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Re: According to Fionwe she isn't using the angreal Sidious Send a noteboard - 25/09/2010 09:38:41 AM
Do everything she did without an angreal! Even with her weak angreal she may not have been able to do this! Instead of trying to prove something impossible from the chapter start thinking about what would make Graendal's acts doable. Two options:

1. She had her angreal and it was stronger than we've previously given it credit for
2. Aran'gar was not holding the Power and was caught by surprise. Her Gasp could mean anything.

Your supposition that Graendal's statement of losing objects of the power is silly since she could have had dozen's on ter'angs for all we know!


But Graendal does have an angreal. I really can't believe that you're trying to place a definitive value on the power of this object and using it as evidence that Graendal was too weak to do all those things. As another poster said, if the angreal made her only 50% stronger, it would be a more than suitable explanation, and it would make it the weakest known angreal in the series by far.

Harping on the fact that Graendal claims that it's a weak angreal is very poor evidence because Elayne makes a similar statement about her cache of angreal and they appear to provide an immense advantage to the casual reader.

I think you're ignoring a very important fact that a male channeler cannot sense saidar at all, bar the goosebumps. It's like suggesting that Saroiya would have sensed Narishma's weave of Spirit around her for some obscure reason. The channeler only senses a disturbance to their connection when they try to pull on the Source. There are a lot of examples of this, and I'm quite surprised you're trying to refute them all.


I was the poster who made the comment about it making her 50% stronger too ... the point here is that she should not be strong enough without some enhancement to do all the things she did ... this is why I don't accept the "Gasp" as evidence that she cut Aran'gar off from the Power, ... she would have needed the angreal to do that IMO ... this I base on an entire series of hearing that men are stronger than women and that it's harder to shield someone of the opposite sex ... the list goes on ... even IF Graendal was stronger than Aran'gar it's not likely that she's enough stronger to have been able to shield her and Delana and make a Gateway without the angreal since even Nynaeve under less stressful circumstances could not slam a shield on Elayne who is obviously weaker.

As for the sensing a shield, who is to say what someone with as much OP knowledge as the AOL Channelers have can sense? We learned tons of new information about the TP in the same chapter ... we have no indication that Aran'gar couldn't sense that she had been shielded.

We know that the angreal she possessed is amongst the weakest in the series, but have no indication of what it really offered. Another poster commented that Graendal's assessment of the angreal indicates that it must be weak enough to not seem like an enhancement ... I disagree with that, but it's why I phrased the above the way I did.

If that angreal added a 50% lift to her natural strength and she did in fact use it I can believe that she could cut Aran'gar and Delana off and weave the gateway. But without the angreal I find that scenario ridiculous.


A lot of these may be deliberate or casual 'errors' by Brandon. I think someone should ask him this directly.

He may have used Graendal's acquisition of an angreal as an open key to allow her to do anything. All he has to do is say that she's got an angreal, and we can't really refute his claim. Or he can do what RJ used to do... claim that the said person has a Talent.

I think Graendal wove the gateway and tied it off because she says later that she struggles to close it, which implies that she couldn't unravel the knot in time. She then shielded the two at once, which is a monumental feat considering one is a male Forsaken. She then bound them in Air. Never more than two flows at once.
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Towers of Midnight : Prologue discussion - 21/09/2010 04:38:40 AM 8412 Views
Me Too! Guess who is alive!! - 21/09/2010 04:44:40 AM 2158 Views
A dove, that's weird - 21/09/2010 03:19:10 PM 1902 Views
Re: A dove, that's weird - 21/09/2010 03:26:39 PM 1851 Views
Yes, that's the point - 21/09/2010 11:49:00 PM 1700 Views
It did feel a bit deus ex machina - 22/09/2010 12:03:05 AM 1812 Views
Fain is as creepy as ever - 21/09/2010 05:06:35 AM 1925 Views
You all can go to heck (and find me a link!) *NM* - 21/09/2010 05:10:47 AM 1206 Views
Re: You all can go to heck (and find me a link!) - 21/09/2010 05:14:26 AM 2019 Views
It's D/L on B&N now *NM* - 21/09/2010 05:15:44 AM 1105 Views
Anyone find the audiobook version? *NM* - 21/09/2010 10:20:22 AM 1075 Views
I love the borderlanders - 21/09/2010 05:25:29 AM 1883 Views
Best scene of the prologue *NM* - 21/09/2010 03:28:28 PM 1155 Views
Could somebody post a link to where they got it? I want to go to a site where I can download now *NM* - 21/09/2010 05:39:13 AM 1068 Views
I posted some links here - 21/09/2010 06:04:38 AM 1754 Views
My quick summary - 21/09/2010 06:02:41 AM 2525 Views
Whoa, whoa, whoa. - 23/09/2010 02:59:37 AM 1599 Views
It's good, but... Perrin. Ugh. - 21/09/2010 07:37:43 AM 1932 Views
Awesome! - 21/09/2010 09:00:45 AM 1698 Views
Regarding Graendal - 21/09/2010 10:12:42 AM 2197 Views
Some things... - 21/09/2010 01:18:10 PM 1768 Views
I'm glad. Being right is a good feeling - 21/09/2010 04:12:08 PM 1714 Views
a very weak angreal - 21/09/2010 04:55:15 PM 1726 Views
Even a weak angreal - 21/09/2010 05:47:26 PM 1658 Views
The Angreal Elayne mentions made her 2x as strong as Nynaeve - 21/09/2010 06:04:21 PM 1532 Views
The laughter in Perrin's Dream - 21/09/2010 02:24:14 PM 1786 Views
Probably Slayer - 21/09/2010 04:29:41 PM 1656 Views
Re: Probably Slayer - 21/09/2010 04:39:36 PM 1463 Views
Audio Book - 21/09/2010 06:39:54 PM 1597 Views
Not even Ishamael could shield another male Forsaken and an Aes Sedai at the same time... - 21/09/2010 06:46:42 PM 1802 Views
It's different (I think?) but I'm certainly no expert and I'm sure someone else will reply - 21/09/2010 06:57:18 PM 1714 Views
OK, I haven't read the scene, so I don't know if Arangar was holding saidin at the time or not - 21/09/2010 07:00:23 PM 1527 Views
Re: OK, I haven't read the scene, so I don't know if Arangar was holding saidin at the time or not. - 21/09/2010 07:11:42 PM 1633 Views
Thanks. Was Arangar channeling at the time? - 21/09/2010 07:13:53 PM 1619 Views
I think so, yes. - 21/09/2010 07:15:44 PM 1558 Views
I don't think so actually - 21/09/2010 07:57:42 PM 1646 Views
I don't think Aran'gar was channeling - 21/09/2010 11:00:22 PM 1609 Views
I don't think she even closed her Gateway. It think it was BF'd *NM* - 21/09/2010 11:52:01 PM 930 Views
no she wasn't *NM* - 21/09/2010 10:25:13 PM 1040 Views
nope, no power - 23/09/2010 03:05:30 AM 1480 Views
So here's what happens... - 21/09/2010 07:15:03 PM 1998 Views
Thanks. A few comments... - 21/09/2010 07:27:33 PM 1480 Views
I don't rule out the angreal... - 21/09/2010 07:32:40 PM 1515 Views
Elayne's weakest angreal doubles her strength. Graendal x2 can easily shield Cyndane+Moggy, so... - 21/09/2010 07:35:06 PM 1648 Views
Graendal's seemed much weaker... - 21/09/2010 07:52:20 PM 1517 Views
Elayne also called the x2 turtle angreal "weak"... - 21/09/2010 08:00:01 PM 1523 Views
and we know it wasn't enough to overwhlem Verin's circle - 21/09/2010 08:02:13 PM 1367 Views
I disasgree. There is no evidence that Aran'gar was holding saidin at the time - 21/09/2010 07:42:23 PM 1462 Views
Then why did she gasp at the shield? She couldn't have known what Graendal was weaving. - 21/09/2010 07:52:49 PM 1497 Views
because she was surprised that Graendal would put a shield on her in the first place - 21/09/2010 07:58:45 PM 1513 Views
How did she know there was a shield? - 21/09/2010 09:16:59 PM 1472 Views
Fact: Graendal cannot shield a male Forsaken and an Aes Sedai if they are holding the Source... - 21/09/2010 09:28:17 PM 1466 Views
Who said "they"? - 21/09/2010 09:55:28 PM 1441 Views
I really don't think you have to be holding the source to know you've been shielded - 21/09/2010 10:29:20 PM 1415 Views
Provide evidence? - 21/09/2010 10:36:36 PM 1467 Views
Thanks, but like I said, they were both wrapped in air. That's enough for Aran'gar to wonder - 21/09/2010 10:44:17 PM 1378 Views
They gasped before Graendal wove Air... - 21/09/2010 11:13:48 PM 1446 Views
Alright, you win *NM* - 22/09/2010 02:51:26 AM 972 Views
*NM* - 22/09/2010 03:06:22 AM 838 Views
Siuan was distracted by a number of other things going on, not to mention how suspect - 22/09/2010 02:43:36 PM 1363 Views
And Aran'gar was fully focussed on Graendal? - 22/09/2010 03:02:16 PM 1599 Views
More so than Siuan was on Elaida when they were shielded. - 22/09/2010 03:33:15 PM 2379 Views
So? - 22/09/2010 03:48:11 PM 1303 Views
It doesn't matter. There are more Shieldings that go unnoticed when not holding the Source - 22/09/2010 03:55:48 PM 1408 Views
Nice catches! - 22/09/2010 04:06:52 PM 1506 Views
we don't know that - 22/09/2010 02:35:50 PM 1444 Views
Huh? - 22/09/2010 03:03:52 PM 1384 Views
Give over, Darius... there's plenty of evidence... - 22/09/2010 03:45:11 PM 1434 Views
Give over what? There is no hard evidence that Aran'gar wouldn't notice a shield put on her - 22/09/2010 05:00:11 PM 1343 Views
What rot... (also, Egwene and Rand) - 22/09/2010 05:21:08 PM 1449 Views
take a pill Fionwe ... no need to go batshit on me for having an opinion. - 22/09/2010 05:38:21 PM 1428 Views
Re: take a pill Fionwe ... no need to go batshit on me for having an opinion. - 22/09/2010 05:45:05 PM 1549 Views
if it was JUST one shield ... but she's shielding an AS and weaving a Gateway too! - 22/09/2010 05:48:52 PM 3466 Views
Well... - 22/09/2010 07:00:26 PM 1482 Views
She says... - 22/09/2010 07:04:32 PM 1483 Views
no one is arguing that - 22/09/2010 07:09:17 PM 1422 Views
Er... - 22/09/2010 07:19:09 PM 1381 Views
I'm contending that it's possible Aran'gar snesed she'd been shielded - 22/09/2010 07:20:48 PM 2209 Views
Re: I'm contending that it's possible Aran'gar snesed she'd been shielded - 22/09/2010 07:26:52 PM 2177 Views
Again, I just find that option completely unlikely since Graendals angreal isn't all that strong - 22/09/2010 07:39:02 PM 1435 Views
You've made a long list of channelers "incompetant" and "untrained". Enough. - 23/09/2010 01:53:25 AM 1519 Views
Re: You've made a long list of channelers "incompetant" and "untrained". Enough. - 23/09/2010 03:42:31 PM 1419 Views
- 23/09/2010 03:54:02 PM 1421 Views
Re: . The evidence is that no channeled is that strong! - 23/09/2010 04:04:02 PM 1544 Views
Really? - 23/09/2010 06:11:00 PM 1504 Views
Re: Really? - 23/09/2010 09:56:09 PM 1373 Views
That's my point *NM* - 24/09/2010 12:20:45 AM 974 Views
Re: She says... - 22/09/2010 07:12:48 PM 1426 Views
Exactly. - 23/09/2010 01:54:05 AM 1414 Views
The way it reads she is holding open a Gateway, then slams shields on both - 22/09/2010 07:08:17 PM 1399 Views
Continue being irrational then... - 22/09/2010 05:46:19 PM 1503 Views
Re: Continue being irrational then... - 22/09/2010 05:53:05 PM 1368 Views
Re: Continue being irrational then... - 22/09/2010 07:03:02 PM 1381 Views
Nope - 22/09/2010 07:19:30 PM 1280 Views
Re: Nope - 23/09/2010 02:06:35 AM 1438 Views
Toveine! Now THAT is a good catch, fionwe! - 23/09/2010 07:57:05 AM 1545 Views
Sidious pointed it out, actually. But thanks! - 23/09/2010 03:55:29 PM 1422 Views
And you ignore all the evidence in the series that definitively makes it impossible for Graendal to - 23/09/2010 03:57:49 PM 1314 Views
Well... - 23/09/2010 04:31:27 PM 1495 Views
According to Fionwe she isn't using the angreal - 24/09/2010 11:18:30 PM 1628 Views
Re: According to Fionwe she isn't using the angreal - 25/09/2010 09:38:41 AM 1479 Views
Re: Continue being irrational then... - 24/09/2010 03:20:49 AM 1594 Views
Oh come on.. be real - 22/09/2010 05:39:51 PM 1393 Views
see that's an argument that makes more sense to me - 22/09/2010 05:47:17 PM 1475 Views
Re: How did she know there was a shield? - 24/09/2010 04:42:25 AM 1416 Views
You'[re missing the part about the bonds of air as well - 21/09/2010 11:06:04 PM 1409 Views
No. The sequence was shield-gasp-tie off shield-wrap in Air. *NM* - 21/09/2010 11:14:41 PM 1017 Views
We have seen people holding the source caught off guard by a shield *NM* - 22/09/2010 12:10:48 AM 968 Views
Well, exactly! - 22/09/2010 02:01:12 AM 1469 Views
What I think happened - 22/09/2010 09:19:57 AM 1439 Views
It's not the male/female issue. It's a Forsaken vs Forsaken issue... - 22/09/2010 10:06:47 AM 1396 Views
Re: It's not the male/female issue. It's a Forsaken vs Forsaken issue... - 22/09/2010 01:31:52 PM 1473 Views
Fair point. - 22/09/2010 02:07:05 PM 1458 Views
I think it also bears mentioning that ... - 22/09/2010 04:17:17 PM 1472 Views
Graendal knew Aran'gar was distracted - 23/09/2010 07:10:52 AM 1383 Views
About shielding a channeler holding the Source... - 22/09/2010 05:51:34 PM 2489 Views
Re: About shielding a channeler holding the Source... - 22/09/2010 07:04:37 PM 2929 Views
The angreal makes this an unnecessary debate... - 22/09/2010 07:09:20 PM 1382 Views
she never shielded them - 22/09/2010 07:22:29 PM 1389 Views
True...But it made her strong enough to easily overcome both... - 22/09/2010 07:28:12 PM 1339 Views
This I can believe ... it's just problematic since the angreal isn't mentioned - 22/09/2010 07:51:19 PM 1441 Views
Re: This I can believe ... it's just problematic since the angreal isn't mentioned - 22/09/2010 07:54:18 PM 1395 Views
LMAO... nice! - 22/09/2010 08:24:20 PM 1412 Views
I think we need to place Aran'gar lower too.. - 22/09/2010 07:10:29 PM 1476 Views
A lot of unsubstantiated assumptions there... - 22/09/2010 07:13:51 PM 1318 Views
I would agree - 22/09/2010 07:22:50 PM 1468 Views
Re: I would agree - 22/09/2010 07:25:46 PM 1329 Views
Re: A lot of unsubstantiated assumptions there... - 23/09/2010 03:03:26 AM 1401 Views
Mostly agree - 22/09/2010 07:23:53 PM 1386 Views
Re: Mostly agree - 22/09/2010 07:28:42 PM 1348 Views
I am starting to believe that RJ didn't think quite so literally - 22/09/2010 08:07:45 PM 1406 Views
Not sure if you agreed with this before, but I reached this point awhile ago bwahaha - 22/09/2010 08:53:42 PM 1439 Views
I've been on this side for a good long while - 22/09/2010 09:40:43 PM 1534 Views
*NM* - 28/09/2010 11:54:54 PM 928 Views
Well there is one thing to consider about this - 21/09/2010 07:32:44 PM 1650 Views
So there are 6 Forsaken left. - 21/09/2010 10:23:22 PM 1691 Views
For the record - 21/09/2010 10:53:16 PM 1585 Views
She opened two Gateways, IIRC - 21/09/2010 11:58:29 PM 1466 Views
Re: She opened two Gateways, IIRC - 22/09/2010 02:21:47 AM 1498 Views
Wait...so NO ONE has wanted to discuss the Sapphic scene at Graendal's place? - 22/09/2010 03:48:36 AM 1636 Views
yes, totally Lesbian. *NM* - 22/09/2010 03:04:16 PM 975 Views
No, the other L word. "LesbiAHNS?" *NM* - 22/09/2010 04:18:55 PM 1028 Views
Yes, it was totally lesbian. - 22/09/2010 07:09:19 PM 1432 Views
No, not at all. Aran'gar is still a dude at heart. I think. *NM* - 22/09/2010 08:18:55 PM 994 Views
I tend to agree - 23/09/2010 05:42:52 PM 1443 Views
Lady parts + Lady parts = Lesbian sex - 24/09/2010 11:24:36 PM 2059 Views
Yes, but its still a little off - 25/09/2010 09:40:16 AM 1488 Views
Transgender is a little convoluted I suppose - 25/09/2010 04:41:33 PM 1643 Views
Re: Transgender is a little convoluted I suppose - 25/09/2010 05:25:10 PM 1549 Views
What does Graendal think of Rand? - 22/09/2010 02:00:28 PM 1614 Views
She was really surprised and scared. - 22/09/2010 02:11:28 PM 1577 Views
I take it you haven't read the Prologue. - 22/09/2010 02:16:49 PM 1455 Views
Quite a bit... - 22/09/2010 02:31:14 PM 1614 Views
Agreed, she's been worrying about him since the begining - 22/09/2010 03:18:48 PM 1647 Views
Thanks for the answers *NM* - 22/09/2010 05:46:05 PM 935 Views
Second best prologue ever... - 22/09/2010 06:24:44 PM 1839 Views
It's my favorite ever. Only one dark spot tarnished it. - 22/09/2010 07:18:12 PM 1483 Views
Yeah, tEotW is the best... - 22/09/2010 08:22:12 PM 1510 Views
Aran'gar is a tool - 22/09/2010 07:31:36 PM 1650 Views
Yes. s/He was. - 22/09/2010 08:59:16 PM 1483 Views
Shadow invading Kandor and Lan riding trough it. CONNECTION? - 22/09/2010 08:36:05 PM 1648 Views
- 23/09/2010 04:47:11 PM 1554 Views
Nice prologue, but not superb, IMO - 23/09/2010 05:45:41 PM 1573 Views
Re: Nice prologue, but not superb, IMO - 23/09/2010 09:54:33 PM 1543 Views
I believe that Sanderson concocted the entire Graendal/Rand/Balefire part - 23/09/2010 10:24:46 PM 2192 Views
I had a similar thought, but... - 23/09/2010 10:40:58 PM 1498 Views
Probably not Sanderson - 23/09/2010 11:11:54 PM 1531 Views
No way - 24/09/2010 07:14:35 AM 1457 Views
I agree. *NM* - 25/09/2010 09:42:46 AM 994 Views
A few nits - 12/10/2010 10:21:27 AM 1464 Views
Canadian Download site - 29/09/2010 12:05:12 AM 1954 Views

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