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Re: My thought was not that they "dumbed it down" DomA Send a noteboard - 26/09/2010 11:42:12 PM
But rather that they made a decision to worry less about chronological integrity in the interest of resolving at least some important story arcs in each book.


I don't get what you mean by that. They didn't sacrifice chronological integrity one bit to get to a climax for Rand and Egwene, and they didn't have to.

I'm not complaining one bit that they pushed Perrin and Mat aside so they could resolve a great deal of things for Rand and Egwene.

That's not what I call dumbing it down either.

What I dislike about the chronology of TGS is how Brandon didn't adhere to Jordan's storytelling conventions. I dislike things like having a Seanchan story line scene set 20 days after Malden in the prologue, with a parallel Rand scene, then to have Rand's storyline move weeks ahead, and suddenly in the middle of nowhere, right before the Seanchan story line crossed Rand's, to have a Tuon scene set the day after the prologue scene, weeks before the upcoming meeting with Rand.

That's very lousy story telling. When he started jumping back and forth, Jordan regrouped chapters more. In his days of much faster POV switches (eg: TGH, but books like KOD too, which was a very good middle ground between the late series and the early series's paces), he was extremely cautious to avoid confusion and stuck to a more linear approach. Brandon wished a faster pace? Then he had to stay more linear, and keep at least Rand and Tuon in synch as their storylines crossed. Egwene was behind, and could remain behind until the end. It's pretty much as simple as that. Reader like you would have had the faster paced book you wished, and readers more like me would not have been put off by all the chronology screw ups and cheats that made it feel a lot less like WOT than it could have been, just with a few fixes and with a bit of polishing up.

If Brandon thought Tuon should appear first in mid-book for dramatic purposes (which is a defendable point), the normal (not just Jordan's) way to do it was to set the scene further on the timeline, and sacrifice the bit about Tylee entering the palace with a Trolloc head, as this happened weeks earlier. You have Tuon still hesitating about what to do - weeks later - balancing an attack on the WT or deciding to meet Rand, and suddenly reaching a decision to meet Rand first. That TGS... without the chronology screw up...

Either that, or you give up and simply put the scene earlier in the book. My opinion on what truly happened? RJ wrote the Tylee scene (like most of the prologue) and didn't outline the Tuon scene. Tuon was with the Mat cluster, and this one was not written when the decision was made to split the book. He knew she'd meet Rand and it would go badly, might even have written this as part of the Rand cluster. So, late in the game Brandon had a need for a few Tuon complementary scenes. Brandon scratched his head a bit, and decided to have the Tuon scene be the direct follow up to the Tylee sequence and the KOD epilogue scene. Brandon of his own admission doesn't master the chronology, so he put the scene where it made dramatic sense to him (and it does, the problem with it isn't that) and ended up with a scene totally misplaced in the chronology, and this was overlooked in the editing.

There's a lot of that in TGS, and it almost always concerned scenes outside the Egwene and Ran clusters, the two Brandon had finished when the decision was made to split the book. Most continuity errors or timeline problems and jumping around too much concerned Tuon, Mat, Perrin - and it speaks of last minute rush.

As for "dumbing it down", what I meant by that is it that it feels like a lot of secondary scenes are missing from TGS, to speed things up (and because a lot of those probably were left for the 5th, as yet unwritten POV cluster). I would include in this the near complete absence of any signs Graendal had put things in motion to accomplish her mission, and also the really shabby build up to her demise, and the dubious decision to make it a cliffhanger, when it made her apparent exit feel so rushed, so unsatisfying. Her absence simplified (dumbed down) Rand's story line. There are many more of those in Egwene's story line: there was no follow-up to BA hunters set-up with Alviarin from KOD. There was no proper set-up to the resolution of the too-young Sitters mystery. There was no proper aftermath to the exposure of Aran'gar among the rebels. Lelaine's plans to use Siuan and the circle was also not properly followed up. This all "simplifies" the story line, and dumbs it down. A lot of the RJ set up simply got wasted that way, for no good reason. Again, I don't think it was done on purpose, but rather because Brandon concentrated on Egwene's main storyline, to return to polish it up with minor scenes and allusion later. When the decision was made to split the book, he didn't have time to polish up in time for the deadline, and this got sacrificed.

This pleased the readers who didn't care for those minor story lines amd just wanted the damn thing to get resolved, but it displeased a lot of readers who invested their interest in them for many years and got cheated of their proper resolution. It also harms the previous books, because what's the interest of spotting the subtleties and all when you know by the end it will all go overboard? And a lot of the late series was concerned with those "details". For a lot of people like me, they were an integral part of the series, and we wanted to see them resolved as much as we wanted to see the Tower reunited and the Seanchan attack. And yes, I think if the price to "speed things up" to cater to the more impatient readers was that (but as I said, I don't think it's at all the reason why they were skipped) then yes it was too high a price, as it has dumbed things down.

And you're wrong it's only maniacs who cared. A lot of the casual readers I spoke too, people who read the series only once and don't post or read MB anywhere, have commented to me they found TGS cool yet felt a bit rushed. I even had to explain to my next door neighbour who read TGS a while ago that the AH scene at the end resolved the too-young sitters mystery. She asked me what had happened to them, and also mentionned her disappointement Alviarin wasn't involved in any way in the BA hunt resolution. She read the books once as they come out or so, so that's hardly a fan-only issue.

To address your beliefs that most fans were pissed off with Jordan and Harriet/Brandon adjusted the book to these opinions, I strongly disagree with you.

I think you're quite wrong to think most fans are so disappointed. Why I think is that a portion of the online fanbase is very disappointed, and often very vocal about it. But it's a minority of the really disappointed readers who are still around and complain loudly. Most people who don't love a book or series anymore simply stop reading. If such a percentage of Jordan's readers were so disappointed, and for so many books, then this would be heavily reflected in the sales. I do know many people who quit along the way, but the sales have not plumeted, so the vast majority of readers are forcibly bearing with Jordan.

The complaint I heard the most often from casual readers (and I know many) isn't that the book got boring and Jordan lost his way. Nah... what they told me most often is that it's not that they weren't enjoying the books, it's that the recent books had become quite complex, and published too far apart, for them to be able to read them only once and get into them. They complained that by the time they really got back into it and placed everyone and all, half the book was over. It's very similar to the criticism we get from casual readers of complex series, like Erikson's, or Martin's. It's difficult works for casual readers, unless they wait until it's all over until it's finished.

A lot of people really got stuck with their frustration with COT. An interesting experience (which I made with a friend) was to have her read KOD straight after. COT frustrated her not at all. She barely noticed it was "slow", rather commented it made a good set up for KOD...

We definitely pay a price for having to wait for each new book. It taints our perspective, and it tends to stick with us long after.



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Jason's review... Looks like DomA was right (Review is now removed) - 25/09/2010 05:40:18 AM 3412 Views
Re: Jason's review (spoilerish thoughts from me, so BEWARE!). Looks like DomA was right - 25/09/2010 06:00:46 AM 1237 Views
Pretty sure it's not Egwene... - 25/09/2010 07:07:00 AM 1169 Views
Oh well - I was wrong - 27/09/2010 03:56:59 PM 884 Views
Ituralde - 25/09/2010 06:29:26 AM 999 Views
Read the ToM rules - 25/09/2010 07:44:22 AM 922 Views
I officially hate reviews of WoT (in general) - 25/09/2010 08:10:43 AM 1004 Views
I take Jason's reviews with a pinch of salt - 25/09/2010 09:45:10 AM 1068 Views
Re: I take Jason's reviews with a pinch of salt - 25/09/2010 03:50:40 PM 912 Views
Perrin will probably gather the wolves... - 25/09/2010 09:57:06 AM 1061 Views
I suppose Olver could be the one who takes off Mat's eye *NM* - 25/09/2010 10:01:17 AM 487 Views
The review is now gone. *NM* - 25/09/2010 04:10:59 PM 492 Views
Unfortunately, there's not much left for Elayne to do. - 25/09/2010 07:14:09 PM 1103 Views
I haven't read the review but... - 25/09/2010 07:22:48 PM 1493 Views
That's not what I meant... - 25/09/2010 08:25:42 PM 1090 Views
It's odd, I didn't see any reference to Rand descending from DM in his review. - 25/09/2010 08:39:33 PM 923 Views
It was the very last line... - 25/09/2010 08:55:49 PM 1031 Views
Re: It was the very last line... - 25/09/2010 09:03:14 PM 915 Views
Re: It was the very last line... - 25/09/2010 09:54:28 PM 896 Views
Re: It was the very last line... - 25/09/2010 10:09:58 PM 1160 Views
Mike quit being obsessed about 6 years ago (maybe longer?) - 25/09/2010 10:46:23 PM 992 Views
Re: Mike quit being obsessed about 6 years ago (maybe longer?) - 26/09/2010 01:11:52 AM 995 Views
I blame JordanCon too. - 26/09/2010 02:17:50 AM 1053 Views
Regarding the WOTFAQ, Tam, - 26/09/2010 10:04:40 PM 969 Views
Re: Regarding the WOTFAQ, Tam, - 27/09/2010 07:20:11 AM 949 Views
Re: Regarding the WOTFAQ, Tam, - 27/09/2010 11:03:35 AM 966 Views
Re: I blame JordanCon too. - 27/09/2010 01:07:59 AM 1036 Views
Re: I blame JordanCon too. - 27/09/2010 07:35:04 AM 991 Views
Re: That's not what I meant... - 25/09/2010 09:49:17 PM 1197 Views
Some thoughts on a potential meeting... - 26/09/2010 05:11:06 AM 1110 Views
Regarding Brandon's messing up of the timelines... - 25/09/2010 11:34:06 PM 1059 Views
To me it's two different things - 26/09/2010 01:48:13 AM 1148 Views
I agree - 26/09/2010 03:09:04 AM 948 Views
My thought was not that they "dumbed it down" - 26/09/2010 03:50:36 AM 1023 Views
Re: My thought was not that they "dumbed it down" - 26/09/2010 11:42:12 PM 1214 Views
KOD and TOM show where TGS could have been 'fixed' - 26/09/2010 10:27:04 AM 952 Views
Re: KOD and TOM show where TGS could have been 'fixed' - 26/09/2010 09:35:41 PM 1077 Views
Whose really to blame though? - 27/09/2010 03:43:30 AM 929 Views
A suggestion? - 26/09/2010 11:39:08 AM 1075 Views
Is there a copy of the review somewhere? *NM* - 27/09/2010 01:40:22 AM 575 Views
The review is back up... - 27/09/2010 01:59:50 AM 931 Views
It wasn't quite identical... It was missing the line about Rand walking down from DM - 27/09/2010 06:42:47 AM 929 Views
The line about Rand wasn't there when I read the review Saturday morning either. *NM* - 27/09/2010 01:57:00 PM 423 Views
It was... - 27/09/2010 04:22:24 PM 782 Views
I must have missed it then. It does fit with Tor's not releasing Chapter 1 early. *NM* - 27/09/2010 05:06:36 PM 431 Views
What do you mean? - 27/09/2010 11:33:15 PM 839 Views
It was at the very bottom of the post and hard to find - 28/09/2010 12:44:56 AM 730 Views
Olver - 27/09/2010 11:34:40 AM 1079 Views
He's Demandred, natch. - 27/09/2010 03:54:09 PM 825 Views
Re: Olver - 27/09/2010 05:42:25 PM 884 Views
Re: Olver darkfriend? - 28/09/2010 12:02:11 AM 939 Views
'Tis a shame. I love spoilers. - 27/09/2010 03:16:02 PM 947 Views
One problem with the idea of a Rand-Egwene meeting in Chapter 1 beyond timeline issues - 27/09/2010 10:29:15 PM 863 Views
Not true... - 28/09/2010 01:00:40 AM 851 Views
Good call. I assumed, and still do, that the two events are one in the same. - 28/09/2010 01:10:13 AM 926 Views
I don't think so... - 28/09/2010 01:47:40 AM 783 Views
Re: I don't think so... - 28/09/2010 02:00:59 AM 836 Views
Re: I don't think so... - 28/09/2010 03:07:08 AM 1667 Views
Not true indeed... and.... - 28/09/2010 02:24:00 AM 1087 Views
Mesaana and the Foretelling... - 28/09/2010 03:31:24 AM 816 Views
Re: Mesaana and the Foretelling... - 13/10/2010 01:32:12 AM 1149 Views

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