Just because one side is powerful enough to ignore the other does not invalidate the state of mind of the Children. Their actions are explained by their own mentality. The lack of overt fighting back does not alter their own position.
An explanation doesn't mean an excuse. You cannot use war as a justification unless you can justify the war itself. In this case, their fighting against a stronger enemy that refuses to fight back except in self defense. Aes Sedai are by no means "good", but it doesn't take a genius to work out that they are not all darkfriends. The 2 biggest Ajahs are dedicated to fighting Shadowspawn and stopping male channelers for god's sake!We're talking about people who channel. If you accept their admittedly flawed first premise, the rest follows naturally.
You shouldn't. My whole point was that they are far too quick to label people as darkfriends. You can't excuse that because they think Aes Sedai are darkfriends. That's circular reasoning.This is hardly a fault solely to be placed at the feet of the Children of the Light. The Aes Sedai are little different. The Children's problem is they have no way to deal with such things short of getting rid of them. The knee-jerk reaction of most sisters to wolfbrothers and sniffers is suspicion. It's easy to be tolerant once you can safely establish that you outweigh them on the scale of supernatural power by several orders of magnitude.
There's a big difference between being suspicious of someone and asserting that they must be an agent of Evil. The children's knee-jerk reaction to wolfbrothers and sniffers is to kill them. Not equivalent.Under suspicion, certainly. Siuan uses much more dubious links to advise the Amyrlin Seat that Cadsuane, the Aes Sedai engaged in the single most important task of any sister in the world at the time, was suspected of being a Darkfriend as well.
Ok, under suspicion but the whole guilty until proven innocent thing bugs me a little. It wouldn't be so bad if they didn't already think way too many people were darkfriends.Eh, he was young and new. You can hardly blame them for being suspicious.
If that's the case, why was he put in charge? He's obviously too hot-blooded to be a good leader.Actually, it was the Trolloc infestation that gave Ordeith's supernaturally-reinforced accusations credibility. Are we going to start evaluating Mat's attempted murder while under the influence of the Shadar Logoth dagger as a character flaw?
If Mat did that on the boat to Whitebridge, then yes. I can excuse any of Ordeith's Whitecloaks, but the other ones were not that heavily affected. Even the White Tower's servants are darkfriends!
Who else would willingly serve the arch-minions of the Dark One? Well, maybe if we ever saw them receiving the slightest modicum of cooperation from anyone they did not absolutely have under their thumbs, they wouldn't think they had to push so hard all the time. Recall that they DID try the peaceful approach at first, before turning to military methods. It is a valid possibility that they were driven to it by persecution of powerful individuals or groups who resented the preachers' claims that they might be harboring darkfriends, and that possibility is equally likely compared to those which reflect more poorly on them.
More likely they turned to military methods because of the Hundred Years War. Seriously, what do you think would have happened if the Aes Sedai tried the same technique? Seanchan Empire? Also, they wouldn't have to push so hard if people just followed them like good little sheeple. Good one.
And none of this alters the issue I originally brought up. This is a massive time of change in WoT, and a lot of slates are being wiped blank. If the group that literally destroyed the world three thousand years ago can be rehabilitated and given a fresh start (with not a single individual yet shown to display the moral character of Galad Damodred or the service to the Light of Lord Captain Trom), why not the Children?
I should point out that the Aes Sedai are different from their AoL counterparts in all but name.I was comparing their organizations' reactions to the CURRENT similar crises, and everyone else starts bringing up old issues that they themselves are putting in the past because there are more important things to deal with (a notion that has occurred to maybe .6% of Aes Sedai).
And don't think you were taking pot shots at the Aes Sedai in your comparison? I find that hard to believe, because everyone else did. Then people bring up differences between the Children and Aes Sedai that might influence the way they reacted to the situation, and you fight any point they make to the death. Don't hold yourself blameless here.I think the kinds of response I get to this are seriously indicative of some major mental flaws in the contemporary mindset. Whatever is going on in the popular zeitgeist, you people all get so hung up on the use of torture that you instinctively sympathize with the group that does a better job of hiding it, despite their far more egregious crimes against freedom. The suppression of other channeling organizations, and the brutalizing channelers who have no obligations or ties to their authority but choose to associate on their own are far more egregious crimes than being a bit rough when occupying a vacuum of authority. The former strike at the very concepts of personal freedom and free will and justice, whereas the worst one can quarrel with the Children over is their methods. The Tower pursues absolutely evil (with a lowercase 'e' ) goals, and because they are nice about it, that's all cool. But just because the Children become so sidetracked that they lost track of their mission in a way that just happens to touch on something held in public revulsion in contemporary society, they cannot even be given credit for their positive efforts in the current time.
Don't tell me I have mental problems for disagreeing with you. The Aes Sedai supress other channelers. The Whitecloaks kill them on site. The Aes Sedai use torture. The Whitecloaks have a sub-organisation dedicated to it. If you really think we only disagree with the Whitecloaks on their methods, you haven't been reading. The Aes Sedai have evil goals. The Whitecloaks have evil goals, but are better at hiding them. Saying that we only care about their use of torture is a complete misrepresentation of the views of everyone who replied.
The Children of the Light and the White Tower
20/10/2010 08:32:10 PM
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Re: The Children of the Light and the White Tower
20/10/2010 08:58:12 PM
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The one known rapist was, by his own admission, committing a crime against their standards.
20/10/2010 09:05:55 PM
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Re: The one known rapist was, by his own admission, committing a crime against their standards.
21/10/2010 12:15:48 AM
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Re: The one known rapist was, by his own admission, committing a crime against their standards.
21/10/2010 02:59:49 PM
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Re: The one known rapist was, by his own admission, committing a crime against their standards.
21/10/2010 04:35:00 PM
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And farmers are, of course, treated the same as rebel officers and usurpers and mutineers.
23/10/2010 03:07:10 PM
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Re: The one known rapist was, by his own admission, committing a crime against their standards.
21/10/2010 07:55:06 PM
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And there is no indication of how far that went.
23/10/2010 03:12:42 PM
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"The question" as opposed to "questioning"
24/10/2010 06:21:43 PM
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And that would indicate everyone does it, if it is so commonly used, so how are the CoL worse? *NM*
25/10/2010 01:14:13 AM
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Re: The one known rapist was, by his own admission, committing a crime against their standards.
24/10/2010 06:53:19 AM
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But that explains their actions
25/10/2010 01:41:50 AM
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Don't turn this around on the Aes Sedai
27/10/2010 10:53:27 AM
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The utter stupidity of this statement caught my eye...
24/10/2010 08:12:58 AM
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Your analyses and extension of concepts always brings that "utter stupidity" phrase to my mind.
25/10/2010 02:17:10 AM
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Huh? ... what !! ... are you mad?
21/10/2010 05:05:16 PM
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Did you forget the very first PoV Darkfriend in the series?
23/10/2010 03:27:25 PM
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Difference being the whitecloaks who were ordered to do it were not DFs. All the AS evil deeds
23/10/2010 07:55:23 PM
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So similar scenes in the Cairhienin civil war were all the work of Darkfriends?
25/10/2010 02:25:57 AM
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Please provide an example of a DF AS committing an atrocity and not being punished by the Tower
25/10/2010 03:34:46 AM
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Just one? Here's a list from the top of my head in 60 secs:..
25/10/2010 09:28:10 AM
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Re: Just one? Here's a list from the top of my head in 60 secs:..
25/10/2010 04:14:05 PM
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Not to mention it's not like any of these have been without repercussion!
25/10/2010 04:50:39 PM
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Re: Not to mention it's not like any of these have been without repercussion!
27/10/2010 01:06:53 PM
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You under some delusion that I'm defending the AS
27/10/2010 08:29:14 PM
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No. I'm pointing out you are under the delusion that AS pay for their atrocities.
28/10/2010 09:16:38 AM
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okay, so AS never Still and execute AS for doing stuff ... have you read the series?
28/10/2010 05:20:28 PM
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That doesn't make the -unpunished- atrocities disappear, you know. Your point is lame AND moot.
28/10/2010 07:07:27 PM
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Re: That doesn't make the -unpunished- atrocities disappear, you know. Your point is lame AND moot.
28/10/2010 07:09:33 PM
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To echo Darius...
23/10/2010 08:34:00 PM
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Re: To echo Darius...
25/10/2010 10:03:14 AM
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Go look up the definition of the word atrocity
25/10/2010 04:53:55 PM
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Their implicit role in the genocide of Manetheren was probable their greatest atrocity *NM*
26/10/2010 03:01:01 AM
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You mean the act that got Tetsuan deposed, Stilled and sentenced to hard labor until she gave up the
26/10/2010 04:19:45 AM
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Ya, the ultimated punishment of cleaning pots and floors NOOOOOOOO!!!
26/10/2010 11:59:51 PM
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Maybe you should have done that yourself: "behaviour or an action that is wicked or ruthless"
27/10/2010 11:11:30 AM
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the fact that you can't differentiate between the extermination of an entire village
27/10/2010 08:30:12 PM
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READ; I *did* differentiate between them. It doesn't change the fact all are atrocious deeds
28/10/2010 09:00:56 AM
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28/10/2010 05:22:18 PM
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You asked for atrocities and you got them. Now you just don't know what to do with them.
28/10/2010 06:49:16 PM
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dude, you gave us a list of petty crimes and compared it to mass murder
28/10/2010 06:59:33 PM
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Complete the thought...
28/10/2010 07:11:37 PM
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seems I must do so for this guy to understand ... and I'm not holding my breath on that!
28/10/2010 08:24:57 PM
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Rape, murder, starting wars and doing noting about them, kidnap / severe torture of prisoners... *NM*
28/10/2010 07:51:33 PM
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again you fail to note that the AS have systems in place to prevent these things
28/10/2010 08:23:32 PM
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Again you fail to note that the AS haven't used those "systems" of theirs
28/10/2010 09:02:15 PM
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What wars did they start?
28/10/2010 08:56:46 PM
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You should be an Aes Sedai; the way you can twist truth would scare Siuan.
28/10/2010 09:07:24 PM
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28/10/2010 07:07:57 PM
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Take your own advice, please
28/10/2010 07:30:51 PM
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Come on. Just say it. Real men don't act like catty, bitchy women. *NM*
20/10/2010 11:14:49 PM
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"Rightly hold responsible for the threat of the Shadow?" Puh-leeze
21/10/2010 12:06:34 AM
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Puh-leeze right back at you:
21/10/2010 08:24:12 AM
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The Wheel was created so the DO could break in. The Creator plays his game with the DO thru people
21/10/2010 01:45:07 PM
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It was you who brought up that silly Real World kitchen example, silly.
25/10/2010 10:55:29 AM
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I could say you zinged me, but you're just bent on silliness. Bored now. *NM*
25/10/2010 10:54:41 PM
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Your personal theories do not constitute evidence, and your aberrant logic better supports MY case
21/10/2010 03:21:44 PM
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Objection, your honor! Bringing evidentiary rules into this is asinine! *NM*
21/10/2010 11:22:19 PM
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The word "evidence" is not exclusive to the practice of jurisprudence
23/10/2010 03:31:57 PM
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Rational thinking. Well, you use the word "deserved" in all caps. Nuff said. *NM*
23/10/2010 04:55:02 PM
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Emphasis means nothing one way or another as far as rationality goes, which you would know...
25/10/2010 01:13:23 AM
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You know zilch about my acquaintances. "mk" was wrong - you're not an idiot. But you are ignorable. *NM*
25/10/2010 10:57:04 PM
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21/10/2010 01:47:19 AM
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Not so sure about that
21/10/2010 02:29:02 AM
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the city is closed to WC
21/10/2010 04:01:45 AM
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Re: the city is closed to WC
21/10/2010 04:55:45 AM
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But that is irrelevant. Aes Sedai can also go to Amadicia in disguise. *NM*
21/10/2010 05:35:18 AM
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But they aren't in disguise
21/10/2010 08:31:38 AM
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They don't wear their uniform, their one identifying feature. That is a disguise.
21/10/2010 09:08:25 PM
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Re: They don't wear their uniform, their one identifying feature. That is a disguise.
22/10/2010 02:10:07 PM
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CotL are welcome in Tar Valon to have a drink. Aes Sedai are hanged when found in Amadicia..
21/10/2010 08:33:03 AM
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Now hang on a minute!
21/10/2010 07:28:45 AM
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Re: Now hang on a minute!
21/10/2010 10:49:34 AM
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it would be an interesting comparison if they weren't completely different organizations
21/10/2010 04:09:31 PM
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