Dude, you are a freaking jerk. Your so stuck on your own flawed, internally idealized ideas that you have blindd yourself from eing able to accept any alternat viewpoint, thugh these viewpoints are equally, if not more valid than your own arguments.
A few notes:
- putting a shield on someone can be very easy, it is maintaining that shield that proves to be difficult. Since the timeframe of Graendals shield is just moments, ie- a second or two to shield as she is jumping through gateway, I fail to see why any would see any difficulty n this.
Perhaps it would have been relatively easy for Arangar to break thruogh the shield, given a little time, but this time was lacking. ie- the shock, the distraction of incredible large amount of saidin, and the extreme quickness that these events playd out in were enough to delay arangar enouhg to not break through shield immediately, though she possible could if given time, since Graendal's strength is divded in many ways...
As for detecting the shield, consider what you would do if you felt immense amt of saidin bing wielded. I would certainly reach for source. However, graendal was just a little quicker.. arangar reached just after shield in place, ie fraction of second, and thus could readily sense shield being there. Duh... is ths logic so dfficult for you?
We've seen time and again how many things have proven to change with training ... in the same scene you note with Egwene she seems to think that splitting flows requires more strength, yet by KOD she can split hers a dozen ways and more while barely able to channel.
How is this related? First off, to do all the things Rand did, you do indeed need to be strong. It isn't about how much you split, but about what you can do with those split flows. Egwene, when she was Forkroot weakened, could make almost translucent balls and rings of fire. At her full strength, she could have done much more. That is exactly her point with Rand.
For another, this is a matter of knowledge of the Power. But sensing a shield without reaching for the source is not. No one thought Egwene how to see the glow of channeling, yet she figured it out. No one thought her how to sense channelers. She sensed that in Avi herself, then later in Moiraine, Amys and Melaine. It should be the same with shields placed on you. I don't see why Egwene couldn't have felt that in tSR.
But no one thought that ability to Egwene and Elayne. They learned it themselves. Nynaeve failed at what is a very basic and instinctive ability because she resisted using the OP and was in denial about it for a long time.
Frankly, I don't see what education has to do with sensing a shield from the opposite gender. You either feel a kick or you don't. Education won't change that. I don't see why education would change feeling a shield without attempting to channel.
For example, when Rand was in a box and the Aes Sedai were shielding him, never once did he claim to feel the shield without pushing against it. And yet, at many of those moments, LTT was with him, probing the shield, offering suggestions, etc. No one is more educated than LTT. Yet he too needed to physically push against the shield to feel it, sense the knots, and figure out if they were soft or hard. I'm sure you'll explain that away too, but the fact remains that no one has ever shown this ability, and many have shown definite lack of it.
I'm in an attack mode because you're ignoring multiple instances of the text proving you wrong, and twisting what it says to suit your purpose. I remember you being the same way with the OP debates.
A few notes:
- putting a shield on someone can be very easy, it is maintaining that shield that proves to be difficult. Since the timeframe of Graendals shield is just moments, ie- a second or two to shield as she is jumping through gateway, I fail to see why any would see any difficulty n this.
Perhaps it would have been relatively easy for Arangar to break thruogh the shield, given a little time, but this time was lacking. ie- the shock, the distraction of incredible large amount of saidin, and the extreme quickness that these events playd out in were enough to delay arangar enouhg to not break through shield immediately, though she possible could if given time, since Graendal's strength is divded in many ways...
As for detecting the shield, consider what you would do if you felt immense amt of saidin bing wielded. I would certainly reach for source. However, graendal was just a little quicker.. arangar reached just after shield in place, ie fraction of second, and thus could readily sense shield being there. Duh... is ths logic so dfficult for you?
We've seen time and again how many things have proven to change with training ... in the same scene you note with Egwene she seems to think that splitting flows requires more strength, yet by KOD she can split hers a dozen ways and more while barely able to channel.
How is this related? First off, to do all the things Rand did, you do indeed need to be strong. It isn't about how much you split, but about what you can do with those split flows. Egwene, when she was Forkroot weakened, could make almost translucent balls and rings of fire. At her full strength, she could have done much more. That is exactly her point with Rand.
For another, this is a matter of knowledge of the Power. But sensing a shield without reaching for the source is not. No one thought Egwene how to see the glow of channeling, yet she figured it out. No one thought her how to sense channelers. She sensed that in Avi herself, then later in Moiraine, Amys and Melaine. It should be the same with shields placed on you. I don't see why Egwene couldn't have felt that in tSR.
Sensing the ability in another woman is something Nynaeve hasn't learned well as late as KOD too ... yet that's supposed to be instinctive ... why is it so hard to believe that a well educated Channeler would be able to feel a shield being placed on them without trying to embrace the source?
But no one thought that ability to Egwene and Elayne. They learned it themselves. Nynaeve failed at what is a very basic and instinctive ability because she resisted using the OP and was in denial about it for a long time.
Frankly, I don't see what education has to do with sensing a shield from the opposite gender. You either feel a kick or you don't. Education won't change that. I don't see why education would change feeling a shield without attempting to channel.
For example, when Rand was in a box and the Aes Sedai were shielding him, never once did he claim to feel the shield without pushing against it. And yet, at many of those moments, LTT was with him, probing the shield, offering suggestions, etc. No one is more educated than LTT. Yet he too needed to physically push against the shield to feel it, sense the knots, and figure out if they were soft or hard. I'm sure you'll explain that away too, but the fact remains that no one has ever shown this ability, and many have shown definite lack of it.
I fail to see why you are in attack mode over this. But to use your own word ... Classy.
I'm in an attack mode because you're ignoring multiple instances of the text proving you wrong, and twisting what it says to suit your purpose. I remember you being the same way with the OP debates.
Towers of Midnight : Prologue discussion
21/09/2010 04:38:40 AM
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Me Too! Guess who is alive!!
21/09/2010 04:44:40 AM
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A dove, that's weird
21/09/2010 03:19:10 PM
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Re: A dove, that's weird
21/09/2010 03:26:39 PM
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What Ryan said. And we only assumed that they can only use those animals *NM*
21/09/2010 06:53:05 PM
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You all can go to heck (and find me a link!) *NM*
21/09/2010 05:10:47 AM
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Re: You all can go to heck (and find me a link!)
21/09/2010 05:14:26 AM
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Anyone find the audiobook version? *NM*
21/09/2010 10:20:22 AM
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If you're in the US, Audible.com. No clue about availability in the UK. *NM*
21/09/2010 06:29:45 PM
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Could somebody post a link to where they got it? I want to go to a site where I can download now *NM*
21/09/2010 05:39:13 AM
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Regarding Graendal
21/09/2010 10:12:42 AM
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a very weak angreal
21/09/2010 04:55:15 PM
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Graendal watched Aran'gar get nuked. Aran'gar is gone gone gone.
21/09/2010 10:11:41 PM
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The laughter in Perrin's Dream
21/09/2010 02:24:14 PM
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Not even Ishamael could shield another male Forsaken and an Aes Sedai at the same time...
21/09/2010 06:46:42 PM
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It's different (I think?) but I'm certainly no expert and I'm sure someone else will reply
21/09/2010 06:57:18 PM
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OK, I haven't read the scene, so I don't know if Arangar was holding saidin at the time or not
21/09/2010 07:00:23 PM
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Re: OK, I haven't read the scene, so I don't know if Arangar was holding saidin at the time or not.
21/09/2010 07:11:42 PM
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Thanks. Was Arangar channeling at the time?
21/09/2010 07:13:53 PM
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I think so, yes.
21/09/2010 07:15:44 PM
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I don't think so actually
21/09/2010 07:57:42 PM
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I don't think Aran'gar was channeling
21/09/2010 11:00:22 PM
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I don't think she even closed her Gateway. It think it was BF'd *NM*
21/09/2010 11:52:01 PM
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Re: I don't think she even closed her Gateway. It think it was BF'd
22/09/2010 02:57:02 AM
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So here's what happens...
21/09/2010 07:15:03 PM
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Thanks. A few comments...
21/09/2010 07:27:33 PM
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I don't rule out the angreal...
21/09/2010 07:32:40 PM
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Elayne's weakest angreal doubles her strength. Graendal x2 can easily shield Cyndane+Moggy, so...
21/09/2010 07:35:06 PM
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I disasgree. There is no evidence that Aran'gar was holding saidin at the time
21/09/2010 07:42:23 PM
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Then why did she gasp at the shield? She couldn't have known what Graendal was weaving.
21/09/2010 07:52:49 PM
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because she was surprised that Graendal would put a shield on her in the first place
21/09/2010 07:58:45 PM
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How did she know there was a shield?
21/09/2010 09:16:59 PM
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Fact: Graendal cannot shield a male Forsaken and an Aes Sedai if they are holding the Source...
21/09/2010 09:28:17 PM
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Who said "they"?
21/09/2010 09:55:28 PM
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Depends on the level of surprise, I guess. If he was only holding a trickle of saidin, then maybe
21/09/2010 10:05:37 PM
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I really don't think you have to be holding the source to know you've been shielded
21/09/2010 10:29:20 PM
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Provide evidence?
21/09/2010 10:36:36 PM
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Thanks, but like I said, they were both wrapped in air. That's enough for Aran'gar to wonder
21/09/2010 10:44:17 PM
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Siuan was distracted by a number of other things going on, not to mention how suspect
22/09/2010 02:43:36 PM
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And Aran'gar was fully focussed on Graendal?
22/09/2010 03:02:16 PM
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More so than Siuan was on Elaida when they were shielded.
22/09/2010 03:33:15 PM
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So?
22/09/2010 03:48:11 PM
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It doesn't matter. There are more Shieldings that go unnoticed when not holding the Source
22/09/2010 03:55:48 PM
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we don't know that
22/09/2010 02:35:50 PM
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Give over, Darius... there's plenty of evidence...
22/09/2010 03:45:11 PM
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Give over what? There is no hard evidence that Aran'gar wouldn't notice a shield put on her
22/09/2010 05:00:11 PM
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What rot... (also, Egwene and Rand)
22/09/2010 05:21:08 PM
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take a pill Fionwe ... no need to go batshit on me for having an opinion.
22/09/2010 05:38:21 PM
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Re: take a pill Fionwe ... no need to go batshit on me for having an opinion.
22/09/2010 05:45:05 PM
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if it was JUST one shield ... but she's shielding an AS and weaving a Gateway too!
22/09/2010 05:48:52 PM
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Well...
22/09/2010 07:00:26 PM
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She says...
22/09/2010 07:04:32 PM
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no one is arguing that
22/09/2010 07:09:17 PM
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Er...
22/09/2010 07:19:09 PM
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I'm contending that it's possible Aran'gar snesed she'd been shielded
22/09/2010 07:20:48 PM
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Re: I'm contending that it's possible Aran'gar snesed she'd been shielded
22/09/2010 07:26:52 PM
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Again, I just find that option completely unlikely since Graendals angreal isn't all that strong
22/09/2010 07:39:02 PM
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You've made a long list of channelers "incompetant" and "untrained". Enough.
23/09/2010 01:53:25 AM
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Re: You've made a long list of channelers "incompetant" and "untrained". Enough.
23/09/2010 03:42:31 PM
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23/09/2010 03:54:02 PM
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Re:
. The evidence is that no channeled is that strong!
23/09/2010 04:04:02 PM
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Really?
23/09/2010 06:11:00 PM
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Re: Really?
23/09/2010 09:56:09 PM
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That's my point *NM*
24/09/2010 12:20:45 AM
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Dear God! The sheer amount of replies here just blew my mind, and my window (jk).
*NM*
24/09/2010 07:28:14 PM
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The way it reads she is holding open a Gateway, then slams shields on both
22/09/2010 07:08:17 PM
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Continue being irrational then...
22/09/2010 05:46:19 PM
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Re: Continue being irrational then...
22/09/2010 05:53:05 PM
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Re: Continue being irrational then...
22/09/2010 07:03:02 PM
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Nope
22/09/2010 07:19:30 PM
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Re: Nope
23/09/2010 02:06:35 AM
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And you ignore all the evidence in the series that definitively makes it impossible for Graendal to
23/09/2010 03:57:49 PM
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Well...
23/09/2010 04:31:27 PM
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According to Fionwe she isn't using the angreal
24/09/2010 11:18:30 PM
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Re: According to Fionwe she isn't using the angreal
25/09/2010 09:38:41 AM
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Possible, but he specifically calls out when she ties off other weaves in the scene
25/09/2010 04:28:48 PM
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Re: Continue being irrational then...
24/09/2010 03:20:49 AM
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Re: How did she know there was a shield?
24/09/2010 04:42:25 AM
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You can sense the source when shielded. Entering a stedding you can't even sense it. *NM*
24/09/2010 02:46:09 PM
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You'[re missing the part about the bonds of air as well
21/09/2010 11:06:04 PM
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No. The sequence was shield-gasp-tie off shield-wrap in Air. *NM*
21/09/2010 11:14:41 PM
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We have seen people holding the source caught off guard by a shield *NM*
22/09/2010 12:10:48 AM
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Well, exactly!
22/09/2010 02:01:12 AM
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Aran'gar and Delana were caught with their pants down by Graendal
22/09/2010 06:40:41 AM
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What I think happened
22/09/2010 09:19:57 AM
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It's not the male/female issue. It's a Forsaken vs Forsaken issue...
22/09/2010 10:06:47 AM
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Re: It's not the male/female issue. It's a Forsaken vs Forsaken issue...
22/09/2010 01:31:52 PM
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About shielding a channeler holding the Source...
22/09/2010 05:51:34 PM
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Re: About shielding a channeler holding the Source...
22/09/2010 07:04:37 PM
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The angreal makes this an unnecessary debate...
22/09/2010 07:09:20 PM
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she never shielded them
22/09/2010 07:22:29 PM
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True...But it made her strong enough to easily overcome both...
22/09/2010 07:28:12 PM
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This I can believe ... it's just problematic since the angreal isn't mentioned
22/09/2010 07:51:19 PM
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Re: This I can believe ... it's just problematic since the angreal isn't mentioned
22/09/2010 07:54:18 PM
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I think we need to place Aran'gar lower too..
22/09/2010 07:10:29 PM
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A lot of unsubstantiated assumptions there...
22/09/2010 07:13:51 PM
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Mostly agree
22/09/2010 07:23:53 PM
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Re: Mostly agree
22/09/2010 07:28:42 PM
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Ever wonder why Graendal was given an angreal in the first place...
22/09/2010 07:34:21 PM
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Re: Ever wonder why Graendal was given an angreal in the first place...
22/09/2010 07:50:55 PM
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I am starting to believe that RJ didn't think quite so literally
22/09/2010 08:07:45 PM
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Not sure if you agreed with this before, but I reached this point awhile ago bwahaha
22/09/2010 08:53:42 PM
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Well there is one thing to consider about this
21/09/2010 07:32:44 PM
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Yes, that seems the most likely answer. That and the use of the angreal.
21/09/2010 07:35:53 PM
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Aren't female channelers more dexterous in weaving than male? So her speed could be part of that. *NM*
22/09/2010 03:42:56 AM
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Re: Not even Ishamael could shield another male Forsaken and an Aes Sedai at the same time...
01/10/2010 12:23:57 AM
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I'm disappointed that the dove was not hidden in a background description in the tGS scene...
21/09/2010 08:22:29 PM
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I was thinking the same thing ... was actually just about to go look for it myself!
21/09/2010 09:01:34 PM
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I'm happy there wasn't...
21/09/2010 09:18:30 PM
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Do you have more detail on Graendal's comments about Aginor's extensive use of the True Power?
21/09/2010 09:23:48 PM
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Re: Do you have more detail on Graendal's comments about Aginor's extensive use of the True Power?
21/09/2010 09:52:07 PM
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Very interesting. Another case of a character never utilised to his full potential in the series...
21/09/2010 09:57:42 PM
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For the record
21/09/2010 10:53:16 PM
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I am so glad Graendal is alive. I (& hopefully other "Graendal's Alive" supporters) feel vindicated. *NM*
22/09/2010 03:01:07 AM
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Did anyone else feel that the Graendal scene was one big infodump?
22/09/2010 03:32:44 AM
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That's exactly what I was thinking the entire time. It didn't ruin my enjoyment though.
22/09/2010 07:12:00 PM
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Wait...so NO ONE has wanted to discuss the Sapphic scene at Graendal's place?
22/09/2010 03:48:36 AM
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No, not at all. Aran'gar is still a dude at heart. I think. *NM*
22/09/2010 08:18:55 PM
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I tend to agree
23/09/2010 05:42:52 PM
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Lady parts + Lady parts = Lesbian sex
24/09/2010 11:24:36 PM
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Yes, but its still a little off
25/09/2010 09:40:16 AM
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What does Graendal think of Rand?
22/09/2010 02:00:28 PM
- 1713 Views
Aran'gar is a tool
22/09/2010 07:31:36 PM
- 1750 Views
I would think this argues against your contention that she would hold saidin to the max...
22/09/2010 07:36:09 PM
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Re: I would think this argues against your contention that she would hold saidin to the max...
22/09/2010 07:51:53 PM
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Remembering the last time male channelers held reversed weaves in the presence of Rand's party...
22/09/2010 07:55:12 PM
- 1435 Views
Are Fain's resurrected trollocks undead?
23/09/2010 01:43:01 AM
- 1598 Views
After 13 books you still can't spell "trollocs"...wow...that's just...wow... *NM*
23/09/2010 03:41:24 PM
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Thanks for taking up space on this board to point out my shortcomings. Always appreciated. *NM*
23/09/2010 05:23:19 PM
- 1004 Views
Nice prologue, but not superb, IMO
23/09/2010 05:45:41 PM
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Re: Nice prologue, but not superb, IMO
23/09/2010 09:54:33 PM
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Well, that is one prediction I made correctly! Etzel would find a way to make it look like Slayer
25/09/2010 05:43:20 PM
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I believe that Sanderson concocted the entire Graendal/Rand/Balefire part
23/09/2010 10:24:46 PM
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No way
24/09/2010 07:14:35 AM
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I can't see team Jordan allowing any deviation on what RJ would have laid out
12/10/2010 08:32:50 PM
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