broken through all of that already, and everyone is coming together. That meeting might have been better too, if it had been established before Rand's change and so forth had really sunk in, so that it might have appeared to be the last ditch chance for everyone to avert the disaster Dark Rand might be bringing on them, only to have the reader share in their experience of Light Rand's conversion and changing their minds and gaining their faith and trust. Elayne's insistence on his goodness and so forth as felt through the warder bond (and its attendant effects on her surroundings) might have been more effective for the drama of the story and maybe giving their relationship some actual significance if her part was reduced, rather than fleshed out to fill a portion of an whole novel and set in a way that was not readily apparent to the readers who are also reading about St. Rand the Transfigured. If her experience (and Min's & Aviendha's, though they are out of contact with anyone else) through the bond is the sole bright spot and hope that anyone has of Rand's change, I think the whole picture changes a lot and the justification of his claims, or his bond-holders' willingness to place their faith in him no matter how bad things look to anyone (readers included) who have witnessed or experienced Dark Rand in action would have worked better if handled differently. As it is, Elayne's cheerful attitude to his changes and insistence on his goodness don't square with her intention to support Egwene in opposing him, however the confrontation will actually play out, and give me one more reason to question the whole purpose of their relationship (and I don't care about triple goddesses and the like - no one needed that in the story or would have missed it if it was absent and two more volumes than RJ wanted, both of which featured Rand interacting exclusively with Min undermines any "triple" aspect of his love life; as the series stands, Rand has one love interest and two odd working relationships with ex-flings, despite some creative chronology in the "ex" aspects).
As it is, we are going into the big meeting annoyed at the opposition and absurd contentions of characters that he is wrong and has to be convinced otherwise.

This was all to come after Rand's spectacular epiphany, and set the stage for the penultimate third act, yet to come for us. Tell these stories after Rand's epiphany, and they become undramatic and contribute nothing anymore to the build up of despair and darkness.
Yes. What I was getting at.

What we got instead is a complete dilution of Jordan's carefully planned first act (with obscure elements sometimes going back to his earliest books. He may have faltered in places mid-series, but he sure had been planning his finale very very well), for the most part ruined by showing Rand's epiphany (unexpected, at that juncture, as Jordan planned it as a descent into madness and darkness, with a very sudden rebound once Rand hit the bottom of the barrel. and which came as a dramatic plot twist when we'd expect Rand to do something disastrous at that point) way too soon. Without the two "darker" descents, Rand's and Egwene's, running in parallel, the storylines of Perrin and Mat appear almost trivial, and very unbalanced dramatically (which wouldn't have been the case with Jordan's structure, Mat coming as a kind of comic relief during very dark acts one and two - though for sure Jordan didn't plan to deprive Mat of all his newfound gravity and darkness shown
I like to think Hinderstap & Ghenji might have contributed to this. Rather than the overt comic relief, I think Mat might instead have provided a kind of layman's view of the horrors, rather than a part of them as Rand and Egwene were. Mat would have been the one to really articulate how bad the world of WoT was sinking.
Egwene might have been better told as a sort of voice of sanity as the Tower descends into unreasoned conflict and viciousness getting out of hand, or as a participant in the in-fighting and strife, giving HER an epiphany at the end as well. I think her extraction following the Seanchan raid was intended to involve more than saving her from (by then non-existent) physical danger, but rather saving her from herself, and what the Tower strife had done to her. Siuan & Gawyn would have pulled her free to give her a chance to see what the whole sordid mess had turned into, her subsequent decision to invade Tar Valon been made to seem more tragic and more in the nature of lancing a sore or excising a cancer than Sanderson bothered to play it. The hints and preliminary notes were there, but he didn't really develop them much or make them explicit enough in the time he gave to that. Then her acceptance as Amyrlin by her former enemies might have been seen as a similar bright spot in parallel with Rand's epiphany. Just as his brief experience of the Seanchan rule and the Seanchan-approved charity of the Tinkers, contrasted with his own self-loathing, sparked the epiphany in Rand and led to his choice to spare the world, so the restoration of sanity to the Tower and the submission of the loyalists might have worked a similar conversion in Egwene.

in KOD to make him a caricature of his EOTW-TGH self, and Perrin remaining more or less in control despite problems contrasted how Egwene and Rand barely had any control on events around them anymore). With Rand going mad and nearly falling to the Shadow - with little hope of a plot twist to change this anytime soon, Perrin's situation would have looked far more dramatic.
And highlighted the fact that Rand and Egwene WERE out of control and even Mat, while in authority in his group, was navigating a mess of horrors.
Even a detail like the fact Tam (his best "general";) was snatched away was dramatic, when Perrin might be about to face battle (and a good example of Sanderson's complete lack of flair is how it overlooked this, and not only Tam didn't worry about leaving Perrin at that delicate juncture, but in TGS we got a Polyannesque Tam who seemed to think the one thing to tell Rand was of his amazement that Morgase was alive and with Perrin...)
That revelation might actually have been mandated by RJ. It would have been one of those sparks that helped re-kindle Rand's light. The news of her death was the catalyst for a lot, after all. It set in motion Moiraine's plans that led to her disappearance, and in such close proximity to Moiraine's death, no doubt contributed to Rand's subsequent angst. While Moiraine's death got all the attention (mostly because Morgase was not so important to the readers and her death merely freed up the throne for her daughter who was fast rising in significance as a character, while motivating another battle/conquest for Rand, bringing him to the apex of his worldly power and superficial coolness), it resulted from Morgase's, which also had a significant contribution to Rand's self-loathing and rejection of love, since the one woman who had openly showed interest in him had lost her mother to his failure (and given the political nature of their conversations, Elayne probably only name-dropped Morgase half a million times in Tear). The restoration of Moiraine too, probably should have come closer in print to Rand's rehabilitation, and be part of the general flare of hope his epiphany engendered.

The thing remain that Brandon still showed a lot of respect for the material, and while he clearly doesn't have the talent to carry a story as detailed and ambitious as this one properly (at least in someone else's world) and make it an enjoyable read, he at least put down on the page most if not all the elements Jordan intended. It's a bit sad that the main interest for me at this point is to get all these elements to piece together my own mental version of what Jordan had in mind for the finale,
You think that's bad, what about those of us who simply lack the understanding of writing or analytical abilities to do even that much? I'm not sure who has it worse: someone like me who can see enough to know that something's wrong, and maybe point to a few details (if you love the noun "force" so much, Sanderson, why don't you just marry it? ), or the saps who can't even tell that much, and take the errors by Sanderson as fact and use them as a basis for their understandin of the story!

but I'm grateful to have this at least, and not just a bunch of notes and outlines,
Back before I knew anything one way or another about B-Sand or how he would write this, I believe I said I would like both a finished novel and RJ's notes at some point afterwards so we can crosscheck the novels.
or nothing. For the rest, TGS was quite promising with a few caveats, but TOM proved this was pretty much an illusion now dispelled. I would have stopped reading it midway if this wasn't a WOT novel. I will read AMOL, because my interest in getting the full story remains, and I doubt my interest in discussing the story will vanish because I'm nassively disappointed by TOM. As for enjoying WOT as literature/fiction and having a good time reading it, I'm very much afraid this will forever stop at KOD for me. Brandon will have satisified my desire to know how it ends, but that's pretty much it. His trilogy will hardly become memorable to me.
The one remaining hope is that aMoL gets a lot of things right, and that ToM is a mess from trying reconcile the perhaps too-easy-at-first-glance decision of how to write tGS, and an aMoL which is closer to what RJ was trying for. The mess of ToM suggests and effort to repair or patch over the blunder in making tGS as it is, which perhaps B-Sand & Team Jordan were too committed to to back out of (and still get us a book during the Obama administration) before the problems began to arise. Even if he felt it necessary to split the three books, I think it might have been better to write them all as one super-book and once finished release them all within months of each other. That would alleviate the issues with bookstores and the physical medium, and I think now that we might have preferred better editing and a more coherent schedule to getting books in '09 & '10. Really, in retrospect, a five or six year wait is not much worse than the four year wait we endured between KoD & tGS.

That being said, I still very much enjoyed the developments in TOM and TGS, it's just the execution that I really can't enjoy the way I enjoyed Jordan's books. Not even close. Jordan wrote "popular literature" and he had his shortcomings, but like another "terrible novelist" (Tolkien) he had a certain gift for storytelling
Yes. I want a story. Let Larry & co have the literature and congratulate themselves on better taste. But the kind of story Sanderson tells is why I hardly read the genre anymore.

that Brandon has major problems to emulate, at least in Jordan's world (his own stories, developped to showcase his better assets as a writer and work around his weaknesses, are much better).
I'll give him that, though it does not seem to be my taste. Honestly, I have to say I really think he's done the best he can with WoT, and was simply the wrong man for the job.
Cannoli
“Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions.” GK Chesteron
Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!
Deus Vult!
*MySmiley*
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My mostly spoiler-free review of the book (mixed-to-negative, for those who care) - 05/11/2010 03:21:42 PM 2295 Views
Eh, eh... more positive than me, it's unexpected - 05/11/2010 08:38:59 PM 4701 Views
There's plenty of blame to spread around - 06/11/2010 10:42:47 AM 1161 Views
Re: Eh, eh... more positive than me, it's unexpected - 06/11/2010 11:29:10 AM 1092 Views
Ouch - 06/11/2010 12:57:44 PM 2253 Views
For someone so vehement about the differences between B-Sand and KJA, you reference KA a lot. - 06/11/2010 02:32:33 PM 1618 Views
Well, I like it. It reminded me a lot of first books *NM* - 08/11/2010 03:33:09 PM 714 Views
Re: My mostly spoiler-free review of the book (mixed-to-negative, for those who care) - 05/11/2010 10:46:23 PM 1139 Views
RJ and Darrel Sweet are laughing at you. - 06/11/2010 03:52:45 AM 1080 Views
Re: RJ and Darrel Sweet are laughing at you. - 06/11/2010 01:27:17 PM 1065 Views
Re: My mostly spoiler-free review of the book (mixed-to-negative, for those who care) - 05/11/2010 11:51:48 PM 1443 Views
Re: lol - 06/11/2010 03:49:18 PM 1185 Views
Ahh, OK - 12/11/2010 12:57:56 AM 942 Views

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