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I've been on this side for a good long while darius_sedai Send a noteboard - 22/09/2010 09:40:43 PM
...the more I read the series the more fuzzy the system seems to become.


I started re-reading the series earlier this year, and came to the same conclusion a few months ago. It had the unfortunate side effect of killing any interest I had in OP debates, which is very sad for me.


While I think it's generally easy for us to puzzle out who is stronger than who (within Male/Female lines), I think it's all but impossible to figure out how much stronger any one may be than another.
Domani Drag Queen in the White Tower ... Aran'gar watch out!
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Towers of Midnight : Prologue discussion fionwe1987 - 21/09/2010 04:38:40 AM 8518 Views
Me Too! Guess who is alive!! PatAtt - 21/09/2010 04:44:40 AM 2256 Views
A dove, that's weird BlackAdder - 21/09/2010 03:19:10 PM 2004 Views
Re: A dove, that's weird Ryan - 21/09/2010 03:26:39 PM 1955 Views
Yes, that's the point BlackAdder - 21/09/2010 11:49:00 PM 1804 Views
It did feel a bit deus ex machina Ryan - 22/09/2010 12:03:05 AM 1928 Views
What Ryan said. And we only assumed that they can only use those animals *NM* Deadsy - 21/09/2010 06:53:05 PM 1161 Views
Fain is as creepy as ever PatAtt - 21/09/2010 05:06:35 AM 2047 Views
You all can go to heck (and find me a link!) *NM* Deadsy - 21/09/2010 05:10:47 AM 1252 Views
Re: You all can go to heck (and find me a link!) PatAtt - 21/09/2010 05:14:26 AM 2123 Views
It's D/L on B&N now *NM* Deadsy - 21/09/2010 05:15:44 AM 1153 Views
Anyone find the audiobook version? *NM* Yuri - 21/09/2010 10:20:22 AM 1139 Views
If you're in the US, Audible.com. No clue about availability in the UK. *NM* RandAllThor - 21/09/2010 06:29:45 PM 1116 Views
I love the borderlanders PatAtt - 21/09/2010 05:25:29 AM 1991 Views
Best scene of the prologue *NM* Ryan - 21/09/2010 03:28:28 PM 1206 Views
Could somebody post a link to where they got it? I want to go to a site where I can download now *NM* Guava - 21/09/2010 05:39:13 AM 1119 Views
I posted some links here PatAtt - 21/09/2010 06:04:38 AM 1846 Views
My quick summary PatAtt - 21/09/2010 06:02:41 AM 2628 Views
Whoa, whoa, whoa. DREWRULESWOT! - 23/09/2010 02:59:37 AM 1718 Views
It's good, but... Perrin. Ugh. Deadsy - 21/09/2010 07:37:43 AM 2041 Views
Awesome! Ryan - 21/09/2010 09:00:45 AM 1799 Views
Regarding Graendal Sidious - 21/09/2010 10:12:42 AM 2296 Views
Some things... fionwe1987 - 21/09/2010 01:18:10 PM 1851 Views
I'm glad. Being right is a good feeling RugbyPlayingAshaman - 21/09/2010 04:12:08 PM 1814 Views
a very weak angreal darius_sedai - 21/09/2010 04:55:15 PM 1806 Views
Even a weak angreal malekithe - 21/09/2010 05:47:26 PM 1756 Views
The Angreal Elayne mentions made her 2x as strong as Nynaeve darius_sedai - 21/09/2010 06:04:21 PM 1639 Views
Graendal watched Aran'gar get nuked. Aran'gar is gone gone gone. Tom - 21/09/2010 10:11:41 PM 1807 Views
The laughter in Perrin's Dream Syraelle - 21/09/2010 02:24:14 PM 1875 Views
Probably Slayer RugbyPlayingAshaman - 21/09/2010 04:29:41 PM 1763 Views
Re: Probably Slayer Syraelle - 21/09/2010 04:39:36 PM 1571 Views
Audio Book Matt_at_Heart - 21/09/2010 06:39:54 PM 1704 Views
Not even Ishamael could shield another male Forsaken and an Aes Sedai at the same time... Shannow - 21/09/2010 06:46:42 PM 1907 Views
It's different (I think?) but I'm certainly no expert and I'm sure someone else will reply Deadsy - 21/09/2010 06:57:18 PM 1821 Views
OK, I haven't read the scene, so I don't know if Arangar was holding saidin at the time or not Shannow - 21/09/2010 07:00:23 PM 1624 Views
Re: OK, I haven't read the scene, so I don't know if Arangar was holding saidin at the time or not. Deadsy - 21/09/2010 07:11:42 PM 1747 Views
Thanks. Was Arangar channeling at the time? Shannow - 21/09/2010 07:13:53 PM 1727 Views
I think so, yes. fionwe1987 - 21/09/2010 07:15:44 PM 1669 Views
I don't think so actually darius_sedai - 21/09/2010 07:57:42 PM 1743 Views
I don't think Aran'gar was channeling Ryan - 21/09/2010 11:00:22 PM 1690 Views
I don't think she even closed her Gateway. It think it was BF'd *NM* BlackAdder - 21/09/2010 11:52:01 PM 979 Views
Re: I don't think she even closed her Gateway. It think it was BF'd Heiko - 22/09/2010 02:57:02 AM 1575 Views
no she wasn't *NM* Deadsy - 21/09/2010 10:25:13 PM 1084 Views
nope, no power newyorkersedai - 23/09/2010 03:05:30 AM 1578 Views
So here's what happens... fionwe1987 - 21/09/2010 07:15:03 PM 2112 Views
Thanks. A few comments... Shannow - 21/09/2010 07:27:33 PM 1588 Views
I don't rule out the angreal... fionwe1987 - 21/09/2010 07:32:40 PM 1609 Views
Elayne's weakest angreal doubles her strength. Graendal x2 can easily shield Cyndane+Moggy, so... Shannow - 21/09/2010 07:35:06 PM 1752 Views
Graendal's seemed much weaker... fionwe1987 - 21/09/2010 07:52:20 PM 1607 Views
Elayne also called the x2 turtle angreal "weak"... Shannow - 21/09/2010 08:00:01 PM 1636 Views
and we know it wasn't enough to overwhlem Verin's circle darius_sedai - 21/09/2010 08:02:13 PM 1473 Views
I disasgree. There is no evidence that Aran'gar was holding saidin at the time darius_sedai - 21/09/2010 07:42:23 PM 1571 Views
Then why did she gasp at the shield? She couldn't have known what Graendal was weaving. fionwe1987 - 21/09/2010 07:52:49 PM 1608 Views
because she was surprised that Graendal would put a shield on her in the first place darius_sedai - 21/09/2010 07:58:45 PM 1631 Views
How did she know there was a shield? fionwe1987 - 21/09/2010 09:16:59 PM 1579 Views
Fact: Graendal cannot shield a male Forsaken and an Aes Sedai if they are holding the Source... Shannow - 21/09/2010 09:28:17 PM 1558 Views
Who said "they"? fionwe1987 - 21/09/2010 09:55:28 PM 1553 Views
Depends on the level of surprise, I guess. If he was only holding a trickle of saidin, then maybe Shannow - 21/09/2010 10:05:37 PM 1604 Views
I don't think strength is the only determinant... fionwe1987 - 21/09/2010 10:24:24 PM 1573 Views
I really don't think you have to be holding the source to know you've been shielded Deadsy - 21/09/2010 10:29:20 PM 1512 Views
Provide evidence? fionwe1987 - 21/09/2010 10:36:36 PM 1558 Views
Thanks, but like I said, they were both wrapped in air. That's enough for Aran'gar to wonder Deadsy - 21/09/2010 10:44:17 PM 1486 Views
They gasped before Graendal wove Air... fionwe1987 - 21/09/2010 11:13:48 PM 1563 Views
Alright, you win *NM* Deadsy - 22/09/2010 02:51:26 AM 1025 Views
*NM* fionwe1987 - 22/09/2010 03:06:22 AM 883 Views
Siuan was distracted by a number of other things going on, not to mention how suspect darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 02:43:36 PM 1470 Views
And Aran'gar was fully focussed on Graendal? fionwe1987 - 22/09/2010 03:02:16 PM 1699 Views
More so than Siuan was on Elaida when they were shielded. darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 03:33:15 PM 2497 Views
So? fionwe1987 - 22/09/2010 03:48:11 PM 1399 Views
It doesn't matter. There are more Shieldings that go unnoticed when not holding the Source Mik - 22/09/2010 03:55:48 PM 1481 Views
Nice catches! fionwe1987 - 22/09/2010 04:06:52 PM 1607 Views
we don't know that darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 02:35:50 PM 1547 Views
Huh? fionwe1987 - 22/09/2010 03:03:52 PM 1489 Views
Give over, Darius... there's plenty of evidence... Mik - 22/09/2010 03:45:11 PM 1534 Views
Give over what? There is no hard evidence that Aran'gar wouldn't notice a shield put on her darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 05:00:11 PM 1428 Views
What rot... (also, Egwene and Rand) fionwe1987 - 22/09/2010 05:21:08 PM 1546 Views
take a pill Fionwe ... no need to go batshit on me for having an opinion. darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 05:38:21 PM 1522 Views
Re: take a pill Fionwe ... no need to go batshit on me for having an opinion. Sidious - 22/09/2010 05:45:05 PM 1657 Views
if it was JUST one shield ... but she's shielding an AS and weaving a Gateway too! darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 05:48:52 PM 3559 Views
Well... Sidious - 22/09/2010 07:00:26 PM 1581 Views
She says... fionwe1987 - 22/09/2010 07:04:32 PM 1583 Views
no one is arguing that darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 07:09:17 PM 1528 Views
Er... Sidious - 22/09/2010 07:19:09 PM 1481 Views
I'm contending that it's possible Aran'gar snesed she'd been shielded darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 07:20:48 PM 2315 Views
Re: I'm contending that it's possible Aran'gar snesed she'd been shielded Sidious - 22/09/2010 07:26:52 PM 2280 Views
Again, I just find that option completely unlikely since Graendals angreal isn't all that strong darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 07:39:02 PM 1554 Views
You've made a long list of channelers "incompetant" and "untrained". Enough. fionwe1987 - 23/09/2010 01:53:25 AM 1621 Views
Re: You've made a long list of channelers "incompetant" and "untrained". Enough. darius_sedai - 23/09/2010 03:42:31 PM 1524 Views
fionwe1987 - 23/09/2010 03:54:02 PM 1522 Views
Re: . The evidence is that no channeled is that strong! darius_sedai - 23/09/2010 04:04:02 PM 1652 Views
Really? fionwe1987 - 23/09/2010 06:11:00 PM 1606 Views
Re: Really? Sidious - 23/09/2010 09:56:09 PM 1474 Views
That's my point *NM* darius_sedai - 24/09/2010 12:20:45 AM 1017 Views
Dear God! The sheer amount of replies here just blew my mind, and my window (jk). *NM* Bookwyrm - 24/09/2010 07:28:14 PM 1053 Views
Y o u' r e h u r t i n g m y s c r o l l b a r *NM* Marshall - 24/09/2010 11:30:27 PM 1029 Views
Re: She says... Sidious - 22/09/2010 07:12:48 PM 1534 Views
Exactly. fionwe1987 - 23/09/2010 01:54:05 AM 1513 Views
The way it reads she is holding open a Gateway, then slams shields on both darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 07:08:17 PM 1490 Views
Continue being irrational then... fionwe1987 - 22/09/2010 05:46:19 PM 1608 Views
Re: Continue being irrational then... darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 05:53:05 PM 1475 Views
Re: Continue being irrational then... fionwe1987 - 22/09/2010 07:03:02 PM 1477 Views
Nope darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 07:19:30 PM 1373 Views
Re: Nope fionwe1987 - 23/09/2010 02:06:35 AM 1537 Views
Toveine! Now THAT is a good catch, fionwe! Mik - 23/09/2010 07:57:05 AM 1653 Views
Sidious pointed it out, actually. But thanks! fionwe1987 - 23/09/2010 03:55:29 PM 1534 Views
And you ignore all the evidence in the series that definitively makes it impossible for Graendal to darius_sedai - 23/09/2010 03:57:49 PM 1421 Views
Well... Sidious - 23/09/2010 04:31:27 PM 1594 Views
According to Fionwe she isn't using the angreal darius_sedai - 24/09/2010 11:18:30 PM 1737 Views
Re: According to Fionwe she isn't using the angreal Sidious - 25/09/2010 09:38:41 AM 1582 Views
Possible, but he specifically calls out when she ties off other weaves in the scene darius_sedai - 25/09/2010 04:28:48 PM 1579 Views
Re: Continue being irrational then... iHeartGraendal - 24/09/2010 03:20:49 AM 1699 Views
Oh come on.. be real Sidious - 22/09/2010 05:39:51 PM 1496 Views
see that's an argument that makes more sense to me darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 05:47:17 PM 1576 Views
Re: How did she know there was a shield? Gee69 - 24/09/2010 04:42:25 AM 1526 Views
You can sense the source when shielded. Entering a stedding you can't even sense it. *NM* Myrdhyn - 24/09/2010 02:46:09 PM 1131 Views
You'[re missing the part about the bonds of air as well Ryan - 21/09/2010 11:06:04 PM 1514 Views
No. The sequence was shield-gasp-tie off shield-wrap in Air. *NM* fionwe1987 - 21/09/2010 11:14:41 PM 1061 Views
We have seen people holding the source caught off guard by a shield *NM* Ryan - 22/09/2010 12:10:48 AM 1017 Views
Well, exactly! fionwe1987 - 22/09/2010 02:01:12 AM 1569 Views
Aran'gar and Delana were caught with their pants down by Graendal Ryan - 22/09/2010 06:40:41 AM 1796 Views
What I think happened Sidious - 22/09/2010 09:19:57 AM 1519 Views
It's not the male/female issue. It's a Forsaken vs Forsaken issue... Shannow - 22/09/2010 10:06:47 AM 1494 Views
Re: It's not the male/female issue. It's a Forsaken vs Forsaken issue... Sidious - 22/09/2010 01:31:52 PM 1577 Views
Fair point. Shannow - 22/09/2010 02:07:05 PM 1550 Views
I think it also bears mentioning that ... Bookwyrm - 22/09/2010 04:17:17 PM 1571 Views
Graendal knew Aran'gar was distracted malekithe - 23/09/2010 07:10:52 AM 1495 Views
About shielding a channeler holding the Source... lilltempest - 22/09/2010 05:51:34 PM 2610 Views
Re: About shielding a channeler holding the Source... Sidious - 22/09/2010 07:04:37 PM 3034 Views
The angreal makes this an unnecessary debate... Shannow - 22/09/2010 07:09:20 PM 1484 Views
she never shielded them darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 07:22:29 PM 1495 Views
True...But it made her strong enough to easily overcome both... Shannow - 22/09/2010 07:28:12 PM 1440 Views
This I can believe ... it's just problematic since the angreal isn't mentioned darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 07:51:19 PM 1553 Views
Re: This I can believe ... it's just problematic since the angreal isn't mentioned Sidious - 22/09/2010 07:54:18 PM 1497 Views
LMAO... nice! darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 08:24:20 PM 1512 Views
I think we need to place Aran'gar lower too.. fionwe1987 - 22/09/2010 07:10:29 PM 1589 Views
A lot of unsubstantiated assumptions there... Shannow - 22/09/2010 07:13:51 PM 1420 Views
I would agree Sidious - 22/09/2010 07:22:50 PM 1573 Views
Re: I would agree darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 07:25:46 PM 1422 Views
Re: A lot of unsubstantiated assumptions there... fionwe1987 - 23/09/2010 03:03:26 AM 1499 Views
Mostly agree darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 07:23:53 PM 1497 Views
Re: Mostly agree Sidious - 22/09/2010 07:28:42 PM 1443 Views
Ever wonder why Graendal was given an angreal in the first place... Shannow - 22/09/2010 07:34:21 PM 1552 Views
Re: Ever wonder why Graendal was given an angreal in the first place... Sidious - 22/09/2010 07:50:55 PM 1616 Views
I am starting to believe that RJ didn't think quite so literally darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 08:07:45 PM 1505 Views
Not sure if you agreed with this before, but I reached this point awhile ago bwahaha RugbyPlayingAshaman - 22/09/2010 08:53:42 PM 1538 Views
I've been on this side for a good long while darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 09:40:43 PM 1636 Views
*NM* alanna aes sedai - 28/09/2010 11:54:54 PM 982 Views
Well there is one thing to consider about this darius_sedai - 21/09/2010 07:32:44 PM 1753 Views
Yes, that seems the most likely answer. That and the use of the angreal. Shannow - 21/09/2010 07:35:53 PM 1623 Views
Aren't female channelers more dexterous in weaving than male? So her speed could be part of that. *NM* Bookwyrm - 22/09/2010 03:42:56 AM 992 Views
Re: Not even Ishamael could shield another male Forsaken and an Aes Sedai at the same time... The Angry Druid - 01/10/2010 12:23:57 AM 1532 Views
I'm disappointed that the dove was not hidden in a background description in the tGS scene... Shannow - 21/09/2010 08:22:29 PM 1636 Views
I was thinking the same thing ... was actually just about to go look for it myself! darius_sedai - 21/09/2010 09:01:34 PM 1641 Views
I'm happy there wasn't... fionwe1987 - 21/09/2010 09:18:30 PM 1648 Views
Do you have more detail on Graendal's comments about Aginor's extensive use of the True Power? Shannow - 21/09/2010 09:23:48 PM 1594 Views
Re: Do you have more detail on Graendal's comments about Aginor's extensive use of the True Power? fionwe1987 - 21/09/2010 09:52:07 PM 1719 Views
Very interesting. Another case of a character never utilised to his full potential in the series... Shannow - 21/09/2010 09:57:42 PM 1476 Views
True... fionwe1987 - 21/09/2010 10:02:59 PM 1476 Views
So there are 6 Forsaken left. Tom - 21/09/2010 10:23:22 PM 1803 Views
For the record Heiko - 21/09/2010 10:53:16 PM 1682 Views
She opened two Gateways, IIRC BlackAdder - 21/09/2010 11:58:29 PM 1567 Views
Re: She opened two Gateways, IIRC Heiko - 22/09/2010 02:21:47 AM 1614 Views
I am so glad Graendal is alive. I (& hopefully other "Graendal's Alive" supporters) feel vindicated. *NM* Bookwyrm - 22/09/2010 03:01:07 AM 1139 Views
Did anyone else feel that the Graendal scene was one big infodump? Marshall - 22/09/2010 03:32:44 AM 1700 Views
That's exactly what I was thinking the entire time. It didn't ruin my enjoyment though. Myrdhyn - 22/09/2010 07:12:00 PM 1577 Views
Wait...so NO ONE has wanted to discuss the Sapphic scene at Graendal's place? Tom - 22/09/2010 03:48:36 AM 1750 Views
yes, totally Lesbian. *NM* darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 03:04:16 PM 1025 Views
No, the other L word. "LesbiAHNS?" *NM* Bookwyrm - 22/09/2010 04:18:55 PM 1082 Views
Yes, it was totally lesbian. Myrdhyn - 22/09/2010 07:09:19 PM 1518 Views
No, not at all. Aran'gar is still a dude at heart. I think. *NM* BlackAdder - 22/09/2010 08:18:55 PM 1041 Views
I tend to agree Sidious - 23/09/2010 05:42:52 PM 1540 Views
Lady parts + Lady parts = Lesbian sex darius_sedai - 24/09/2010 11:24:36 PM 2159 Views
Yes, but its still a little off Sidious - 25/09/2010 09:40:16 AM 1591 Views
Transgender is a little convoluted I suppose darius_sedai - 25/09/2010 04:41:33 PM 1746 Views
Re: Transgender is a little convoluted I suppose Sidious - 25/09/2010 05:25:10 PM 1663 Views
What does Graendal think of Rand? Sidious - 22/09/2010 02:00:28 PM 1712 Views
She was really surprised and scared. Rurouni_Kenshin - 22/09/2010 02:11:28 PM 1682 Views
I take it you haven't read the Prologue. Tom - 22/09/2010 02:16:49 PM 1556 Views
Quite a bit... fionwe1987 - 22/09/2010 02:31:14 PM 1723 Views
Agreed, she's been worrying about him since the begining darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 03:18:48 PM 1763 Views
Thanks for the answers *NM* Sidious - 22/09/2010 05:46:05 PM 998 Views
Second best prologue ever... lilltempest - 22/09/2010 06:24:44 PM 1955 Views
It's my favorite ever. Only one dark spot tarnished it. Myrdhyn - 22/09/2010 07:18:12 PM 1589 Views
Yeah, tEotW is the best... BlackAdder - 22/09/2010 08:22:12 PM 1613 Views
Aran'gar is a tool Sidious - 22/09/2010 07:31:36 PM 1749 Views
I would think this argues against your contention that she would hold saidin to the max... Shannow - 22/09/2010 07:36:09 PM 1534 Views
Re: I would think this argues against your contention that she would hold saidin to the max... Sidious - 22/09/2010 07:51:53 PM 1481 Views
Remembering the last time male channelers held reversed weaves in the presence of Rand's party... Shannow - 22/09/2010 07:55:12 PM 1435 Views
Yes. s/He was. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 22/09/2010 08:59:16 PM 1589 Views
Shadow invading Kandor and Lan riding trough it. CONNECTION? 4th Dimension - 22/09/2010 08:36:05 PM 1760 Views
Are Fain's resurrected trollocks undead? RandAllThor - 23/09/2010 01:43:01 AM 1598 Views
After 13 books you still can't spell "trollocs"...wow...that's just...wow... *NM* Tom - 23/09/2010 03:41:24 PM 1037 Views
Thanks for taking up space on this board to point out my shortcomings. Always appreciated. *NM* RandAllThor - 23/09/2010 05:23:19 PM 1003 Views
Sidious - 23/09/2010 04:47:11 PM 1667 Views
Nice prologue, but not superb, IMO Etzel - 23/09/2010 05:45:41 PM 1682 Views
Re: Nice prologue, but not superb, IMO Sidious - 23/09/2010 09:54:33 PM 1634 Views
Well, that is one prediction I made correctly! Etzel would find a way to make it look like Slayer darius_sedai - 25/09/2010 05:43:20 PM 1706 Views
I believe that Sanderson concocted the entire Graendal/Rand/Balefire part Marshall - 23/09/2010 10:24:46 PM 2313 Views
I had a similar thought, but... RandAllThor - 23/09/2010 10:40:58 PM 1594 Views
Probably not Sanderson 4th Dimension - 23/09/2010 11:11:54 PM 1635 Views
No way Rurouni_Kenshin - 24/09/2010 07:14:35 AM 1559 Views
I can't see team Jordan allowing any deviation on what RJ would have laid out darius_sedai - 12/10/2010 08:32:50 PM 1718 Views
I agree. *NM* Etzel - 25/09/2010 09:42:46 AM 1049 Views
A few nits Terez - 12/10/2010 10:21:27 AM 1569 Views
Canadian Download site alanna aes sedai - 29/09/2010 12:05:12 AM 2070 Views
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