Re: Not to mention it's not like any of these have been without repercussion! - Edit 2
Before modification by Mik at 27/10/2010 04:08:52 PM
1: Elaida - kidnapping of King Mattin Stepaneos
2: Alanna - bonding Rand against his will (nothing short of rape, known by lots of Aes Sedai)
3: Elaida - severely torturing a novice (Egwene) in front of a lot of Aes Sedai.
4: Elaida - kidnapping Rand
5: Aes Sedai kidnapping gang - severe torture of a prisoner (Rand)
2: Alanna - bonding Rand against his will (nothing short of rape, known by lots of Aes Sedai)
3: Elaida - severely torturing a novice (Egwene) in front of a lot of Aes Sedai.
4: Elaida - kidnapping Rand
5: Aes Sedai kidnapping gang - severe torture of a prisoner (Rand)
Wow, if these are atrocities to you, then I'd hate to think what category you put the Holocaust in.
Show me where an AS has murdered people on a whim and gotten away with it... but in the mean time your examples are very weak and the AS in question didn't get off half so easily as Carridin (who never so much as broke a sweat for his actions).)
I can agree there are levels of what kind of impact these different atrocities have, but comparing different atrocities and comparing how -and if- they were responded to appropriately is a very valid option.
The atrocity of mass murder would require an appropriate respons that didn't happen (arresting & putting the murderers on trial). The atrocities -extremely cruel or wicked deeds- I mentioned (severe torture, kidnapping/torture for no justifyable reason whatsoever and something viewed as nothing short of rape!) can be compared because we can see if these specific atrocities were met with an appropriate punishment!
That you don't want to compare them is based on the strawman argument that -only- mass murder can be defined as an atrocity. Pff.
1. Kidnapping a King was easy to get away with since she could claim she was saving him from Rand, and he's being treated quite well in the Tower. A Stupid and pointless act from Elaida, but hardly an atrocity.
Seated behind her gilded writing table with her hands calmly folded on the tabletop, Elaida do Avriny a'Roihan, the Watcher of the Seals, the Flame of Tar Valon, the Amyrlin Seat, kept a smooth face while she listened to the man in front of her rant, shoulders hunched and shaking his fist.
"... did be kept bound and gagged for most of the voyage, confined day and night to a cabin better called a cupboard! For that, I demand the captain of that vessel be punished, Elaida. More, I do demand an apology from you and from the White Tower. Fortune stab me, the Amyrlin Seat does no have the right to kidnap kings any longer! The White Tower does no have that right!
.../ /...
He was repeating himself again. The man barely paused for breath. It was difficult to keep her attention on him. Her eyes wandered to the bright tapestries on the walls, the neatly arrayed red roses on white plinths in the corners. Tiresome, maintaining outward calm while enduring this tirade. She wanted to stand up and slap him. The audacity of the man! To speak so to the Amyrlin Seat! But enduring calmly served her purpose better. She would let him exhaust himself.
His green silk coat, embroidered on the sleeves with the Golden Bees of Illian. had been brushed and cleaned well, short of a sister channeling to do the work, yet it had been his only coat for the voyage, and not all the stains had come out. The ship carrying him had been slow, arriving late the day before, but
for once, she was not displeased with someone else's slowness.
"... did be kept bound and gagged for most of the voyage, confined day and night to a cabin better called a cupboard! For that, I demand the captain of that vessel be punished, Elaida. More, I do demand an apology from you and from the White Tower. Fortune stab me, the Amyrlin Seat does no have the right to kidnap kings any longer! The White Tower does no have that right!
.../ /...
He was repeating himself again. The man barely paused for breath. It was difficult to keep her attention on him. Her eyes wandered to the bright tapestries on the walls, the neatly arrayed red roses on white plinths in the corners. Tiresome, maintaining outward calm while enduring this tirade. She wanted to stand up and slap him. The audacity of the man! To speak so to the Amyrlin Seat! But enduring calmly served her purpose better. She would let him exhaust himself.
His green silk coat, embroidered on the sleeves with the Golden Bees of Illian. had been brushed and cleaned well, short of a sister channeling to do the work, yet it had been his only coat for the voyage, and not all the stains had come out. The ship carrying him had been slow, arriving late the day before, but
for once, she was not displeased with someone else's slowness.
Mattin Stepaneos is the rightful ruler of a nation. A nation already suffering from the chaos surrounding it! Taking away it's ruler is an act of war! The way the king was mistreated the whole long, slow journey to Tar Valon -is- an atrocity in and by itself -and- the possible consequences for the nation shouldn't be ignored in this either.
Was Elaida punished for this act of war? Not in the slightest? Should she be trialed and hanged -as we would expect when she had commited/ordered a mass murder-? No, ofcourse not. But the whole organisation behind Elaida just shrugs off this atrocity and keeps the King a captive! What do you mean 'checks & balances'?
2. How many times has she been told she would be held accountable at some point? At the very least her standing has been compromised with every other Sister who knows what she did. But since Rand seems to accept it, and has been using her services they've left it alone. Alanna is ostracized by both groups of AS she is with for her actions (see quote below)
Are you crazy? This. is. mental. -RAPE-. man! Every Aes Sedai -a member of the organisation Alanna is from- is disgusted by the very notion!Immagine getting (yourself?, your sister?, your girlfriend? someone close to you) raped and the purpetrator of this atrocity just being slapped on the wrist a few times and getting a finger waggled in front of her!
Rand accepting her? He's trying to flee from her presence every chance he gets. What is he supposed to do? Kill her (and go crazy)? Rand is a man so often beaten into the dirt mentally, a man realising he will die soon. Just because the victim doesn't act, doesn't mean the institution behind the purpetrator shouldn't!
You're making up excuses instead of viewing this mental rape for what it is and is called by every expert in the books! An atrocity that remains unpunished. The purpetrator doesn't get punished. She gets used by her own organisation to keep a leash and tabs on the victim!!
Does Alanna deserve the same punishemt for the atrocity she commited as the Questioners for theirs? Perhaps. It's not my call, but I could very well understand her being stilled & imprisoned for what her own institute and myself would describe as a horrible, ruthless deed. The fact remains that not -one- Aes Sedai acts to get Alanna punished for what they themselve discribe as a hidious crime. Nooooo.. they -use- the advantage...
Checks & Balances! *rolls eyes*
3. Elaida was put on trial by the Hall for those actions and was formally censured for it.
Hang on. So the school-director of your school tortures your little daughter with weapons, brining her to the brink of death... and you'd be 'ok' with said school-director recieving a 'formal' punishment. Something like "now now, Elaida. You know you're not allowed to do that. Now carry on with your job".
I'm starting to get the feeling that -you- don't know what an atrocity is, to be honest. Certianly not if you even consider an act this cruel and severe punished with a formal slap on the wrist!
This deserves loss of station, stilling and imprisonment!
Elaida abused her station, her powers (weapons) in the most atrocious way I can come up with, -juuust- short of torture followed by murder.
4. How long did Alviarin manage to keep Elaida cowed over this? Elaida followed the purpose of the Red Ajah here. She ordered the capture of a man who can Channel and had him brought to TV. Stupid since he is also the DR, but also perfectly within the realm of what AS do ... how does this qualify as an atrocity? Stupidity I'll grant you.
Now you're digging yourself in deep, deep shit, darius.
Because the way I see it is that basically what you're saying is this:
"If it's in my rule-book, it's OK"
...
Because if that's the case, then what crime did the Questioners commit? I'm sure it was in their rule-book somewhere that their atrocious method of "pacifying and clearing a small village of Darkfriends" can be found in Chapter 41, subsection 5!
It's NOT ok, because it's "the Red Ajah's rule-book and MO" say so. And certainly not the WAY Rand was taken.
Since like you yourself say Alviarin kept Elaida 'cowed over this'. That must mean you, Alviarin and Elaida all full-well realising something was seriously wrong in the taking!
Are you suggesting Alviarin keeping Elaida 'cowed over this' is proper judgement and punishment of this crime commited?
Because I don't see why you bring this up, if not to point out that this was taken care of properly. Checks and Balances on atrocities! Yes sir!
5. No AS has had any indication of that and been able to affect it (those that know have no way of punishing them more than what the WO are doing to them), not to mention even those that did participate who were not DF (or Erian's special circumstances) refused to take part more than once.
What you wrote about this atrocity of the worst kind I can think off (short of adding rape), is a joke. Nothing more.
There were plenty of Aes Sedai -present- during the trip to put a stop to this extremely evil, cruel, abominable acts, commited to a prisoner day after day after day....
You using "Erian's special cisrumstances" as an excuse is disgusting.
"Refusing to take part more then once"?. Christ man...
That's like saying "Hey! I only raped her once! And I felt really, really sad that day!. The others raped her several times each day... and I tried to make it nicer for her when I climbed on top...just that once!"
It's an atrocity alright! And it's -not- punished. Not during, not after...and WO treatment is a Strawman argument; they're not from the White Tower and neither are all the purpetrators HUNG like the deserve.
Also, note Shalon's comment about the AS who participated ... they are treated by the others as though they had committed a crime:
And now you shove "Shalon's comments" in my face? Get real.
Bornhald knew members of his organisation commited a cruel crime -an atrocity- and didn't act enough.
Shalon knew members of her organisation commited a cruel crime -and atrocity- and didn't act at all.
What's worse is that Shalon literally states that the purpetrators "had committed a grievous crime known to all"
Try again to show us where AS get away with murder...
Just becuase it wasn't mass murder specifically, doesn't mean they don't represent atrocities.
Sorry.