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Re: Nope fionwe1987 Send a noteboard - 23/09/2010 02:06:35 AM

she says that she didn't think anyone but Nynaeve could split her flows that many ways ...

And so? At that point she also thought that Rand was cruel for what he did to Altiema. Today, she's eat the woman alive without a thought. What's your point?


You are proving my point here. There is nothing to say that with more time working with the Power the more easier it is to sense a shield being placed on you. All of the things you mention here simply prove my point.

B.U.L.L.S.H.I.T. Toviene Ghazal has been channeling for more than a hundred years. Yet, she doesn't feel that Logain has shielded her. What's your explanation for that?

really? So what you think Lanfear just has an innate ability to know where Rands flows were to cut them? There is nothing to suggest that education wouldn't change that! It's not a difficult concept here.

Are you implying that Lanfear was able to sense saidin? Because others who're being more rational assume that she had wards around her like Damandred did in WH. And that is a matter of education, of course.


Of course there is a difference between feeling the actually shield and simply realizing that you have been cut off from the source. Sort of like knowing the door in front of you is closed and pushing on the door to see how thick it is.

But Rand is never able to feel the shield unless he's pushing it. Why else did he keep pushing it to test for weakness? Why not just "sense" it?


I'm not ignoring anything, I just think there are plenty of alternative reasons from the points you are bringing up. I'm simply saying one gasp from Aran'gar doesn't mean that Graendal cut her off while she was already holding the Power. There are other feasible reasons.

Don't be absurd. This isn't just about the gasp. There's now a huge body of evidence here that has conclusively proved to everyone but you that you can't sense a shield of the opposite power unless you push against it. You've brushed aside every single one of those instances in the books where various characters did not feel a shield, and have yourself produced not a single instance of a channeler actually doing what you claim they can!
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Towers of Midnight : Prologue discussion fionwe1987 - 21/09/2010 04:38:40 AM 8782 Views
Me Too! Guess who is alive!! PatAtt - 21/09/2010 04:44:40 AM 2484 Views
A dove, that's weird BlackAdder - 21/09/2010 03:19:10 PM 2234 Views
Re: A dove, that's weird Ryan - 21/09/2010 03:26:39 PM 2185 Views
Yes, that's the point BlackAdder - 21/09/2010 11:49:00 PM 2039 Views
It did feel a bit deus ex machina Ryan - 22/09/2010 12:03:05 AM 2159 Views
What Ryan said. And we only assumed that they can only use those animals *NM* Deadsy - 21/09/2010 06:53:05 PM 1256 Views
Fain is as creepy as ever PatAtt - 21/09/2010 05:06:35 AM 2274 Views
You all can go to heck (and find me a link!) *NM* Deadsy - 21/09/2010 05:10:47 AM 1348 Views
Re: You all can go to heck (and find me a link!) PatAtt - 21/09/2010 05:14:26 AM 2355 Views
It's D/L on B&N now *NM* Deadsy - 21/09/2010 05:15:44 AM 1250 Views
Anyone find the audiobook version? *NM* Yuri - 21/09/2010 10:20:22 AM 1235 Views
If you're in the US, Audible.com. No clue about availability in the UK. *NM* RandAllThor - 21/09/2010 06:29:45 PM 1215 Views
I love the borderlanders PatAtt - 21/09/2010 05:25:29 AM 2216 Views
Best scene of the prologue *NM* Ryan - 21/09/2010 03:28:28 PM 1302 Views
Could somebody post a link to where they got it? I want to go to a site where I can download now *NM* Guava - 21/09/2010 05:39:13 AM 1215 Views
I posted some links here PatAtt - 21/09/2010 06:04:38 AM 2074 Views
My quick summary PatAtt - 21/09/2010 06:02:41 AM 2863 Views
Whoa, whoa, whoa. DREWRULESWOT! - 23/09/2010 02:59:37 AM 1949 Views
It's good, but... Perrin. Ugh. Deadsy - 21/09/2010 07:37:43 AM 2273 Views
Awesome! Ryan - 21/09/2010 09:00:45 AM 2033 Views
Regarding Graendal Sidious - 21/09/2010 10:12:42 AM 2537 Views
Some things... fionwe1987 - 21/09/2010 01:18:10 PM 2092 Views
I'm glad. Being right is a good feeling RugbyPlayingAshaman - 21/09/2010 04:12:08 PM 2046 Views
a very weak angreal darius_sedai - 21/09/2010 04:55:15 PM 2046 Views
Even a weak angreal malekithe - 21/09/2010 05:47:26 PM 1992 Views
The Angreal Elayne mentions made her 2x as strong as Nynaeve darius_sedai - 21/09/2010 06:04:21 PM 1880 Views
Graendal watched Aran'gar get nuked. Aran'gar is gone gone gone. Tom - 21/09/2010 10:11:41 PM 2047 Views
The laughter in Perrin's Dream Syraelle - 21/09/2010 02:24:14 PM 2109 Views
Probably Slayer RugbyPlayingAshaman - 21/09/2010 04:29:41 PM 1994 Views
Re: Probably Slayer Syraelle - 21/09/2010 04:39:36 PM 1808 Views
Audio Book Matt_at_Heart - 21/09/2010 06:39:54 PM 1937 Views
Not even Ishamael could shield another male Forsaken and an Aes Sedai at the same time... Shannow - 21/09/2010 06:46:42 PM 2145 Views
It's different (I think?) but I'm certainly no expert and I'm sure someone else will reply Deadsy - 21/09/2010 06:57:18 PM 2059 Views
OK, I haven't read the scene, so I don't know if Arangar was holding saidin at the time or not Shannow - 21/09/2010 07:00:23 PM 1862 Views
Re: OK, I haven't read the scene, so I don't know if Arangar was holding saidin at the time or not. Deadsy - 21/09/2010 07:11:42 PM 1984 Views
Thanks. Was Arangar channeling at the time? Shannow - 21/09/2010 07:13:53 PM 1967 Views
I think so, yes. fionwe1987 - 21/09/2010 07:15:44 PM 1914 Views
I don't think so actually darius_sedai - 21/09/2010 07:57:42 PM 1992 Views
I don't think Aran'gar was channeling Ryan - 21/09/2010 11:00:22 PM 1924 Views
I don't think she even closed her Gateway. It think it was BF'd *NM* BlackAdder - 21/09/2010 11:52:01 PM 1073 Views
Re: I don't think she even closed her Gateway. It think it was BF'd Heiko - 22/09/2010 02:57:02 AM 1815 Views
no she wasn't *NM* Deadsy - 21/09/2010 10:25:13 PM 1178 Views
nope, no power newyorkersedai - 23/09/2010 03:05:30 AM 1807 Views
So here's what happens... fionwe1987 - 21/09/2010 07:15:03 PM 2340 Views
Thanks. A few comments... Shannow - 21/09/2010 07:27:33 PM 1831 Views
I don't rule out the angreal... fionwe1987 - 21/09/2010 07:32:40 PM 1846 Views
Elayne's weakest angreal doubles her strength. Graendal x2 can easily shield Cyndane+Moggy, so... Shannow - 21/09/2010 07:35:06 PM 1993 Views
Graendal's seemed much weaker... fionwe1987 - 21/09/2010 07:52:20 PM 1839 Views
Elayne also called the x2 turtle angreal "weak"... Shannow - 21/09/2010 08:00:01 PM 1881 Views
and we know it wasn't enough to overwhlem Verin's circle darius_sedai - 21/09/2010 08:02:13 PM 1718 Views
I disasgree. There is no evidence that Aran'gar was holding saidin at the time darius_sedai - 21/09/2010 07:42:23 PM 1813 Views
Then why did she gasp at the shield? She couldn't have known what Graendal was weaving. fionwe1987 - 21/09/2010 07:52:49 PM 1852 Views
because she was surprised that Graendal would put a shield on her in the first place darius_sedai - 21/09/2010 07:58:45 PM 1870 Views
How did she know there was a shield? fionwe1987 - 21/09/2010 09:16:59 PM 1822 Views
Fact: Graendal cannot shield a male Forsaken and an Aes Sedai if they are holding the Source... Shannow - 21/09/2010 09:28:17 PM 1793 Views
Who said "they"? fionwe1987 - 21/09/2010 09:55:28 PM 1791 Views
Depends on the level of surprise, I guess. If he was only holding a trickle of saidin, then maybe Shannow - 21/09/2010 10:05:37 PM 1841 Views
I don't think strength is the only determinant... fionwe1987 - 21/09/2010 10:24:24 PM 1808 Views
I really don't think you have to be holding the source to know you've been shielded Deadsy - 21/09/2010 10:29:20 PM 1752 Views
Provide evidence? fionwe1987 - 21/09/2010 10:36:36 PM 1793 Views
Thanks, but like I said, they were both wrapped in air. That's enough for Aran'gar to wonder Deadsy - 21/09/2010 10:44:17 PM 1722 Views
They gasped before Graendal wove Air... fionwe1987 - 21/09/2010 11:13:48 PM 1796 Views
Alright, you win *NM* Deadsy - 22/09/2010 02:51:26 AM 1124 Views
*NM* fionwe1987 - 22/09/2010 03:06:22 AM 982 Views
Siuan was distracted by a number of other things going on, not to mention how suspect darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 02:43:36 PM 1713 Views
And Aran'gar was fully focussed on Graendal? fionwe1987 - 22/09/2010 03:02:16 PM 1942 Views
More so than Siuan was on Elaida when they were shielded. darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 03:33:15 PM 2740 Views
So? fionwe1987 - 22/09/2010 03:48:11 PM 1635 Views
It doesn't matter. There are more Shieldings that go unnoticed when not holding the Source Mik - 22/09/2010 03:55:48 PM 1721 Views
Nice catches! fionwe1987 - 22/09/2010 04:06:52 PM 1849 Views
we don't know that darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 02:35:50 PM 1786 Views
Huh? fionwe1987 - 22/09/2010 03:03:52 PM 1722 Views
Give over, Darius... there's plenty of evidence... Mik - 22/09/2010 03:45:11 PM 1772 Views
Give over what? There is no hard evidence that Aran'gar wouldn't notice a shield put on her darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 05:00:11 PM 1670 Views
What rot... (also, Egwene and Rand) fionwe1987 - 22/09/2010 05:21:08 PM 1782 Views
take a pill Fionwe ... no need to go batshit on me for having an opinion. darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 05:38:21 PM 1760 Views
Re: take a pill Fionwe ... no need to go batshit on me for having an opinion. Sidious - 22/09/2010 05:45:05 PM 1894 Views
if it was JUST one shield ... but she's shielding an AS and weaving a Gateway too! darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 05:48:52 PM 3805 Views
Well... Sidious - 22/09/2010 07:00:26 PM 1820 Views
She says... fionwe1987 - 22/09/2010 07:04:32 PM 1830 Views
no one is arguing that darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 07:09:17 PM 1775 Views
Er... Sidious - 22/09/2010 07:19:09 PM 1726 Views
I'm contending that it's possible Aran'gar snesed she'd been shielded darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 07:20:48 PM 2556 Views
Re: I'm contending that it's possible Aran'gar snesed she'd been shielded Sidious - 22/09/2010 07:26:52 PM 2519 Views
Again, I just find that option completely unlikely since Graendals angreal isn't all that strong darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 07:39:02 PM 1790 Views
You've made a long list of channelers "incompetant" and "untrained". Enough. fionwe1987 - 23/09/2010 01:53:25 AM 1856 Views
Re: You've made a long list of channelers "incompetant" and "untrained". Enough. darius_sedai - 23/09/2010 03:42:31 PM 1772 Views
fionwe1987 - 23/09/2010 03:54:02 PM 1759 Views
Re: . The evidence is that no channeled is that strong! darius_sedai - 23/09/2010 04:04:02 PM 1891 Views
Really? fionwe1987 - 23/09/2010 06:11:00 PM 1844 Views
Re: Really? Sidious - 23/09/2010 09:56:09 PM 1723 Views
That's my point *NM* darius_sedai - 24/09/2010 12:20:45 AM 1116 Views
Dear God! The sheer amount of replies here just blew my mind, and my window (jk). *NM* Bookwyrm - 24/09/2010 07:28:14 PM 1152 Views
Y o u' r e h u r t i n g m y s c r o l l b a r *NM* Marshall - 24/09/2010 11:30:27 PM 1123 Views
Re: She says... Sidious - 22/09/2010 07:12:48 PM 1778 Views
Exactly. fionwe1987 - 23/09/2010 01:54:05 AM 1755 Views
The way it reads she is holding open a Gateway, then slams shields on both darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 07:08:17 PM 1729 Views
Continue being irrational then... fionwe1987 - 22/09/2010 05:46:19 PM 1852 Views
Re: Continue being irrational then... darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 05:53:05 PM 1716 Views
Re: Continue being irrational then... fionwe1987 - 22/09/2010 07:03:02 PM 1713 Views
Nope darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 07:19:30 PM 1622 Views
Re: Nope fionwe1987 - 23/09/2010 02:06:35 AM 1781 Views
Toveine! Now THAT is a good catch, fionwe! Mik - 23/09/2010 07:57:05 AM 1888 Views
Sidious pointed it out, actually. But thanks! fionwe1987 - 23/09/2010 03:55:29 PM 1777 Views
And you ignore all the evidence in the series that definitively makes it impossible for Graendal to darius_sedai - 23/09/2010 03:57:49 PM 1653 Views
Well... Sidious - 23/09/2010 04:31:27 PM 1840 Views
According to Fionwe she isn't using the angreal darius_sedai - 24/09/2010 11:18:30 PM 1970 Views
Re: According to Fionwe she isn't using the angreal Sidious - 25/09/2010 09:38:41 AM 1817 Views
Possible, but he specifically calls out when she ties off other weaves in the scene darius_sedai - 25/09/2010 04:28:48 PM 1815 Views
Re: Continue being irrational then... iHeartGraendal - 24/09/2010 03:20:49 AM 1940 Views
Oh come on.. be real Sidious - 22/09/2010 05:39:51 PM 1722 Views
see that's an argument that makes more sense to me darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 05:47:17 PM 1815 Views
Re: How did she know there was a shield? Gee69 - 24/09/2010 04:42:25 AM 1757 Views
You can sense the source when shielded. Entering a stedding you can't even sense it. *NM* Myrdhyn - 24/09/2010 02:46:09 PM 1227 Views
You'[re missing the part about the bonds of air as well Ryan - 21/09/2010 11:06:04 PM 1759 Views
No. The sequence was shield-gasp-tie off shield-wrap in Air. *NM* fionwe1987 - 21/09/2010 11:14:41 PM 1157 Views
We have seen people holding the source caught off guard by a shield *NM* Ryan - 22/09/2010 12:10:48 AM 1110 Views
Well, exactly! fionwe1987 - 22/09/2010 02:01:12 AM 1796 Views
Aran'gar and Delana were caught with their pants down by Graendal Ryan - 22/09/2010 06:40:41 AM 2039 Views
What I think happened Sidious - 22/09/2010 09:19:57 AM 1757 Views
It's not the male/female issue. It's a Forsaken vs Forsaken issue... Shannow - 22/09/2010 10:06:47 AM 1734 Views
Re: It's not the male/female issue. It's a Forsaken vs Forsaken issue... Sidious - 22/09/2010 01:31:52 PM 1813 Views
Fair point. Shannow - 22/09/2010 02:07:05 PM 1789 Views
I think it also bears mentioning that ... Bookwyrm - 22/09/2010 04:17:17 PM 1812 Views
Graendal knew Aran'gar was distracted malekithe - 23/09/2010 07:10:52 AM 1732 Views
About shielding a channeler holding the Source... lilltempest - 22/09/2010 05:51:34 PM 2841 Views
Re: About shielding a channeler holding the Source... Sidious - 22/09/2010 07:04:37 PM 3268 Views
The angreal makes this an unnecessary debate... Shannow - 22/09/2010 07:09:20 PM 1718 Views
she never shielded them darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 07:22:29 PM 1727 Views
True...But it made her strong enough to easily overcome both... Shannow - 22/09/2010 07:28:12 PM 1679 Views
This I can believe ... it's just problematic since the angreal isn't mentioned darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 07:51:19 PM 1798 Views
Re: This I can believe ... it's just problematic since the angreal isn't mentioned Sidious - 22/09/2010 07:54:18 PM 1731 Views
LMAO... nice! darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 08:24:20 PM 1748 Views
I think we need to place Aran'gar lower too.. fionwe1987 - 22/09/2010 07:10:29 PM 1829 Views
A lot of unsubstantiated assumptions there... Shannow - 22/09/2010 07:13:51 PM 1659 Views
I would agree Sidious - 22/09/2010 07:22:50 PM 1807 Views
Re: I would agree darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 07:25:46 PM 1662 Views
Re: A lot of unsubstantiated assumptions there... fionwe1987 - 23/09/2010 03:03:26 AM 1743 Views
Mostly agree darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 07:23:53 PM 1734 Views
Re: Mostly agree Sidious - 22/09/2010 07:28:42 PM 1689 Views
Ever wonder why Graendal was given an angreal in the first place... Shannow - 22/09/2010 07:34:21 PM 1794 Views
Re: Ever wonder why Graendal was given an angreal in the first place... Sidious - 22/09/2010 07:50:55 PM 1847 Views
I am starting to believe that RJ didn't think quite so literally darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 08:07:45 PM 1741 Views
Not sure if you agreed with this before, but I reached this point awhile ago bwahaha RugbyPlayingAshaman - 22/09/2010 08:53:42 PM 1772 Views
I've been on this side for a good long while darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 09:40:43 PM 1878 Views
*NM* alanna aes sedai - 28/09/2010 11:54:54 PM 1078 Views
Well there is one thing to consider about this darius_sedai - 21/09/2010 07:32:44 PM 1991 Views
Yes, that seems the most likely answer. That and the use of the angreal. Shannow - 21/09/2010 07:35:53 PM 1862 Views
Aren't female channelers more dexterous in weaving than male? So her speed could be part of that. *NM* Bookwyrm - 22/09/2010 03:42:56 AM 1086 Views
Re: Not even Ishamael could shield another male Forsaken and an Aes Sedai at the same time... The Angry Druid - 01/10/2010 12:23:57 AM 1767 Views
I'm disappointed that the dove was not hidden in a background description in the tGS scene... Shannow - 21/09/2010 08:22:29 PM 1874 Views
I was thinking the same thing ... was actually just about to go look for it myself! darius_sedai - 21/09/2010 09:01:34 PM 1899 Views
I'm happy there wasn't... fionwe1987 - 21/09/2010 09:18:30 PM 1884 Views
Do you have more detail on Graendal's comments about Aginor's extensive use of the True Power? Shannow - 21/09/2010 09:23:48 PM 1831 Views
Re: Do you have more detail on Graendal's comments about Aginor's extensive use of the True Power? fionwe1987 - 21/09/2010 09:52:07 PM 1950 Views
Very interesting. Another case of a character never utilised to his full potential in the series... Shannow - 21/09/2010 09:57:42 PM 1709 Views
True... fionwe1987 - 21/09/2010 10:02:59 PM 1711 Views
So there are 6 Forsaken left. Tom - 21/09/2010 10:23:22 PM 2032 Views
For the record Heiko - 21/09/2010 10:53:16 PM 1922 Views
She opened two Gateways, IIRC BlackAdder - 21/09/2010 11:58:29 PM 1804 Views
Re: She opened two Gateways, IIRC Heiko - 22/09/2010 02:21:47 AM 1857 Views
I am so glad Graendal is alive. I (& hopefully other "Graendal's Alive" supporters) feel vindicated. *NM* Bookwyrm - 22/09/2010 03:01:07 AM 1238 Views
Did anyone else feel that the Graendal scene was one big infodump? Marshall - 22/09/2010 03:32:44 AM 1933 Views
That's exactly what I was thinking the entire time. It didn't ruin my enjoyment though. Myrdhyn - 22/09/2010 07:12:00 PM 1816 Views
Wait...so NO ONE has wanted to discuss the Sapphic scene at Graendal's place? Tom - 22/09/2010 03:48:36 AM 1995 Views
yes, totally Lesbian. *NM* darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 03:04:16 PM 1128 Views
No, the other L word. "LesbiAHNS?" *NM* Bookwyrm - 22/09/2010 04:18:55 PM 1179 Views
Yes, it was totally lesbian. Myrdhyn - 22/09/2010 07:09:19 PM 1747 Views
No, not at all. Aran'gar is still a dude at heart. I think. *NM* BlackAdder - 22/09/2010 08:18:55 PM 1135 Views
I tend to agree Sidious - 23/09/2010 05:42:52 PM 1783 Views
Lady parts + Lady parts = Lesbian sex darius_sedai - 24/09/2010 11:24:36 PM 2395 Views
Yes, but its still a little off Sidious - 25/09/2010 09:40:16 AM 1818 Views
Transgender is a little convoluted I suppose darius_sedai - 25/09/2010 04:41:33 PM 1981 Views
Re: Transgender is a little convoluted I suppose Sidious - 25/09/2010 05:25:10 PM 1886 Views
What does Graendal think of Rand? Sidious - 22/09/2010 02:00:28 PM 1946 Views
She was really surprised and scared. Rurouni_Kenshin - 22/09/2010 02:11:28 PM 1916 Views
I take it you haven't read the Prologue. Tom - 22/09/2010 02:16:49 PM 1791 Views
Quite a bit... fionwe1987 - 22/09/2010 02:31:14 PM 1953 Views
Agreed, she's been worrying about him since the begining darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 03:18:48 PM 1996 Views
Thanks for the answers *NM* Sidious - 22/09/2010 05:46:05 PM 1095 Views
Second best prologue ever... lilltempest - 22/09/2010 06:24:44 PM 2193 Views
It's my favorite ever. Only one dark spot tarnished it. Myrdhyn - 22/09/2010 07:18:12 PM 1817 Views
Yeah, tEotW is the best... BlackAdder - 22/09/2010 08:22:12 PM 1851 Views
Aran'gar is a tool Sidious - 22/09/2010 07:31:36 PM 1988 Views
I would think this argues against your contention that she would hold saidin to the max... Shannow - 22/09/2010 07:36:09 PM 1774 Views
Re: I would think this argues against your contention that she would hold saidin to the max... Sidious - 22/09/2010 07:51:53 PM 1722 Views
Remembering the last time male channelers held reversed weaves in the presence of Rand's party... Shannow - 22/09/2010 07:55:12 PM 1666 Views
Yes. s/He was. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 22/09/2010 08:59:16 PM 1840 Views
Shadow invading Kandor and Lan riding trough it. CONNECTION? 4th Dimension - 22/09/2010 08:36:05 PM 1988 Views
Are Fain's resurrected trollocks undead? RandAllThor - 23/09/2010 01:43:01 AM 1835 Views
After 13 books you still can't spell "trollocs"...wow...that's just...wow... *NM* Tom - 23/09/2010 03:41:24 PM 1133 Views
Thanks for taking up space on this board to point out my shortcomings. Always appreciated. *NM* RandAllThor - 23/09/2010 05:23:19 PM 1099 Views
Sidious - 23/09/2010 04:47:11 PM 1897 Views
Nice prologue, but not superb, IMO Etzel - 23/09/2010 05:45:41 PM 1925 Views
Re: Nice prologue, but not superb, IMO Sidious - 23/09/2010 09:54:33 PM 1867 Views
Well, that is one prediction I made correctly! Etzel would find a way to make it look like Slayer darius_sedai - 25/09/2010 05:43:20 PM 1939 Views
I believe that Sanderson concocted the entire Graendal/Rand/Balefire part Marshall - 23/09/2010 10:24:46 PM 2547 Views
I had a similar thought, but... RandAllThor - 23/09/2010 10:40:58 PM 1839 Views
Probably not Sanderson 4th Dimension - 23/09/2010 11:11:54 PM 1878 Views
No way Rurouni_Kenshin - 24/09/2010 07:14:35 AM 1796 Views
I can't see team Jordan allowing any deviation on what RJ would have laid out darius_sedai - 12/10/2010 08:32:50 PM 1950 Views
I agree. *NM* Etzel - 25/09/2010 09:42:46 AM 1141 Views
A few nits Terez - 12/10/2010 10:21:27 AM 1803 Views
Canadian Download site alanna aes sedai - 29/09/2010 12:05:12 AM 2314 Views
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