You know, I wonder how the souls for shadowspawn are selected. Are the souls of trollocs the souls of people who in past life swore to the shadow, and the DO can then pull those souls into trollocs since they sort of belong to him.
Jordan didn't say but his explanation left me the impression that's part of the nature of things that a soul gets attached to being "at the moment of conception".
My guess is that ithe Creator has put some mechanisms in place which award each soul a rebirth that is the consequence of the sort of life one lead in the last incarnation. We know some of this happens: for instance, someone's exceptional life or qualities might trigger the Wheel to "collect" this soul to join the special "Heroes" soul pool.
It's not impossible souls are "judged" after death, and the rebirth they get next is meant to make them progress toward.... the sort of spiritual enlightenment the Dragon Soul has reached. I think Rand's soul has reached a very high level of progress (Budhha like), which is why he could even survive all he did before the DM epiphany. A lesser soul would have long fallen to the Shadow, or to self-destruction. Rand could bear the extreme path, falter and hit the bottom of the barrel... and when he rebounds, he does so spectacularly.
So... if you lead a very bad, unbalanced life, you might be awarded a rebirth where you have to endure the depradations of bad people. Etc. Mierin might be reborn as a very physically imperfect, not too intelligent baby, etc. I tend to think the life you lead is how the "key events" of your next life get picked for you by the Wheel... and from there it's to you to make the best of it. I think in the "normal afterlife", everyone has access to all lives/memories to reflect on yourself, your successes and failures etc., not just the Heroes like Rand, Birgitte etc.
Is Verin going to reborn as a trolloc and be forever damned since she swore to the DO.
I'm undecided when it comes to DF/Forsaken.
Brandon implied there are lasting consequences for your soul for tying yourself to Shai'tan. It's likely we'll get more information on this in the last two books.
Personally, I doubt Trollocs have human souls. I think when they do, they are born as Myrddraal (or the other way around... when the genetics is too much a throwback to human stock, this being attracts a human soul). I think Trollocs are born with animal souls (if there is such a differentiation between souls... it's perfectly possible a soul is a soul and not species specific, and it progresses through the Ages and Turnings from inanimate, to animal to human etc., with possible regressions on occasion)
Or is it just random chance, where if you are unlucky your soul is pulled into a trolloc and forever corrupted simply because it happened to be available for rebirth during the birth of a trolloc. That would suck pretty bad if your soul would be forever corrupted due to no fault of your own.
Because the TP was involved in all this, I think that indeed it is "random back luck". This is not planned by the Wheel, as the TP has interfered. So in essence, I think the soul gets "stolen". For the rest, I don't think there's an intervention from Shai'tan, nor even from Aginor, or the AS who made constructs to attach a soul to an artificial being. I think manipulating cells and DNA to produce a new lifeform makes this process of a soul getting attached, a new life thread woven happen automatically. Because of the TP interference, I think the future of a shadowspawn is largely unpredictable (so would be someone deciding to swear one day to Shai'tan, who is not part of the Pattern. I don't think the Wheel foresees this), so some poor soul destined for a good life as a owl or eagle or fox gets stolen for a twisted Trolloc.
It sounds to me a lot that the problem is that death can't "cleanse you" or make you progress spiritually, only an incarnation can. The consequence of that is that a soul who lived a life as Shadowspawn is tainted, too tainted to be reborn as anything else, and only by being incarnated again could it gradually cleanse itself and progress again. So, it's a vicious circle.. too tainted for rebirth, and no rebirth means no cleansing possible.
RJ also said Trolloc souls are pitiful things, which confirms there is a hierachy among souls, some more advanced or powerful than others. Incidentally, IMO I think there are basically two sides to strength in the OP: one side is like Rand: spiritual enlightenment making your soul more and more powerful, the other side is like Lanfear/Ishamael and co: your soul increases in power because you are obsessed with power. I think the two aspects co-exist. My feeling is that Lanfear periodically gets "tested" with her rebirths. After a cycle of "training", she is given an incarnation where she has near everything. Obviously, as Mierin she is still a massive failure, still spiritually a failure: she got perfect physique and a power to fascinate, great intelligence, massive power.. .and yet she spent her life obsessing over what she couldn't get: the ability to channel the two halves of the OP - and while her beauty and charm gave the huge advantage that among all the men she could pretty much choose the best suited to her and chances were he'd fall in love... she went and picked the one man who rejected her, and spent all her life obsessed over that. Lanfear is probably due for a rebirth as someone who isn't at all gifted, because she cannot handle having almost everything. Same for Demandred, Semirhage... These souls are unable to cope with the challenge of being gifted with so much power. They misuse it, are just greedy for more etc.
I wonder why the DO would not do all in his power to have the dragon-soul be born into a shadowspawn, just once. If the corruption is forever, then that would be game over.
I don't think the DO attaches the souls to Shadowspawn himself, but he could eventually transmigrate a soul into a Shadospawn's body..... but for the DR... it's only if he had Rand's soul in his keeping to transmigrate... He could also very possibly keep this soul forever with him.. or even destroy it.
It would be "game over" for Rand's soul - after a life as Trolloc he would be useless for rebirth as a human, but RJ has strongly suggested the Dragon Soul is the Chosen One as he's the best for the task, but a new Chosen One would be picked among the Heroes to be the champion against Shai'tan if something was to happen to the Dragon Soul. I think the Heroes are just very advanced souls on their spiritual path. There is a great wisdom, a kind of zen peace, to Birgitte despite appearances. It is also too overlooked that Gaidal and her are like the "perfect lovers": no dependance, no jealousy, no possession, complete loyalty, trust, friendship, dedication, complementarity etc. There are many among the Heroes that are inspired by religious figures, from the Dragon to Birgitte (she's a mix of many things, including St Brigid), St Patrick, Amaterasu who is a Shinto Sun Goddess etc.
Chapter 1 released
01/10/2010 01:40:27 PM
- 5662 Views
For the record, it sucks waiting for you people to wake up and read this
01/10/2010 01:50:02 PM
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Not too much new to work with. Is "she" Egwene? Cads? Someone else? *NM*
01/10/2010 02:01:12 PM
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Well damn. Was that Buddha?
01/10/2010 02:36:29 PM
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This blaming Brandon for everything stuff is getting old.
01/10/2010 02:55:04 PM
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I've never blamed BS for anything (expect fucking up Mat's character)
01/10/2010 03:27:36 PM
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BOOOOO I want Sunshine and Rainbows damnit *NM*
01/10/2010 11:04:21 PM
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Poorly written, but I still got goosebumps at Rand's importance finally being demonstrated...
01/10/2010 03:14:48 PM
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"My father’s estates do produce lumber and fine woods, and ice peppers, and furs, and more besides."
01/10/2010 03:27:22 PM
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It's the style. In the Randland context, the word "grows" is more appropriate...
01/10/2010 03:31:22 PM
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did you not read my reply title? That was a quote from The Shadow Rising, same exact context. *NM*
01/10/2010 03:32:23 PM
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Fine. So be it. It still feels wrong to me. *NM*
01/10/2010 03:36:16 PM
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but it's all RJ's fault *NM*
01/10/2010 03:40:14 PM
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Maybe it's in the context of BS's sentences...
01/10/2010 03:44:28 PM
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I feel bad for you. I really do.
01/10/2010 03:54:02 PM
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Yes it does. But it is not conscious. It comes from 15 years of growing up reading Wot..
01/10/2010 03:55:39 PM
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As if the rest of us haven't been reading for just as long.
04/10/2010 05:00:32 PM
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I've been reading the series sinc e EoTW hit bookshelves circa 1990
05/10/2010 11:10:08 PM
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It sounds like Rand is finally growing up
01/10/2010 03:46:54 PM
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He has achieved enlightenment and knows more than everyone else, so he doesn't have to be insecure..
01/10/2010 03:52:23 PM
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I don't agree - I think that what he is going to tell Egwene will be unpleasant for everyone.
01/10/2010 04:07:19 PM
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Why would that upset her?
01/10/2010 04:21:29 PM
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Because I think she was hoping to work with him to solve some of these problems
01/10/2010 04:42:33 PM
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I tend to agree
05/10/2010 01:41:22 AM
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The Sickness
01/10/2010 07:22:24 PM
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thoughts
01/10/2010 07:28:38 PM
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Re: thoughts
01/10/2010 08:36:18 PM
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Egwene
03/10/2010 02:57:38 AM
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Re: Egwene
04/10/2010 09:44:00 AM
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Nonsense
05/10/2010 03:52:31 AM
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Re: Nonsense
05/10/2010 09:53:06 AM
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seriously! Read what Egwene actually says sometime...
06/10/2010 08:17:15 PM
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Re: seriously! Read what Egwene actually says sometime...
06/10/2010 08:40:39 PM
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want to back that up with an actual quote from Egwene's mouth?
06/10/2010 11:01:09 PM
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Re: want to back that up with an actual quote from Egwene's mouth?
07/10/2010 09:45:21 PM
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Yes, but her comment is far closer to the truth than his!
07/10/2010 10:18:54 PM
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I'd say
08/10/2010 08:30:17 PM
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just like Egwene is 100% correct about AS being compelled
08/10/2010 10:31:03 PM
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Re: just like Egwene is 100% correct about AS being compelled
09/10/2010 11:46:54 AM
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And Egwene was the only person to do things like this? Elayne made a huge public show
09/10/2010 02:49:13 PM
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Fan...freakin...tastic. Had chills and watery eyes the whole time. This book is going to ROCK. *NM*
01/10/2010 08:18:20 PM
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I am so confused...
01/10/2010 09:45:32 PM
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Re: I am so confused...
01/10/2010 10:22:14 PM
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Re: I am so confused...
01/10/2010 11:21:32 PM
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That may have been an indirect result of using the TP, rather than a direct one
03/10/2010 03:30:24 AM
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I'm surprised no one has discussed Seanchan yet
01/10/2010 10:20:37 PM
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I believe the murderer is a random noble blamed for killing the royal family *NM*
02/10/2010 01:58:53 AM
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Moridin....
02/10/2010 04:03:34 PM
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I've seen it theorized (before chapter 1 was released) that
02/10/2010 04:39:09 PM
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I don't think...
02/10/2010 05:44:05 PM
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Re:TOM Chapter 1 Biblical Parallel
02/10/2010 08:31:35 PM
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dammit how am i supposed to read this without reading the prologue first? *NM*
03/10/2010 08:51:58 PM
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The revival of the Green Man?
03/10/2010 09:25:50 PM
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Re: The revival of the Green Man?
04/10/2010 11:49:54 PM
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You assume the supply of Souls is finite
05/10/2010 02:49:28 AM
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Yes
05/10/2010 02:08:10 PM
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That doesn't make sense
06/10/2010 04:14:54 AM
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you assume that a soul is tainted forever and not returned to a nutral state upon death.
06/10/2010 06:43:11 AM
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O... you assume I don't know my stuff
06/10/2010 02:35:06 PM
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Re: O... you assume I don't know my stuff
06/10/2010 06:38:49 PM
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Re: O... you assume I don't know my stuff
06/10/2010 10:20:35 PM
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ARGH! Spoilers! Spoilers! MINE EYES!!!!
14/10/2010 08:52:53 AM
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Or at least not click the threads CLEARLY designated as being about ToM.
24/10/2010 02:10:13 PM
- 1166 Views