Active Users:887 Time:19/12/2024 05:53:37 AM
Re: Actually, didn't RJ do the Forsaken infodump thing too? DomA Send a noteboard - 24/09/2010 05:36:23 PM
What about where Sammael & Semirhage conspicuously each reveal his and her roles in the Trolloc fight in the Stone of Tear? Or Slayer revealing that he was the one who killed the Black Ajah prisoners? Fain's recollection of his murder of the Aybaras?


RJ was just a bit more subtle at it. It flowed a bit better under his penship. He had Semirhage mention her role in the context of a scene where she feared what secret orders could have been given to the other Chosen by Shai'tan.

It wasn't a major departure. Brandon just overdid it. I doubt RJ would have had Graendal ponder that much about the True Power (and not twice in the chapter) - and that this weave is used to control ravens and rats Jordan would have left us puzzle out for ourselves. Likely he would have seized the occasion to give a perspective on the True Power that isn't Moridin's - it served as set up for Rand's use later.

** spoilers **

My intuition is that this scene is a reworking/merging of fragments both written and others only outlined by RJ.

My guess is that RJ had somethign like this structure in mind:

Either the scene with Moridin and Graendal was to be there early in the AMOL prologue (it was clearly not one written by RJ unlike most of the prologue, and not a terribly RJ-like scene, period) then followed by a second scene at Graendal's palace later in the prologue, or perhaps more likely and in line with RJ's love of "multi-purposes" POVs, the visit to Moridin was only referred to at (much greater) length in Graendal's original POV (with Aran'gar), and Brandon turned this into a "prequel" scene for the TGS prologue, which he wrote himself.

I think RJ's original scene had Graendal reflecting on her visit to Moridin, and then return her thoughts to her present visitor, Aran'gar (with Delana).

Jordan had set it all up well: elements of foreshadowing for Aran'gar included a) plans for Rand, b) plans to "misuse" Graendal's networks, c) hopes to get rid of Moridin d) her displeasure with Demandred/Mesaana - and her alliance with Graendal.

This all makes sense now. When we read Graendal's original prologue scene, we would learn about new orders and her new favour with Moridin (no need to show that scene, showing she's been granted a bit of the True Power, reflecting on the humilitation of Mesaana/Demandred in her presence, on the fact she knows who Mesaana is, what Semirhage was up to - but is still looking for Demandred, the recent disfavour of these three and Aran'gar that opens a wide door for her etc. was more than enough to establish it - and typically the sort of tangential stuff Jordan loved to use in Graendal's POVs) , and we would go "uh oh.... Aran'gar has plans to seize Graendal's network and she wants to kill Rand... Graendal is better watch her back, because the clever games she plans for Rand, and her new hopes to be second only to Moridin will be messed with by Aran'gar, and go totally awry".

The TP foreplay (the sex scene with Delana was quite weird, and contradicts Aran'gar's POV on lesbianism in KOD some: she wasn't Delana's lover, she wanted to try this with Graendal..), and the fact a second Forsaken was now granted it, set up and mirrored Rand's used of it later - reminded us how seductive and addictive it was and all. Nynaeve's involvement with Rand's search for Graendal made more sense, if Graendal made her threats against her in the prologue. Typical RJ.

In Arad Doman, we would have been puzzled, never knowing for sure if events followed Graendal's plans or we were watching interference from Aran'gar (did Aran'gar arranged to leave a trail to Graendal's palace, and so on). We could never be sure if Rand was in danger of falling in a trap (of Aran'gar), or was just caught in Graendal's nets. Evacuating Aran'gar from the equation until TOM was a total waste. When Rand started planning to find and kill Graendal, we would have thought "uh oh.. watch out Rand, your plan is to defeat a convoluted schemer, but there's not one but two Forsaken waiting for you, and one is not at all the subtle player you expect but a rash loose cannon...". We would have wondered how it would all play out, if Aran'gar would betray Graendal or if Graendal woudl figure her games out and use her, what Graendal could do in the confrontation since she could use the True Power and so on. The actual outcome would have been really exciting, in a single sequence.

Typically, Jordan would never have opted for a lame flashback scene, straight from the George Lucas school of badly handled plot twists and cliffhangers. Graendal's fate would either have been split in two: a short POV of her or Aran'gar right beforeRamsalan's arrival (the bit of the Graendal POV which is most un-Jordan like in style - Brandon even forgot to have her assume her Basene disguise before Ramsalan calls her by this name - and the old solitary ailing noblewoman became "a merchant family";), followed by a Graendal's POV (from using the dove to the end) right after Rand balefired her palace.

In short, a proper set-up prologue POV, and an exciting Rand and Graendal sequence, with both their POVs in a row. Brandon screwed it all up by making this a lame cliffhangeer. Graendal, Aran'gar and their respective plans were largely evacuated from TGS, where they set up the threat to Rand. It's only now we get some inkling of how Graendal was dealing with Rand, now when it's absolutely irrelevant! Graendal was way, way too distant a threat in TGS as a result, and Aran'gar's story became a long boring and rather predictable plot device that seems to have fallen into some hole after KOD to come back the last minute to Graendal's deux ex machina. Her near demise, instead of being a proper climax with a surprising conclusion (that wrapped up the Arad Doman storyline, as it happens: Graendal was leaving to return in a now unpredictable way, and soon Rand would leave), became a highly disappointing downer, with an apparent very lame demise for one of the better characterized Forsaken of the lot - a demise I'm convinced Jordan never planned to make a stupid cliffganger with for more than a few pages... No, Rand's failure with Graendal served the dramatic purpose. We were meant to know right away Rand's plan had indeed weakened the Pattern a lot, and made Graendal safer, more elusive and more dangerous. Too many readers missed the point in TGS and applauded Rand's decision to use the CK to balefire a whole palace.

As happy as am I that Graendal is alive for the LB (I dreaded being stuck with Moghedien and Lamendred, sub-Lanfear and the ever boring Aran'gar as villains) and indifferent to the fact I failed to predict her survival (I still expect too much things as Jordan would have done, not as Brandon might decide to do...), I'm totally unimpressed with the way Brandon handled this. The interesting thing about this scene is that Graendal comes up alive. The scene itself has little impact (you figure out Graendal will survive right away, and pretty much how) or interest, and the actual way in which she survives is contrived. It makes Aran'gar a much greater moron than she actually is.

I would have much preferred

1) A prologue scene in TGS comprising elements seen in the TGS prologue (as reflection/thoughts) and the beginning of the scene with Aran'gar now in Distinctions. Graendal is much, much more "in character" in the beginning of this scene than she was in TGS - including stuff Brandon had overlooked then (he had Graendal enjoying the view in TGS.. and return to her loathing of nature in this new scene!). As we know, Jordan himself wrote most of the original prologue, and I think he wrote advanced drafts of this scene.

2) The middle of the scene, with Ramsalan, bears many signs of being totally invented by Brandon. We're back to the "silly"/buffoonesque depiction of Domani nobles that is un-Jordan like (too obvious, Jordan would have shown him as a fool, not have Rand/Graendal tell us he is). In Jordan's hands, we would not have gotten this scene at all. It was useless and pedestrian. All we needed was to show Ramsalan back with Rand, and than the surprise bit after Graendal escaped that she got Delana/Aran'gar to compel Ramsalan.

3) Then, right after Rand's attack, as a second POV, the remaining part of the scene (the counterpoint to Rand's scene in TGS), which seems to have been outlined only by Jordan as too many details are off in characterization, style and plot details. It seems to me Jordan only put down that Graendal would get Aran'gar and Delana to compel Ramsalan, but Brandon came up with the details. It's terribly contrived. The BA doesn't know Compulsion, at least not Graendal's style. Even Verin has put together only a half-baked version of it, and Liandrin's is a pitiful thing. Why would a middling too-young Sitter BA who used to need Siuan's patronage during their early years have been taught Compulsion? By whom? Obviously, this was up to Graendal to teach her at the last minute. As for asking Aran'gar straight out to compel Ramsalan, this was very lame, very un-Forsaken like. Aran'gar is an idiot, but not so much an idiot that she would not have suspected Graendal's motive for asking her to weave Compulsion with saidin on a man she was to send out to Rand, when Rand was at her doorstep! Also, this is the first time we see the weave of compulsion itself being used this way (the weave itself including the orders). That's wrong. Always before, what the net of compulsion does is open the brain to orders, create a feeling of adoration/awe and make the subject totally receptive to . The orders are then given verbally. Graendal is so good at it because she's a psychiatrist and knows how to read a mind and manipulate it, not because her Compulsion weave is more intricate than others'.... Delana should just have opened Ramsalan, and Graendal could have given him her convoluted, subtle orders herself. Mind reading appears to be possible (Ishamael seems to have done it in TGH)... using the True Power.

Another thing that isn't properly set up is Graendal puzzling out what Rand was up to. In Jordan's hands, she would have had reports about his increasing darkness, Semirhage's death, his new attitude toward women of his inner circle. Graendal would have known Rand was on the edge, and while Lews Therin would never, never have done such a thing, maybe al'Thor was frustrated, maddened and far gone enough to do something as irrational and crazy as balefiring a whole palace to kill her... In Brandon's hands, that solution merely pops up in Graendal's head out of the blue. One second she thinks of Rand one way, the next she is convincedt he's about to do this un-LTT like, completely mad and destructive attack just to get rid of her. Not even Graendal has that big an ego that she would think Rand would destroy the whole palace and kill so many to get rid of her - not without analyzing accurately his present state of mind, as Jordan's Graendal would have done.

Lame, alas, though it redeems Jordan's plans for Graendal in my eyes (even though it was a downer in Brandon's hands), and I'm most happy to have been wrong that she died. As a bonus, the annoying Aran'gar's gone, short and sweet, and for good this time.
This message last edited by DomA on 24/09/2010 at 05:46:12 PM
Reply to message
mistakes sanderson makes that bug you - 23/09/2010 05:38:52 PM 1754 Views
Please read the posting rules for ToM *NM* - 23/09/2010 05:41:12 PM 3764 Views
Bael mentioning the Aiel Waste; characters using words that are too sophisticated or techical - 23/09/2010 06:11:34 PM 982 Views
I completely agree... - 23/09/2010 08:54:17 PM 835 Views
Re: I completely agree... - 24/09/2010 01:57:38 AM 763 Views
Re: I completely agree... - 24/09/2010 06:39:17 PM 725 Views
The entire Graendal scene - 23/09/2010 06:27:03 PM 883 Views
I think this is the type of info that RJ never got around to revealing. - 23/09/2010 08:46:51 PM 723 Views
Pretty much... - 23/09/2010 09:16:26 PM 838 Views
The writing in the Graendal scene surprised me - 24/09/2010 12:20:50 AM 745 Views
Re: The writing in the Graendal scene surprised me - 24/09/2010 06:03:17 PM 741 Views
Actually, didn't RJ do the Forsaken infodump thing too? - 24/09/2010 04:09:48 AM 743 Views
Re: Actually, didn't RJ do the Forsaken infodump thing too? - 24/09/2010 05:36:23 PM 818 Views
A lot of those are reasons why I always thought she was alive.. - 24/09/2010 06:10:35 PM 834 Views
Re: Actually, didn't RJ do the Forsaken infodump thing too? - 25/09/2010 10:02:02 AM 638 Views
hmm - 25/09/2010 02:43:09 PM 633 Views
How she knows its Balefire.. - 25/09/2010 02:54:58 PM 608 Views
Re: Actually, didn't RJ do the Forsaken infodump thing too? - 25/09/2010 08:30:59 PM 691 Views
Re: Actually, didn't RJ do the Forsaken infodump thing too? - 25/09/2010 08:48:05 PM 707 Views
Some things... - 25/09/2010 09:02:26 PM 613 Views
Speaking of Kerb - 25/09/2010 09:39:46 PM 610 Views
Mat - 24/09/2010 04:44:34 AM 652 Views
Not really a mistake, I guess - 25/09/2010 09:45:54 PM 635 Views
Well... - 26/09/2010 06:30:54 AM 737 Views
Thanks. I think I didn't notice it with RJ because - 26/09/2010 06:35:47 AM 621 Views
Re: Thanks. I think I didn't notice it with RJ because - 26/09/2010 06:51:07 AM 621 Views
You're welcome *NM* - 26/09/2010 07:17:36 AM 290 Views
Well... - 26/09/2010 07:37:39 AM 704 Views

Reply to Message