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So they'd appeal to readers like you? Cannoli Send a noteboard - 16/10/2010 12:18:31 PM
So many people here agree that LTT was vastly superior to Rand as a channeling warrior/general and LTT had such a hard time dealing with the Forsaken even though he had many, many lightsider men and women powerful channelers in his 'army',
Maybe the people here are stupid? Just because a lot of people who have no real knowledge of a character claim he is superior does not make it so. Your comparison here is so incomplete and illegitimate it hurts my brain.

SO why after all the build up of the Forsaken were they written in just about every book as bumbling morons who never KILL when they have the chance to?
Because they're evil. Evil people have different priorities and despite what our effete popular culture might preach, there is no direct correlation between willingness to kill and morality. Terry Pratchett, in one of his Discworld books has Sam Vimes (generally agreed to be one of those "voice of the author" characters) assert that if you are ever held at swordpoint, pray that your captor is an evil man, because a good man who has a reason to think you are an enemy will simply kill you, because that is the right thing to do with enemies. Evil people are open to compromise or bribery or even mere sadism, which gives you a longer life expectancy (for better of for worse).

Much of the building up of the Forsaken has been in the minds of the same readers who declare LTT the superior character and leader on the basis of absolutely zero evidence.

It's exactly as people say here, they are cartoon villians: "I have you powerless in my grasp young Rand. You are handcuffed, blinded, gagged & shielded, so now I will tell you my master plan before I kill you!".
Name a Forsaken who has had the good guys as a direct captive for more than a couple of minutes. Or ANY WoT character, besides Rand, who has ever told people everything. In any event, they ARE realistic villains.

It's like something out of Austin Powers where the son says "Just KILL him! Don't sit around yakking, kill him!".

I mean only ONE Forsaken had the brains and the ambition to even look for an angreal, much less a sa'angreal and that turned out to be the weakest, wimpiest one of the lot, Asmodean. Where did he have the brains and balls to go find the most powerful sa'angreal ever created in the history of the WORLD to kill Rand and Co, yet Ba'alzamon/Moridin can't even find a friggin angreal!
In the first place you're wrong, since Lanfear's desire for the Choedan Kal is demonstrated thoroughly, Sammael and Moghedian were both involved in the hunt for the Ebou Dar cache, the latter apparently at MORIDIN'S orders (did you forget that she was worried about his displeasure when she balefired Nynaeve's boat before dashing off to "make Falion & Ispan crawl"? ), and Graendal sneaked into Sammael's quarters, evading Rand & the Asha'man to steal an angreal. The allied trio was also concerned about aquiring angreal but as they noted in LoC, all the known ones were already secured, and it was not worth the risk of discovery or capture.

The Forsaken are smart enough to realize how little angreal matter anyway. None of them want to pull off the sort of massive feats that require the strongest sa'angreal anyway, since they want to rule the world, not destroy it. As they note in their reasons for avoiding the Great Holding, Rhuidean and the Tower storerooms, even a weak and relatively untrained channeler can kill a highly trained and immensely powerful one (See Moiraine vs. Bel'al). This is not some computer role-playing game where "experience" & increased ability & power give you more points of damage to both dish out per attack and absorb without dying. An angreal is merely a slight upgrade and offers you no real protection. If they had a chance, they'd certainly grab one, but it is not worth taking serious risks to aquire.

Sure he can just fish a cou'souvra out of his butthole to mindtrap two very deadly Forsaken, but finding an angreal, even a weak one that would double his power now that's too hard to do! Btw what does he do with 2 Forsaken that he can force to link with him and blow Rand and Co from the water? Oh yeah he sends them on errands - how imaginative.
Are you so incredibly retarded that you missed the point where MORIDIN DOES NOT WANT RAND DEAD?!?! And what ELSE do you do with two highly-trained and top-percentile powered slaves, besides send them on errands? The essential thing for every Forsaken is survival. They betrayed humanity and the Light for the chance to never die. That gives them absolutely zero desire to take risks. Two Forsaken he can send to do his bidding and avoid exposure or even the slightest chance of getting killed by someone with an itchy trigger finger is an absolutely perfect use for them from Moridin's, or any other character's perspective!

Does Mesaana who is literally sitting on a pile of angreal and sa'angreal (with one being the most powerful the Aes Sedai have) even bother to take anything for herself? Nah, she would prefer to walk around like a ditz, then get raped by a huge hung Fade. OhhhhK.
Did you even read the part where she mentioned how everything is warded and counted twice a day? Her primary mission is staying in place to manipulate the White Tower, the most powerful polity or organization in the world. That is far more important than a private power boost. When has she ever failed at a task for lack of strength in the One Power? As for the rape thing, she had no choice. It was a Dark One mandated punishment. If she fought back, she would be guilty of treason against the Dark One. If she exposed herself to grab a personal-use angreal, and the Shadow lost its top operative inside the Tower, do you think the Dark One/Shadar Haran would be any more merciful?

Why is it that NO FORSAKEN but Graendal can find and use a friggin angreal?? If they are so hard to find why are there dozens with Aes Sedai (duh, cant the Forsaken just gate in, get one and leave? The room with the angrea/sa'angreal isn't even protected against intruders!),
Right! Because of all the Seanchan attacks on the Tower that have created equivalent opportunities for a snatch and grab! THEY ARE WARDED. And even if they are not, the Forsaken believe they are (it could very well have been a lie by Mesaana who did not want her rivals taking them), and as I explained above, it isn't worth the risk of getting made by a sister.

and even more with the Kin , the Aiel and the Light knows who else. Probably Bela's hooves are sa'angreals and Master Gill has a few he uses as butt pads.
The Aiel hide their channeling and don't fight and view the artifacts in Rhuidean as sacred relics that are not for their touch or use. The Kin operate under novice rules and novices are certainly forbidden to use objects of the Power. The Kin's highest priority is to remain hidden and avoid attention. There are certainly going to be Aes Sedai in the city on a frequent basis, it being the largest harbor in the world and an important port and center of commerce. A Kinswoman wielding a sa'angreal would be found out in a minute, and their secret goes up in smoke.

I dont know if anyone's ever read the Sword of Truth series, but the villians there are N-A-S-T-Y (sometimes too negative for me to want to even read), and even in the Song of Fire and Ice they are pretty perverted, so why are all these 'deadly' Forsaken such weak, wimpy ass chumps?
Becuase you are a spoiled child who cannot grasp the concept of delayed gratification, or that there might be more important things than self-indulgence. The Forsaken have objectives higher than sitting around giggling about how powerful they are and proudly inventorying their stash of powerful toys. As for your comparison to two vastly inferior series' villains, what SoI&F character has indulged in greater perversions than Graendal or more sadistic acts than Semirhage or proved himself a general worthy of being called a Great Captain as Sammael and Demandred are alluded to be (and which has never been disproved in the series)? The "villains" in SoI&F are really nothing more than petty selfish lords who act on slights to their pride. There is not a villain in that series who has demonstrated capabilities to match the Forsaken. Tywin Lannister is the most intelligent, but there is zero evidence that he would work for the Dark One. He is lowercase evil and show absolutely no inclinations to megalomania or egotism run rampant that might lead him to seek out the Shadow to gain license for his self-indulgence.

RJ was in a war, so it isn't as tho he couldnt come up with some nasty things an enemy could or would do to you. I don't think there's a single person here who for a second doubts that all the Forsaken will or at least can be killed in the following 2 books. They aren't even as frightening as Voldemort, and that's a series intended for children originally.
Do you even realize where you are going with this? Adults are not frightened by the same things children are, because they know better. Voldemort is the monster under the bed, and his "terror" is simply a lust to run his old school. Of course it will be scary to the kids who have been taught to hate him and revere that school, but beyond the clandestine bitch-fights of the wizard world, he is no threat to take over the real world (for all their professed power and superiority, it is wizards who hide from muggles, and not the other way around - and wizards who are experts on the muggle world are hopeless inept at dealing with it, while wizards who are raised as muggles have no trouble grasping the essentials of the wizard community and becoming quite successful in it).

So why are they such idiots? Frankly I think Rand is more worried about the Seanchan being against him at TG than the Forsaken.

Thoughts please....
Duh. Who said they are supposed to be smart and elite? Just a bunch of idiot readers. Verin comes right out and TELLS Egwene (though she was almost certainly speaking more to us) that they are chosen for their selfish pettiness. They are not the top villians and are merely lackeys of the real menace, which is the Dark One. The Dragon was not reborn to fight the Forsaken, but to face the Dark One. The Forsaken would be nothing without their Great Lord, and even IF LTT was in fact, a greatly superior individual, leader, warrior, general and channeler to Rand, he was not losing to the Forsaken, but to the Dark One. The Dark One was free in the War of the Shadow, while in the current time he is still partially restrained by LTT's seals. RJ himself dismissed the Forsaken who were not sealed away with the Dark One as all being killed off and not even worthy of having their fall told. There has never been any suggestion in the story that they could win or even survive without the Dark One, and even if that is not enough, the fact that these treacherous, self-serving and arrogant individuals all jump to obey his commands and fall to their knees for him should tell you their own opinions of their power relative to his.

That is another contributing factor - they have no real urgency to fight and defeat Rand, because they know better than anyone the power of the Dark One and don't give Rand a snowball's chance in hell against him. As far as they're concerned, it's just a matter of time until their side wins, and they're main priority is both surviving until that day and winning the Dark One's favor so that he will reward them. Their goal is to be there to reap the rewards, not win your approval as badass supervillains.
Cannoli
“Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions.” GK Chesteron
Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!
Deus Vult!
*MySmiley*
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Delete Post *NM* - 16/10/2010 08:42:52 AM 1584 Views
So they'd appeal to readers like you? - 16/10/2010 12:18:31 PM 791 Views
my own thoughts to some comments - 17/10/2010 02:05:51 AM 530 Views
Re: "Name a Forsaken..." (edit) - 17/10/2010 02:57:45 AM 363 Views
to be fair to moghedien - 17/10/2010 04:10:12 PM 423 Views
A few things: - 16/10/2010 05:54:36 PM 467 Views
He didn't actually do that. - 16/10/2010 06:10:47 PM 476 Views
I hadn't checked his/her edits. *NM* - 16/10/2010 07:17:00 PM 302 Views
Shove it - 18/10/2010 06:22:00 AM 296 Views
Because no one reads the books before forming strong opinions about events in them. *NM* - 16/10/2010 06:08:40 PM 266 Views
I have noticed that myself! *NM* - 17/10/2010 08:07:49 PM 284 Views
Who knows? But he's way more entertaining than you are - 16/10/2010 07:16:21 PM 415 Views
Hahaha Cannoli = Adam Lambert - 18/10/2010 05:49:59 AM 297 Views
This was incredibly rude. Cadsuane would slap you for that. - 16/10/2010 08:49:27 PM 548 Views
Now I love Cannoli... - 17/10/2010 08:00:50 PM 380 Views
I wouldn't let it bother me. And I wouldn't respond with a curse word to try and prove a point. - 16/10/2010 08:57:37 PM 335 Views
Agreed *NM* - 16/10/2010 09:40:17 PM 276 Views
Is this seriously what we have devolved to? - 16/10/2010 09:35:46 PM 365 Views
Not what we desolved to. Just him *NM* - 16/10/2010 11:59:26 PM 262 Views
You're right, I spoke in haste. - 17/10/2010 03:07:13 AM 316 Views
Cannoly? An asshole? No!... </sarcasm> *NM* - 16/10/2010 11:32:35 PM 297 Views
Because he chooses to be *NM* - 17/10/2010 12:06:23 AM 248 Views
Cannoli can be harsh, but he is not moronic - 17/10/2010 12:44:48 AM 346 Views
Grow up. *NM* - 17/10/2010 01:26:07 AM 362 Views
this is a terrible way to deal with criticism - 17/10/2010 01:33:02 AM 370 Views
oops, ignore *NM* - 17/10/2010 02:49:53 AM 279 Views
That's a mirror you're looking at, not a picture of Cannoli - 17/10/2010 01:40:29 AM 338 Views
he may be an asshole, but you're just a moron. an annoying one. - 17/10/2010 01:47:57 AM 468 Views
who cares? - 17/10/2010 01:59:24 AM 312 Views
The Wheel weaves as it wills. *NM* - 17/10/2010 02:50:40 AM 345 Views
All it takes is experience; Some constructive advice. - 17/10/2010 03:07:35 AM 427 Views
tl;dnr *NM* - 17/10/2010 03:08:16 AM 278 Views
This is the most Cannoli love I've seen since - 18/10/2010 05:51:15 AM 416 Views