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Strawman argument, Sid. Mik Send a noteboard - 27/10/2010 11:35:40 AM

1: Elaida - kidnapping of King Mattin Stepaneos
2: Alanna - bonding Rand against his will (nothing short of rape, known by lots of Aes Sedai)
3: Elaida - severely torturing a novice (Egwene) in front of a lot of Aes Sedai.
4: Elaida - kidnapping Rand
5: Aes Sedai kidnapping gang - severe torture of a prisoner (Rand)


Wow, if these are atrocities to you, then I'd hate to think what category you put the Holocaust in.
Just because you and darius are only willing to compare mass murder and getting away with mass murder to an exact copy of that situation by another group doesn't mean there can't be found atrocious deeds done by that other group that got away with it.

You can compare them.

That you bring in the Holocaust and only want to compare mass murder commited by members from the CotL & Aes Sedai is a strawman argument, IMO. In both groups there have been individuals (high and low in the chain of command) that have commited atrocities that were -knowingly and willingly- kept unpunished OR were "punished" with a joke compared to the atrocity commited by other members of the same group.

Just because YOU rank mass murder in the "atrocity"-section doesn't mean OTHER acts can't be labeled the same way, regardless of the fact that they are different atrocities done on another scale.
*shrugs*



Edit:
I only noticed afterwards you removed another point I brought up:

Then there's the fact that there's a whole section in the Tower Librabry (13th) kept secret. Now I'm not saying that means that everything in there are what you would call 'atrocities', but it stands to reason there's more then enough in there.

We know of a few, where the whole tower messed up big time when Shein (sp?) was Amyrlin. Didn't the Hall 'keep her inline' and the tower messing up - and all knowing it - result in a lot of wars? How long do you think it took all the Aes Sedai to do -something - about that?
How does 'starting several wars as a result of severe and long abuse of station and power', 'doing nothing about the situation and those wars for a long time -untill- you got bored of the situation the Tower is in', 'murder of a former Amyrlin' and 'everyone involved getting away with it' rate on your that "Hollocaust-Atrocio-meter" of yours? ;)

I'm just very curious why you don't think all my points are -at the very least- comparable to another atrocity and if you think those acts aren't "atrocious" how you'd like to rate them and why you'd still not be able to compare those 'acts' and how they resolved to what the Questioners did.

I don't understand why you wave your "Holocaust"-card around like it's supposed to actually make it all clear.
It's like saying reaching the moon or mars doesn't count as travelling, because your specific example is a trip to mercury. And there's that other Galaxy called "Holocaust". Now reaching that, -that's- something!

Maybe my analogy is a tad wierd given the topic, but I'm hoping it explains my problem with your statement.
Mik ~ Ishamaels halfmad 'brother'

Death dances in my footsteps....
This message last edited by Mik on 27/10/2010 at 01:56:36 PM
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The Children of the Light and the White Tower Cannoli - 20/10/2010 08:32:10 PM 2368 Views
Re: The Children of the Light and the White Tower moratcorlm - 20/10/2010 08:58:12 PM 1037 Views
The one known rapist was, by his own admission, committing a crime against their standards. Cannoli - 20/10/2010 09:05:55 PM 1156 Views
Re: The one known rapist was, by his own admission, committing a crime against their standards. moratcorlm - 21/10/2010 12:15:48 AM 1077 Views
Re: The one known rapist was, by his own admission, committing a crime against their standards. Cannoli - 21/10/2010 02:59:49 PM 1053 Views
Hehe. Touché! *NM* Mik - 21/10/2010 03:05:02 PM 566 Views
Re: The one known rapist was, by his own admission, committing a crime against their standards. Datakim - 21/10/2010 04:35:00 PM 886 Views
And farmers are, of course, treated the same as rebel officers and usurpers and mutineers. Cannoli - 23/10/2010 03:07:10 PM 955 Views
Re: The one known rapist was, by his own admission, committing a crime against their standards. moratcorlm - 21/10/2010 07:55:06 PM 983 Views
And there is no indication of how far that went. Cannoli - 23/10/2010 03:12:42 PM 847 Views
"The question" as opposed to "questioning" moratcorlm - 24/10/2010 06:21:43 PM 907 Views
And that would indicate everyone does it, if it is so commonly used, so how are the CoL worse? *NM* Cannoli - 25/10/2010 01:14:13 AM 596 Views
Re: The one known rapist was, by his own admission, committing a crime against their standards. rAndy aL - 24/10/2010 06:53:19 AM 1100 Views
But that explains their actions Cannoli - 25/10/2010 01:41:50 AM 896 Views
Don't turn this around on the Aes Sedai rAndy aL - 27/10/2010 10:53:27 AM 1040 Views
The utter stupidity of this statement caught my eye... fionwe1987 - 24/10/2010 08:12:58 AM 884 Views
Your analyses and extension of concepts always brings that "utter stupidity" phrase to my mind. Cannoli - 25/10/2010 02:17:10 AM 1061 Views
Huh? ... what !! ... are you mad? Sidious - 21/10/2010 05:05:16 PM 991 Views
Did you forget the very first PoV Darkfriend in the series? Cannoli - 23/10/2010 03:27:25 PM 975 Views
Difference being the whitecloaks who were ordered to do it were not DFs. All the AS evil deeds darius_sedai - 23/10/2010 07:55:23 PM 1001 Views
So similar scenes in the Cairhienin civil war were all the work of Darkfriends? Cannoli - 25/10/2010 02:25:57 AM 943 Views
Please provide an example of a DF AS committing an atrocity and not being punished by the Tower darius_sedai - 25/10/2010 03:34:46 AM 890 Views
Just one? Here's a list from the top of my head in 60 secs:.. Mik - 25/10/2010 09:28:10 AM 954 Views
Re: Just one? Here's a list from the top of my head in 60 secs:.. Sidious - 25/10/2010 04:14:05 PM 1078 Views
Not to mention it's not like any of these have been without repercussion! darius_sedai - 25/10/2010 04:50:39 PM 819 Views
Re: Not to mention it's not like any of these have been without repercussion! Mik - 27/10/2010 01:06:53 PM 981 Views
You under some delusion that I'm defending the AS darius_sedai - 27/10/2010 08:29:14 PM 904 Views
No. I'm pointing out you are under the delusion that AS pay for their atrocities. Mik - 28/10/2010 09:16:38 AM 863 Views
okay, so AS never Still and execute AS for doing stuff ... have you read the series? darius_sedai - 28/10/2010 05:20:28 PM 887 Views
That doesn't make the -unpunished- atrocities disappear, you know. Your point is lame AND moot. Mik - 28/10/2010 07:07:27 PM 958 Views
Re: That doesn't make the -unpunished- atrocities disappear, you know. Your point is lame AND moot. fionwe1987 - 28/10/2010 07:09:33 PM 838 Views
Strawman argument, Sid. Mik - 27/10/2010 11:35:40 AM 900 Views
To echo Darius... fionwe1987 - 23/10/2010 08:34:00 PM 933 Views
Re: To echo Darius... Mik - 25/10/2010 10:03:14 AM 872 Views
Go look up the definition of the word atrocity darius_sedai - 25/10/2010 04:53:55 PM 889 Views
Their implicit role in the genocide of Manetheren was probable their greatest atrocity *NM* Knightscape - 26/10/2010 03:01:01 AM 557 Views
You mean the act that got Tetsuan deposed, Stilled and sentenced to hard labor until she gave up the darius_sedai - 26/10/2010 04:19:45 AM 1165 Views
Ya, the ultimated punishment of cleaning pots and floors NOOOOOOOO!!! Knightscape - 26/10/2010 11:59:51 PM 857 Views
Maybe you should have done that yourself: "behaviour or an action that is wicked or ruthless" Mik - 27/10/2010 11:11:30 AM 849 Views
the fact that you can't differentiate between the extermination of an entire village darius_sedai - 27/10/2010 08:30:12 PM 890 Views
READ; I *did* differentiate between them. It doesn't change the fact all are atrocious deeds Mik - 28/10/2010 09:00:56 AM 985 Views
darius_sedai - 28/10/2010 05:22:18 PM 842 Views
You asked for atrocities and you got them. Now you just don't know what to do with them. Mik - 28/10/2010 06:49:16 PM 919 Views
dude, you gave us a list of petty crimes and compared it to mass murder darius_sedai - 28/10/2010 06:59:33 PM 877 Views
Complete the thought... fionwe1987 - 28/10/2010 07:11:37 PM 806 Views
seems I must do so for this guy to understand ... and I'm not holding my breath on that! darius_sedai - 28/10/2010 08:24:57 PM 943 Views
Rape, murder, starting wars and doing noting about them, kidnap / severe torture of prisoners... *NM* Mik - 28/10/2010 07:51:33 PM 512 Views
again you fail to note that the AS have systems in place to prevent these things darius_sedai - 28/10/2010 08:23:32 PM 899 Views
Again you fail to note that the AS haven't used those "systems" of theirs Mik - 28/10/2010 09:02:15 PM 1094 Views
What wars did they start? fionwe1987 - 28/10/2010 08:56:46 PM 809 Views
You should be an Aes Sedai; the way you can twist truth would scare Siuan. Mik - 28/10/2010 09:07:24 PM 849 Views
Wow... I'm sooo Insulted! fionwe1987 - 28/10/2010 09:23:41 PM 870 Views
fionwe1987 - 28/10/2010 07:07:57 PM 943 Views
Take your own advice, please Mik - 28/10/2010 07:30:51 PM 857 Views
Re: Take your own advice, please Sidious - 28/10/2010 07:44:59 PM 803 Views
Their own organisation calls it rape. Simple. Mik - 28/10/2010 08:26:49 PM 873 Views
Re: Take your own advice, please fionwe1987 - 28/10/2010 09:18:17 PM 1010 Views
Come on. Just say it. Real men don't act like catty, bitchy women. *NM* Tom - 20/10/2010 11:14:49 PM 557 Views
"Rightly hold responsible for the threat of the Shadow?" Puh-leeze newyorkersedai - 21/10/2010 12:06:34 AM 889 Views
Puh-leeze right back at you: Mik - 21/10/2010 08:24:12 AM 872 Views
The Wheel was created so the DO could break in. The Creator plays his game with the DO thru people newyorkersedai - 21/10/2010 01:45:07 PM 873 Views
It was you who brought up that silly Real World kitchen example, silly. Mik - 25/10/2010 10:55:29 AM 714 Views
I could say you zinged me, but you're just bent on silliness. Bored now. *NM* newyorkersedai - 25/10/2010 10:54:41 PM 511 Views
Your personal theories do not constitute evidence, and your aberrant logic better supports MY case Cannoli - 21/10/2010 03:21:44 PM 1043 Views
Objection, your honor! Bringing evidentiary rules into this is asinine! *NM* newyorkersedai - 21/10/2010 11:22:19 PM 482 Views
The word "evidence" is not exclusive to the practice of jurisprudence Cannoli - 23/10/2010 03:31:57 PM 929 Views
Rational thinking. Well, you use the word "deserved" in all caps. Nuff said. *NM* newyorkersedai - 23/10/2010 04:55:02 PM 503 Views
Emphasis means nothing one way or another as far as rationality goes, which you would know... Cannoli - 25/10/2010 01:13:23 AM 1013 Views
You know zilch about my acquaintances. "mk" was wrong - you're not an idiot. But you are ignorable. *NM* newyorkersedai - 25/10/2010 10:57:04 PM 516 Views
fionwe1987 - 21/10/2010 01:47:19 AM 1038 Views
Not so sure about that moratcorlm - 21/10/2010 02:29:02 AM 933 Views
Re: Not so sure about that fionwe1987 - 21/10/2010 03:57:34 AM 961 Views
the city is closed to WC Foxhead - 21/10/2010 04:01:45 AM 1001 Views
Re: the city is closed to WC moratcorlm - 21/10/2010 04:55:45 AM 838 Views
But that is irrelevant. Aes Sedai can also go to Amadicia in disguise. *NM* fionwe1987 - 21/10/2010 05:35:18 AM 461 Views
But they aren't in disguise moratcorlm - 21/10/2010 08:31:38 AM 872 Views
They don't wear their uniform, their one identifying feature. That is a disguise. fionwe1987 - 21/10/2010 09:08:25 PM 809 Views
Re: They don't wear their uniform, their one identifying feature. That is a disguise. moratcorlm - 22/10/2010 02:10:07 PM 906 Views
Don't be ridiculous... fionwe1987 - 22/10/2010 04:52:55 PM 870 Views
No different moratcorlm - 23/10/2010 02:26:24 PM 948 Views
CotL are welcome in Tar Valon to have a drink. Aes Sedai are hanged when found in Amadicia.. Mik - 21/10/2010 08:33:03 AM 964 Views
Here is to hoping Egwene can get her head out of her ass. Hot Pie - 21/10/2010 10:30:10 AM 928 Views
Now hang on a minute! ˥ɐ ʎpu∀ɹ - 21/10/2010 07:28:45 AM 1089 Views
Re: Now hang on a minute! moratcorlm - 21/10/2010 10:49:34 AM 979 Views
Re: Now hang on a minute! rAndy aL - 21/10/2010 11:28:55 PM 987 Views
Re: Now hang on a minute! moratcorlm - 22/10/2010 01:08:14 AM 940 Views
IMO, the main difference between Egwene & Galad is... Mik - 21/10/2010 12:36:53 PM 1014 Views
it would be an interesting comparison if they weren't completely different organizations Zaphod - 21/10/2010 04:09:31 PM 1041 Views
You! Macharius - 22/10/2010 02:28:07 PM 959 Views
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