Re: It's not the male/female issue. It's a Forsaken vs Forsaken issue...
Sidious Send a noteboard - 22/09/2010 01:31:52 PM
I think its pretty clear that Aran'gar was holding saidin if she gasped. It's a recurrent reaction we've seen when a channeler is suddenly shielded and loses their connection with the Source.
I also don't think that strength is a primary determinant here. Graendal is immensely skilled. Aran'gar was facing the window and unprepared. We know that channelers can shield one another if they are of equal strength. IMO Graendal is stronger or equal to her and overwhelmed her with sheer speed and surprise. Whether she used the angreal is difficult say, but the author usually mentions if a channeler pulls through one.
We also don't know whether she shielded Delana and Aran'gar at the exact same time, or did it quickly and sequentially. She's certainly fast enough to pull off two shields that look like a single weaving.
Anyway, I don't find it a big stretch for a female Forsaken to shield a male. I think it's been a well established fact that the females are close to the males in strength, and Graendal is near to the top of all channeling strengths.
If it was that easy for Graendal to incapacitate Balthamel (and an Aes Sedai at the same time), then the Moghediens, Mesaanas, Asmodeans etc. of this world would not have existed for very long.
Not to mention what more powerful channelers than Graendal (Ishamael, Cyndane, Lanfear etc) could have done to them.
I mean, Rand himself said that just shielding two normal Aes Sedai is no trifling matter of the Power, let alone shielding a Forsaken and an Aes Sedai at the same time.
Anyway, I just question what this would imply for the ability of weaker members of the Forsaken to survive for any length of time.
But it is that easy. It's been made clear on several occasions that the Forsaken are at maximum readiness while they're around each other. Even very powerful Forsaken like Sammael, Lanfear and Rahvin fill themselves to the brim with the One Power when they're around each other. They prepare counter weaves and hold them in place and watch each other intently. It only takes one slip, and I do believe Aran'gar may be the first true example of this that we've seen in the series. She did the worst thing possible - she allowed herself to be distracted by Rand, turned away and allowed Graendal to be placed behind her. Such a small thing is all that was needed for Graendal to have the upper hand, and ultimately led to Aran'gar's downfall. I do think that many Forsaken fell in such a casual manner, which is why channelers like the Forsaken survived. They never ever let their guard down. It must be very stressful.
If they're ready around each other, then none of these Forsaken can take each other on, but even Rahvin alluded to the danger of having Lanfear behind him. He could very easily have died in that scene had Lanfear not wished to speak with him. He didn't even know she was there until she spoke. Aran'gar is the end-point of what I've always suspected would happen to someone like that if they became too comfortable around Graendal.
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This message last edited by Sidious on 22/09/2010 at 01:34:10 PM
Towers of Midnight : Prologue discussion
21/09/2010 04:38:40 AM
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Me Too! Guess who is alive!!
21/09/2010 04:44:40 AM
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A dove, that's weird
21/09/2010 03:19:10 PM
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Re: A dove, that's weird
21/09/2010 03:26:39 PM
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What Ryan said. And we only assumed that they can only use those animals *NM*
21/09/2010 06:53:05 PM
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You all can go to heck (and find me a link!) *NM*
21/09/2010 05:10:47 AM
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Re: You all can go to heck (and find me a link!)
21/09/2010 05:14:26 AM
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Anyone find the audiobook version? *NM*
21/09/2010 10:20:22 AM
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If you're in the US, Audible.com. No clue about availability in the UK. *NM*
21/09/2010 06:29:45 PM
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Could somebody post a link to where they got it? I want to go to a site where I can download now *NM*
21/09/2010 05:39:13 AM
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Regarding Graendal
21/09/2010 10:12:42 AM
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a very weak angreal
21/09/2010 04:55:15 PM
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Graendal watched Aran'gar get nuked. Aran'gar is gone gone gone.
21/09/2010 10:11:41 PM
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The laughter in Perrin's Dream
21/09/2010 02:24:14 PM
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Not even Ishamael could shield another male Forsaken and an Aes Sedai at the same time...
21/09/2010 06:46:42 PM
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It's different (I think?) but I'm certainly no expert and I'm sure someone else will reply
21/09/2010 06:57:18 PM
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OK, I haven't read the scene, so I don't know if Arangar was holding saidin at the time or not
21/09/2010 07:00:23 PM
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Re: OK, I haven't read the scene, so I don't know if Arangar was holding saidin at the time or not.
21/09/2010 07:11:42 PM
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Thanks. Was Arangar channeling at the time?
21/09/2010 07:13:53 PM
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I think so, yes.
21/09/2010 07:15:44 PM
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I don't think so actually
21/09/2010 07:57:42 PM
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I don't think Aran'gar was channeling
21/09/2010 11:00:22 PM
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I don't think she even closed her Gateway. It think it was BF'd *NM*
21/09/2010 11:52:01 PM
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Re: I don't think she even closed her Gateway. It think it was BF'd
22/09/2010 02:57:02 AM
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So here's what happens...
21/09/2010 07:15:03 PM
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Thanks. A few comments...
21/09/2010 07:27:33 PM
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I don't rule out the angreal...
21/09/2010 07:32:40 PM
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Elayne's weakest angreal doubles her strength. Graendal x2 can easily shield Cyndane+Moggy, so...
21/09/2010 07:35:06 PM
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I disasgree. There is no evidence that Aran'gar was holding saidin at the time
21/09/2010 07:42:23 PM
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Then why did she gasp at the shield? She couldn't have known what Graendal was weaving.
21/09/2010 07:52:49 PM
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because she was surprised that Graendal would put a shield on her in the first place
21/09/2010 07:58:45 PM
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How did she know there was a shield?
21/09/2010 09:16:59 PM
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Fact: Graendal cannot shield a male Forsaken and an Aes Sedai if they are holding the Source...
21/09/2010 09:28:17 PM
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Who said "they"?
21/09/2010 09:55:28 PM
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Depends on the level of surprise, I guess. If he was only holding a trickle of saidin, then maybe
21/09/2010 10:05:37 PM
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I really don't think you have to be holding the source to know you've been shielded
21/09/2010 10:29:20 PM
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Provide evidence?
21/09/2010 10:36:36 PM
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Thanks, but like I said, they were both wrapped in air. That's enough for Aran'gar to wonder
21/09/2010 10:44:17 PM
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Siuan was distracted by a number of other things going on, not to mention how suspect
22/09/2010 02:43:36 PM
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And Aran'gar was fully focussed on Graendal?
22/09/2010 03:02:16 PM
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More so than Siuan was on Elaida when they were shielded.
22/09/2010 03:33:15 PM
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So?
22/09/2010 03:48:11 PM
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It doesn't matter. There are more Shieldings that go unnoticed when not holding the Source
22/09/2010 03:55:48 PM
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we don't know that
22/09/2010 02:35:50 PM
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Give over, Darius... there's plenty of evidence...
22/09/2010 03:45:11 PM
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Give over what? There is no hard evidence that Aran'gar wouldn't notice a shield put on her
22/09/2010 05:00:11 PM
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What rot... (also, Egwene and Rand)
22/09/2010 05:21:08 PM
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take a pill Fionwe ... no need to go batshit on me for having an opinion.
22/09/2010 05:38:21 PM
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Re: take a pill Fionwe ... no need to go batshit on me for having an opinion.
22/09/2010 05:45:05 PM
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if it was JUST one shield ... but she's shielding an AS and weaving a Gateway too!
22/09/2010 05:48:52 PM
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Well...
22/09/2010 07:00:26 PM
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She says...
22/09/2010 07:04:32 PM
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no one is arguing that
22/09/2010 07:09:17 PM
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Er...
22/09/2010 07:19:09 PM
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I'm contending that it's possible Aran'gar snesed she'd been shielded
22/09/2010 07:20:48 PM
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Re: I'm contending that it's possible Aran'gar snesed she'd been shielded
22/09/2010 07:26:52 PM
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Again, I just find that option completely unlikely since Graendals angreal isn't all that strong
22/09/2010 07:39:02 PM
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You've made a long list of channelers "incompetant" and "untrained". Enough.
23/09/2010 01:53:25 AM
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Re: You've made a long list of channelers "incompetant" and "untrained". Enough.
23/09/2010 03:42:31 PM
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23/09/2010 03:54:02 PM
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Re:
. The evidence is that no channeled is that strong!
23/09/2010 04:04:02 PM
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Really?
23/09/2010 06:11:00 PM
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Re: Really?
23/09/2010 09:56:09 PM
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That's my point *NM*
24/09/2010 12:20:45 AM
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Dear God! The sheer amount of replies here just blew my mind, and my window (jk).
*NM*
24/09/2010 07:28:14 PM
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The way it reads she is holding open a Gateway, then slams shields on both
22/09/2010 07:08:17 PM
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Continue being irrational then...
22/09/2010 05:46:19 PM
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Re: Continue being irrational then...
22/09/2010 05:53:05 PM
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Re: Continue being irrational then...
22/09/2010 07:03:02 PM
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Nope
22/09/2010 07:19:30 PM
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Re: Nope
23/09/2010 02:06:35 AM
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And you ignore all the evidence in the series that definitively makes it impossible for Graendal to
23/09/2010 03:57:49 PM
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Well...
23/09/2010 04:31:27 PM
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According to Fionwe she isn't using the angreal
24/09/2010 11:18:30 PM
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Re: According to Fionwe she isn't using the angreal
25/09/2010 09:38:41 AM
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Possible, but he specifically calls out when she ties off other weaves in the scene
25/09/2010 04:28:48 PM
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Re: How did she know there was a shield?
24/09/2010 04:42:25 AM
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You can sense the source when shielded. Entering a stedding you can't even sense it. *NM*
24/09/2010 02:46:09 PM
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You'[re missing the part about the bonds of air as well
21/09/2010 11:06:04 PM
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No. The sequence was shield-gasp-tie off shield-wrap in Air. *NM*
21/09/2010 11:14:41 PM
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We have seen people holding the source caught off guard by a shield *NM*
22/09/2010 12:10:48 AM
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Well, exactly!
22/09/2010 02:01:12 AM
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Aran'gar and Delana were caught with their pants down by Graendal
22/09/2010 06:40:41 AM
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What I think happened
22/09/2010 09:19:57 AM
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It's not the male/female issue. It's a Forsaken vs Forsaken issue...
22/09/2010 10:06:47 AM
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Re: It's not the male/female issue. It's a Forsaken vs Forsaken issue...
22/09/2010 01:31:52 PM
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About shielding a channeler holding the Source...
22/09/2010 05:51:34 PM
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Re: About shielding a channeler holding the Source...
22/09/2010 07:04:37 PM
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The angreal makes this an unnecessary debate...
22/09/2010 07:09:20 PM
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she never shielded them
22/09/2010 07:22:29 PM
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True...But it made her strong enough to easily overcome both...
22/09/2010 07:28:12 PM
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This I can believe ... it's just problematic since the angreal isn't mentioned
22/09/2010 07:51:19 PM
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Re: This I can believe ... it's just problematic since the angreal isn't mentioned
22/09/2010 07:54:18 PM
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I think we need to place Aran'gar lower too..
22/09/2010 07:10:29 PM
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A lot of unsubstantiated assumptions there...
22/09/2010 07:13:51 PM
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Mostly agree
22/09/2010 07:23:53 PM
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Re: Mostly agree
22/09/2010 07:28:42 PM
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Ever wonder why Graendal was given an angreal in the first place...
22/09/2010 07:34:21 PM
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Re: Ever wonder why Graendal was given an angreal in the first place...
22/09/2010 07:50:55 PM
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I am starting to believe that RJ didn't think quite so literally
22/09/2010 08:07:45 PM
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Not sure if you agreed with this before, but I reached this point awhile ago bwahaha
22/09/2010 08:53:42 PM
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Well there is one thing to consider about this
21/09/2010 07:32:44 PM
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Yes, that seems the most likely answer. That and the use of the angreal.
21/09/2010 07:35:53 PM
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Aren't female channelers more dexterous in weaving than male? So her speed could be part of that. *NM*
22/09/2010 03:42:56 AM
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Re: Not even Ishamael could shield another male Forsaken and an Aes Sedai at the same time...
01/10/2010 12:23:57 AM
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I'm disappointed that the dove was not hidden in a background description in the tGS scene...
21/09/2010 08:22:29 PM
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I was thinking the same thing ... was actually just about to go look for it myself!
21/09/2010 09:01:34 PM
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I'm happy there wasn't...
21/09/2010 09:18:30 PM
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Do you have more detail on Graendal's comments about Aginor's extensive use of the True Power?
21/09/2010 09:23:48 PM
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Re: Do you have more detail on Graendal's comments about Aginor's extensive use of the True Power?
21/09/2010 09:52:07 PM
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Very interesting. Another case of a character never utilised to his full potential in the series...
21/09/2010 09:57:42 PM
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For the record
21/09/2010 10:53:16 PM
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I am so glad Graendal is alive. I (& hopefully other "Graendal's Alive" supporters) feel vindicated. *NM*
22/09/2010 03:01:07 AM
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Did anyone else feel that the Graendal scene was one big infodump?
22/09/2010 03:32:44 AM
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That's exactly what I was thinking the entire time. It didn't ruin my enjoyment though.
22/09/2010 07:12:00 PM
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Wait...so NO ONE has wanted to discuss the Sapphic scene at Graendal's place?
22/09/2010 03:48:36 AM
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No, not at all. Aran'gar is still a dude at heart. I think. *NM*
22/09/2010 08:18:55 PM
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I tend to agree
23/09/2010 05:42:52 PM
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Lady parts + Lady parts = Lesbian sex
24/09/2010 11:24:36 PM
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Yes, but its still a little off
25/09/2010 09:40:16 AM
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What does Graendal think of Rand?
22/09/2010 02:00:28 PM
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Aran'gar is a tool
22/09/2010 07:31:36 PM
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I would think this argues against your contention that she would hold saidin to the max...
22/09/2010 07:36:09 PM
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Re: I would think this argues against your contention that she would hold saidin to the max...
22/09/2010 07:51:53 PM
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Remembering the last time male channelers held reversed weaves in the presence of Rand's party...
22/09/2010 07:55:12 PM
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Are Fain's resurrected trollocks undead?
23/09/2010 01:43:01 AM
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After 13 books you still can't spell "trollocs"...wow...that's just...wow... *NM*
23/09/2010 03:41:24 PM
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Thanks for taking up space on this board to point out my shortcomings. Always appreciated. *NM*
23/09/2010 05:23:19 PM
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Nice prologue, but not superb, IMO
23/09/2010 05:45:41 PM
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Re: Nice prologue, but not superb, IMO
23/09/2010 09:54:33 PM
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Well, that is one prediction I made correctly! Etzel would find a way to make it look like Slayer
25/09/2010 05:43:20 PM
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I believe that Sanderson concocted the entire Graendal/Rand/Balefire part
23/09/2010 10:24:46 PM
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No way
24/09/2010 07:14:35 AM
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I can't see team Jordan allowing any deviation on what RJ would have laid out
12/10/2010 08:32:50 PM
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