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I am starting to believe that RJ didn't think quite so literally darius_sedai Send a noteboard - 22/09/2010 08:07:45 PM
Arguments that Aran'gar couldn't have survived if he was weaker don't make sense, since Moghedien clearly did. None of the Forsaken seem to think Moghedien was especially weak in the OP. Which tells me the general range of the Forsaken is a little more spread out.

I also think the fact that Graendal can do all this either on her own or with a weak angreal proves that she is at the higher levels, and almost certainly equalled Sammael at least, as Moridin's PoV suggested. This also lends further credence to the theory that Lanfear was, for all intents and purposes, as strong as Rand and Ishamael.


Graendal seems to be the second strongest of the women and this (angreal or no) drives that point home.



And yet with more than one 'level' between her and Lanfear. I've always found that to be very odd.


when it came to the Forsaken. Personally I think all of the Forsaken women were level 20 or 21 and that there is just a larger range of Power between the levels.

Assume for a minute that level 21 is Power level 90-100, Graendal could be a 95 and still leave room for Cyndane and Lanfear ahead of her. We have no clue how much stronger Cyndane is than Graendal and the more I read the series the more fuzzy the system seems to become.
Domani Drag Queen in the White Tower ... Aran'gar watch out!
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Towers of Midnight : Prologue discussion fionwe1987 - 21/09/2010 04:38:40 AM 8391 Views
Me Too! Guess who is alive!! PatAtt - 21/09/2010 04:44:40 AM 2141 Views
A dove, that's weird BlackAdder - 21/09/2010 03:19:10 PM 1890 Views
Re: A dove, that's weird Ryan - 21/09/2010 03:26:39 PM 1835 Views
Yes, that's the point BlackAdder - 21/09/2010 11:49:00 PM 1688 Views
It did feel a bit deus ex machina Ryan - 22/09/2010 12:03:05 AM 1796 Views
What Ryan said. And we only assumed that they can only use those animals *NM* Deadsy - 21/09/2010 06:53:05 PM 1111 Views
Fain is as creepy as ever PatAtt - 21/09/2010 05:06:35 AM 1905 Views
You all can go to heck (and find me a link!) *NM* Deadsy - 21/09/2010 05:10:47 AM 1194 Views
Re: You all can go to heck (and find me a link!) PatAtt - 21/09/2010 05:14:26 AM 1998 Views
It's D/L on B&N now *NM* Deadsy - 21/09/2010 05:15:44 AM 1093 Views
Anyone find the audiobook version? *NM* Yuri - 21/09/2010 10:20:22 AM 1069 Views
If you're in the US, Audible.com. No clue about availability in the UK. *NM* RandAllThor - 21/09/2010 06:29:45 PM 1061 Views
I love the borderlanders PatAtt - 21/09/2010 05:25:29 AM 1868 Views
Best scene of the prologue *NM* Ryan - 21/09/2010 03:28:28 PM 1152 Views
Could somebody post a link to where they got it? I want to go to a site where I can download now *NM* Guava - 21/09/2010 05:39:13 AM 1058 Views
I posted some links here PatAtt - 21/09/2010 06:04:38 AM 1736 Views
My quick summary PatAtt - 21/09/2010 06:02:41 AM 2507 Views
Whoa, whoa, whoa. DREWRULESWOT! - 23/09/2010 02:59:37 AM 1584 Views
It's good, but... Perrin. Ugh. Deadsy - 21/09/2010 07:37:43 AM 1921 Views
Awesome! Ryan - 21/09/2010 09:00:45 AM 1679 Views
Regarding Graendal Sidious - 21/09/2010 10:12:42 AM 2181 Views
Some things... fionwe1987 - 21/09/2010 01:18:10 PM 1751 Views
I'm glad. Being right is a good feeling RugbyPlayingAshaman - 21/09/2010 04:12:08 PM 1697 Views
a very weak angreal darius_sedai - 21/09/2010 04:55:15 PM 1709 Views
Even a weak angreal malekithe - 21/09/2010 05:47:26 PM 1644 Views
The Angreal Elayne mentions made her 2x as strong as Nynaeve darius_sedai - 21/09/2010 06:04:21 PM 1517 Views
Graendal watched Aran'gar get nuked. Aran'gar is gone gone gone. Tom - 21/09/2010 10:11:41 PM 1690 Views
The laughter in Perrin's Dream Syraelle - 21/09/2010 02:24:14 PM 1768 Views
Probably Slayer RugbyPlayingAshaman - 21/09/2010 04:29:41 PM 1649 Views
Re: Probably Slayer Syraelle - 21/09/2010 04:39:36 PM 1450 Views
Audio Book Matt_at_Heart - 21/09/2010 06:39:54 PM 1584 Views
Not even Ishamael could shield another male Forsaken and an Aes Sedai at the same time... Shannow - 21/09/2010 06:46:42 PM 1791 Views
It's different (I think?) but I'm certainly no expert and I'm sure someone else will reply Deadsy - 21/09/2010 06:57:18 PM 1695 Views
OK, I haven't read the scene, so I don't know if Arangar was holding saidin at the time or not Shannow - 21/09/2010 07:00:23 PM 1513 Views
Re: OK, I haven't read the scene, so I don't know if Arangar was holding saidin at the time or not. Deadsy - 21/09/2010 07:11:42 PM 1621 Views
Thanks. Was Arangar channeling at the time? Shannow - 21/09/2010 07:13:53 PM 1605 Views
I think so, yes. fionwe1987 - 21/09/2010 07:15:44 PM 1539 Views
I don't think so actually darius_sedai - 21/09/2010 07:57:42 PM 1636 Views
I don't think Aran'gar was channeling Ryan - 21/09/2010 11:00:22 PM 1593 Views
I don't think she even closed her Gateway. It think it was BF'd *NM* BlackAdder - 21/09/2010 11:52:01 PM 920 Views
Re: I don't think she even closed her Gateway. It think it was BF'd Heiko - 22/09/2010 02:57:02 AM 1456 Views
no she wasn't *NM* Deadsy - 21/09/2010 10:25:13 PM 1034 Views
nope, no power newyorkersedai - 23/09/2010 03:05:30 AM 1470 Views
So here's what happens... fionwe1987 - 21/09/2010 07:15:03 PM 1978 Views
Thanks. A few comments... Shannow - 21/09/2010 07:27:33 PM 1471 Views
I don't rule out the angreal... fionwe1987 - 21/09/2010 07:32:40 PM 1505 Views
Elayne's weakest angreal doubles her strength. Graendal x2 can easily shield Cyndane+Moggy, so... Shannow - 21/09/2010 07:35:06 PM 1638 Views
Graendal's seemed much weaker... fionwe1987 - 21/09/2010 07:52:20 PM 1504 Views
Elayne also called the x2 turtle angreal "weak"... Shannow - 21/09/2010 08:00:01 PM 1511 Views
and we know it wasn't enough to overwhlem Verin's circle darius_sedai - 21/09/2010 08:02:13 PM 1353 Views
I disasgree. There is no evidence that Aran'gar was holding saidin at the time darius_sedai - 21/09/2010 07:42:23 PM 1449 Views
Then why did she gasp at the shield? She couldn't have known what Graendal was weaving. fionwe1987 - 21/09/2010 07:52:49 PM 1484 Views
because she was surprised that Graendal would put a shield on her in the first place darius_sedai - 21/09/2010 07:58:45 PM 1497 Views
How did she know there was a shield? fionwe1987 - 21/09/2010 09:16:59 PM 1458 Views
Fact: Graendal cannot shield a male Forsaken and an Aes Sedai if they are holding the Source... Shannow - 21/09/2010 09:28:17 PM 1453 Views
Who said "they"? fionwe1987 - 21/09/2010 09:55:28 PM 1428 Views
Depends on the level of surprise, I guess. If he was only holding a trickle of saidin, then maybe Shannow - 21/09/2010 10:05:37 PM 1490 Views
I don't think strength is the only determinant... fionwe1987 - 21/09/2010 10:24:24 PM 1457 Views
I really don't think you have to be holding the source to know you've been shielded Deadsy - 21/09/2010 10:29:20 PM 1397 Views
Provide evidence? fionwe1987 - 21/09/2010 10:36:36 PM 1455 Views
Thanks, but like I said, they were both wrapped in air. That's enough for Aran'gar to wonder Deadsy - 21/09/2010 10:44:17 PM 1366 Views
They gasped before Graendal wove Air... fionwe1987 - 21/09/2010 11:13:48 PM 1431 Views
Alright, you win *NM* Deadsy - 22/09/2010 02:51:26 AM 968 Views
*NM* fionwe1987 - 22/09/2010 03:06:22 AM 832 Views
Siuan was distracted by a number of other things going on, not to mention how suspect darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 02:43:36 PM 1347 Views
And Aran'gar was fully focussed on Graendal? fionwe1987 - 22/09/2010 03:02:16 PM 1582 Views
More so than Siuan was on Elaida when they were shielded. darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 03:33:15 PM 2363 Views
So? fionwe1987 - 22/09/2010 03:48:11 PM 1290 Views
It doesn't matter. There are more Shieldings that go unnoticed when not holding the Source Mik - 22/09/2010 03:55:48 PM 1395 Views
Nice catches! fionwe1987 - 22/09/2010 04:06:52 PM 1488 Views
we don't know that darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 02:35:50 PM 1427 Views
Huh? fionwe1987 - 22/09/2010 03:03:52 PM 1374 Views
Give over, Darius... there's plenty of evidence... Mik - 22/09/2010 03:45:11 PM 1418 Views
Give over what? There is no hard evidence that Aran'gar wouldn't notice a shield put on her darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 05:00:11 PM 1329 Views
What rot... (also, Egwene and Rand) fionwe1987 - 22/09/2010 05:21:08 PM 1435 Views
take a pill Fionwe ... no need to go batshit on me for having an opinion. darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 05:38:21 PM 1413 Views
Re: take a pill Fionwe ... no need to go batshit on me for having an opinion. Sidious - 22/09/2010 05:45:05 PM 1531 Views
if it was JUST one shield ... but she's shielding an AS and weaving a Gateway too! darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 05:48:52 PM 3454 Views
Well... Sidious - 22/09/2010 07:00:26 PM 1468 Views
She says... fionwe1987 - 22/09/2010 07:04:32 PM 1465 Views
no one is arguing that darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 07:09:17 PM 1410 Views
Er... Sidious - 22/09/2010 07:19:09 PM 1365 Views
I'm contending that it's possible Aran'gar snesed she'd been shielded darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 07:20:48 PM 2190 Views
Re: I'm contending that it's possible Aran'gar snesed she'd been shielded Sidious - 22/09/2010 07:26:52 PM 2156 Views
Again, I just find that option completely unlikely since Graendals angreal isn't all that strong darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 07:39:02 PM 1416 Views
You've made a long list of channelers "incompetant" and "untrained". Enough. fionwe1987 - 23/09/2010 01:53:25 AM 1505 Views
Re: You've made a long list of channelers "incompetant" and "untrained". Enough. darius_sedai - 23/09/2010 03:42:31 PM 1405 Views
fionwe1987 - 23/09/2010 03:54:02 PM 1408 Views
Re: . The evidence is that no channeled is that strong! darius_sedai - 23/09/2010 04:04:02 PM 1531 Views
Really? fionwe1987 - 23/09/2010 06:11:00 PM 1483 Views
Re: Really? Sidious - 23/09/2010 09:56:09 PM 1359 Views
That's my point *NM* darius_sedai - 24/09/2010 12:20:45 AM 967 Views
Dear God! The sheer amount of replies here just blew my mind, and my window (jk). *NM* Bookwyrm - 24/09/2010 07:28:14 PM 988 Views
Y o u' r e h u r t i n g m y s c r o l l b a r *NM* Marshall - 24/09/2010 11:30:27 PM 983 Views
Re: She says... Sidious - 22/09/2010 07:12:48 PM 1412 Views
Exactly. fionwe1987 - 23/09/2010 01:54:05 AM 1393 Views
The way it reads she is holding open a Gateway, then slams shields on both darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 07:08:17 PM 1387 Views
Continue being irrational then... fionwe1987 - 22/09/2010 05:46:19 PM 1487 Views
Re: Continue being irrational then... darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 05:53:05 PM 1349 Views
Re: Continue being irrational then... fionwe1987 - 22/09/2010 07:03:02 PM 1369 Views
Nope darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 07:19:30 PM 1269 Views
Re: Nope fionwe1987 - 23/09/2010 02:06:35 AM 1418 Views
Toveine! Now THAT is a good catch, fionwe! Mik - 23/09/2010 07:57:05 AM 1531 Views
Sidious pointed it out, actually. But thanks! fionwe1987 - 23/09/2010 03:55:29 PM 1410 Views
And you ignore all the evidence in the series that definitively makes it impossible for Graendal to darius_sedai - 23/09/2010 03:57:49 PM 1301 Views
Well... Sidious - 23/09/2010 04:31:27 PM 1485 Views
According to Fionwe she isn't using the angreal darius_sedai - 24/09/2010 11:18:30 PM 1611 Views
Re: According to Fionwe she isn't using the angreal Sidious - 25/09/2010 09:38:41 AM 1455 Views
Possible, but he specifically calls out when she ties off other weaves in the scene darius_sedai - 25/09/2010 04:28:48 PM 1467 Views
Re: Continue being irrational then... iHeartGraendal - 24/09/2010 03:20:49 AM 1575 Views
Oh come on.. be real Sidious - 22/09/2010 05:39:51 PM 1377 Views
see that's an argument that makes more sense to me darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 05:47:17 PM 1460 Views
Re: How did she know there was a shield? Gee69 - 24/09/2010 04:42:25 AM 1401 Views
You can sense the source when shielded. Entering a stedding you can't even sense it. *NM* Myrdhyn - 24/09/2010 02:46:09 PM 1078 Views
You'[re missing the part about the bonds of air as well Ryan - 21/09/2010 11:06:04 PM 1398 Views
No. The sequence was shield-gasp-tie off shield-wrap in Air. *NM* fionwe1987 - 21/09/2010 11:14:41 PM 1011 Views
We have seen people holding the source caught off guard by a shield *NM* Ryan - 22/09/2010 12:10:48 AM 963 Views
Well, exactly! fionwe1987 - 22/09/2010 02:01:12 AM 1456 Views
Aran'gar and Delana were caught with their pants down by Graendal Ryan - 22/09/2010 06:40:41 AM 1676 Views
What I think happened Sidious - 22/09/2010 09:19:57 AM 1427 Views
It's not the male/female issue. It's a Forsaken vs Forsaken issue... Shannow - 22/09/2010 10:06:47 AM 1374 Views
Re: It's not the male/female issue. It's a Forsaken vs Forsaken issue... Sidious - 22/09/2010 01:31:52 PM 1462 Views
Fair point. Shannow - 22/09/2010 02:07:05 PM 1446 Views
I think it also bears mentioning that ... Bookwyrm - 22/09/2010 04:17:17 PM 1457 Views
Graendal knew Aran'gar was distracted malekithe - 23/09/2010 07:10:52 AM 1367 Views
About shielding a channeler holding the Source... lilltempest - 22/09/2010 05:51:34 PM 2475 Views
Re: About shielding a channeler holding the Source... Sidious - 22/09/2010 07:04:37 PM 2914 Views
The angreal makes this an unnecessary debate... Shannow - 22/09/2010 07:09:20 PM 1369 Views
she never shielded them darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 07:22:29 PM 1371 Views
True...But it made her strong enough to easily overcome both... Shannow - 22/09/2010 07:28:12 PM 1321 Views
This I can believe ... it's just problematic since the angreal isn't mentioned darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 07:51:19 PM 1422 Views
Re: This I can believe ... it's just problematic since the angreal isn't mentioned Sidious - 22/09/2010 07:54:18 PM 1378 Views
LMAO... nice! darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 08:24:20 PM 1394 Views
I think we need to place Aran'gar lower too.. fionwe1987 - 22/09/2010 07:10:29 PM 1463 Views
A lot of unsubstantiated assumptions there... Shannow - 22/09/2010 07:13:51 PM 1301 Views
I would agree Sidious - 22/09/2010 07:22:50 PM 1455 Views
Re: I would agree darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 07:25:46 PM 1316 Views
Re: A lot of unsubstantiated assumptions there... fionwe1987 - 23/09/2010 03:03:26 AM 1387 Views
Mostly agree darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 07:23:53 PM 1374 Views
Re: Mostly agree Sidious - 22/09/2010 07:28:42 PM 1336 Views
Ever wonder why Graendal was given an angreal in the first place... Shannow - 22/09/2010 07:34:21 PM 1434 Views
Re: Ever wonder why Graendal was given an angreal in the first place... Sidious - 22/09/2010 07:50:55 PM 1477 Views
I am starting to believe that RJ didn't think quite so literally darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 08:07:45 PM 1390 Views
Not sure if you agreed with this before, but I reached this point awhile ago bwahaha RugbyPlayingAshaman - 22/09/2010 08:53:42 PM 1415 Views
I've been on this side for a good long while darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 09:40:43 PM 1517 Views
*NM* alanna aes sedai - 28/09/2010 11:54:54 PM 922 Views
Well there is one thing to consider about this darius_sedai - 21/09/2010 07:32:44 PM 1636 Views
Yes, that seems the most likely answer. That and the use of the angreal. Shannow - 21/09/2010 07:35:53 PM 1520 Views
Aren't female channelers more dexterous in weaving than male? So her speed could be part of that. *NM* Bookwyrm - 22/09/2010 03:42:56 AM 939 Views
Re: Not even Ishamael could shield another male Forsaken and an Aes Sedai at the same time... The Angry Druid - 01/10/2010 12:23:57 AM 1408 Views
I'm disappointed that the dove was not hidden in a background description in the tGS scene... Shannow - 21/09/2010 08:22:29 PM 1504 Views
I was thinking the same thing ... was actually just about to go look for it myself! darius_sedai - 21/09/2010 09:01:34 PM 1488 Views
I'm happy there wasn't... fionwe1987 - 21/09/2010 09:18:30 PM 1524 Views
Do you have more detail on Graendal's comments about Aginor's extensive use of the True Power? Shannow - 21/09/2010 09:23:48 PM 1483 Views
Re: Do you have more detail on Graendal's comments about Aginor's extensive use of the True Power? fionwe1987 - 21/09/2010 09:52:07 PM 1617 Views
Very interesting. Another case of a character never utilised to his full potential in the series... Shannow - 21/09/2010 09:57:42 PM 1366 Views
True... fionwe1987 - 21/09/2010 10:02:59 PM 1366 Views
So there are 6 Forsaken left. Tom - 21/09/2010 10:23:22 PM 1676 Views
For the record Heiko - 21/09/2010 10:53:16 PM 1567 Views
She opened two Gateways, IIRC BlackAdder - 21/09/2010 11:58:29 PM 1454 Views
Re: She opened two Gateways, IIRC Heiko - 22/09/2010 02:21:47 AM 1485 Views
I am so glad Graendal is alive. I (& hopefully other "Graendal's Alive" supporters) feel vindicated. *NM* Bookwyrm - 22/09/2010 03:01:07 AM 1087 Views
Did anyone else feel that the Graendal scene was one big infodump? Marshall - 22/09/2010 03:32:44 AM 1596 Views
That's exactly what I was thinking the entire time. It didn't ruin my enjoyment though. Myrdhyn - 22/09/2010 07:12:00 PM 1465 Views
Wait...so NO ONE has wanted to discuss the Sapphic scene at Graendal's place? Tom - 22/09/2010 03:48:36 AM 1621 Views
yes, totally Lesbian. *NM* darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 03:04:16 PM 967 Views
No, the other L word. "LesbiAHNS?" *NM* Bookwyrm - 22/09/2010 04:18:55 PM 1022 Views
Yes, it was totally lesbian. Myrdhyn - 22/09/2010 07:09:19 PM 1423 Views
No, not at all. Aran'gar is still a dude at heart. I think. *NM* BlackAdder - 22/09/2010 08:18:55 PM 988 Views
I tend to agree Sidious - 23/09/2010 05:42:52 PM 1429 Views
Lady parts + Lady parts = Lesbian sex darius_sedai - 24/09/2010 11:24:36 PM 2043 Views
Yes, but its still a little off Sidious - 25/09/2010 09:40:16 AM 1479 Views
Transgender is a little convoluted I suppose darius_sedai - 25/09/2010 04:41:33 PM 1625 Views
Re: Transgender is a little convoluted I suppose Sidious - 25/09/2010 05:25:10 PM 1528 Views
What does Graendal think of Rand? Sidious - 22/09/2010 02:00:28 PM 1600 Views
She was really surprised and scared. Rurouni_Kenshin - 22/09/2010 02:11:28 PM 1559 Views
I take it you haven't read the Prologue. Tom - 22/09/2010 02:16:49 PM 1441 Views
Quite a bit... fionwe1987 - 22/09/2010 02:31:14 PM 1601 Views
Agreed, she's been worrying about him since the begining darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 03:18:48 PM 1630 Views
Thanks for the answers *NM* Sidious - 22/09/2010 05:46:05 PM 928 Views
Second best prologue ever... lilltempest - 22/09/2010 06:24:44 PM 1824 Views
It's my favorite ever. Only one dark spot tarnished it. Myrdhyn - 22/09/2010 07:18:12 PM 1469 Views
Yeah, tEotW is the best... BlackAdder - 22/09/2010 08:22:12 PM 1499 Views
Aran'gar is a tool Sidious - 22/09/2010 07:31:36 PM 1637 Views
I would think this argues against your contention that she would hold saidin to the max... Shannow - 22/09/2010 07:36:09 PM 1422 Views
Re: I would think this argues against your contention that she would hold saidin to the max... Sidious - 22/09/2010 07:51:53 PM 1371 Views
Remembering the last time male channelers held reversed weaves in the presence of Rand's party... Shannow - 22/09/2010 07:55:12 PM 1318 Views
Yes. s/He was. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 22/09/2010 08:59:16 PM 1470 Views
Shadow invading Kandor and Lan riding trough it. CONNECTION? 4th Dimension - 22/09/2010 08:36:05 PM 1630 Views
Are Fain's resurrected trollocks undead? RandAllThor - 23/09/2010 01:43:01 AM 1489 Views
After 13 books you still can't spell "trollocs"...wow...that's just...wow... *NM* Tom - 23/09/2010 03:41:24 PM 980 Views
Thanks for taking up space on this board to point out my shortcomings. Always appreciated. *NM* RandAllThor - 23/09/2010 05:23:19 PM 951 Views
Sidious - 23/09/2010 04:47:11 PM 1537 Views
Nice prologue, but not superb, IMO Etzel - 23/09/2010 05:45:41 PM 1558 Views
Re: Nice prologue, but not superb, IMO Sidious - 23/09/2010 09:54:33 PM 1528 Views
Well, that is one prediction I made correctly! Etzel would find a way to make it look like Slayer darius_sedai - 25/09/2010 05:43:20 PM 1578 Views
I believe that Sanderson concocted the entire Graendal/Rand/Balefire part Marshall - 23/09/2010 10:24:46 PM 2176 Views
I had a similar thought, but... RandAllThor - 23/09/2010 10:40:58 PM 1482 Views
Probably not Sanderson 4th Dimension - 23/09/2010 11:11:54 PM 1514 Views
No way Rurouni_Kenshin - 24/09/2010 07:14:35 AM 1444 Views
I can't see team Jordan allowing any deviation on what RJ would have laid out darius_sedai - 12/10/2010 08:32:50 PM 1592 Views
I agree. *NM* Etzel - 25/09/2010 09:42:46 AM 973 Views
A few nits Terez - 12/10/2010 10:21:27 AM 1439 Views
Canadian Download site alanna aes sedai - 29/09/2010 12:05:12 AM 1940 Views
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