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Thanks. A few comments... Shannow Send a noteboard - 21/09/2010 07:27:33 PM
Graendal is holding the TP and using a dove to spy on Rand. She sees him take out the Access Key and quickly figures out what he's planning. She releases the TP, and in a panic, almost fails to embrace Saidar.

She then first weaves a Gateway. After that, Aran'gar, who's watching out of the window, makes a comment about how much of the Power Rand was holding. Graendal realizes that since Aran'gar and Delana wove compulsion on Ramshalan, they'd have to die, or else Rand would think Graendal was alive. So she slams a shield into both of them, and ties them off. As she does this, both women gasp. Delana gasping is no surprise, since she can see Graendal weave a shield. Thus, she may not have been holding the source. That Aran'gar gasped implies to me that she was holding the source, and felt it get cut off (and it makes sense that she was holding the source. Rand had just channeled enormous amounts of the OP). After tying off the shields, Graendal now wraps the two women in Air, and flees through her Gateway. At no time is the angreal mentioned.

Some critical things:

Graendal is confident that Aran'gar cannot break through her shield anytime soon. Since she made it really really fast, I doubt she made a complicated knot. That means that Graendal is enough stronger than Aran'gar that the other woman can't easily brush off her shield.

Graendal is a really fast channeler. That even in a panicked state she could do so many things that required so much power implies to me that she is one of the most skilled among the Foresaken. I think only Lanfear could have done the same.

More than anything else, Graendal is an intelligent channeler, which makes her much more dangerous than her strength alone would have. She's certainly been set up as Moridin's counterpart among the females, with her TP access.

Nynaeve has insane skill with Healing. The way Graendal phrases it, someone with the ability to read her compulsions is extremely rare. It might interest you to know that before she figured out that Rand was going to BF Natrin's Barrow, Graendal made a plan to kill Nynaeve.


If you're equal to someone in strength they will not be able to break through your shield once they're cut off. To break a shield, you have to be much STRONGER than the person shielding you, e.g. Logain and Nynaeve's temporary shield, Amys holding Egewene temporarily despite being much weaker than her, and direct comments to that effect by Rand courtesy of Lews Therin.

The more difficult aspect is to cut off the other channeler in the first place. Here I have only your description to go on, but since Sanderson doesn't bother to mention whether Arangar is holding the Source or not it seems likely that he also did not bother to mention whether Graendal used her angreal or not.

If Graendal could cut off Arangar from the Source while he was channeling, and cut off an Aes Sedai at the same time, then imagine what Cyndane - who Graendal herself said is stronger than her - and Lanfear - who Mesaana said is stronger than Cyndane, or any of the strongest male channelers could have done to Arangar.

It seems unlikely that he would have survived this long, if he was that easy to overcome. This is especially troubling given the comment that he was quite strong in the Power, and also given the deduction that pretty much the only reason this rather stupid and unskilled Forsaken has survived for so long was his raw strength in the Power.

It seems more feasible that Graendal used her angreal in this scene, which also allowed her to shield Cyndane and Moghedien together in PoD.

Regarding Graendal being able to use the True Power. It is not so much her being a female counter to Moridin, as Moridin having "deputized" her in tGS, and thus allowing her to use a bit of the True Power as his sidekick. Remember, she apparently said she was only allowed to use a small amount of it. This ties in with Moridin giving her this "just below the Nae'blis" privilege as a reward for her service.
This message last edited by Shannow on 21/09/2010 at 07:29:54 PM
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Towers of Midnight : Prologue discussion - 21/09/2010 04:38:40 AM 8413 Views
Me Too! Guess who is alive!! - 21/09/2010 04:44:40 AM 2158 Views
A dove, that's weird - 21/09/2010 03:19:10 PM 1902 Views
Re: A dove, that's weird - 21/09/2010 03:26:39 PM 1851 Views
Yes, that's the point - 21/09/2010 11:49:00 PM 1701 Views
It did feel a bit deus ex machina - 22/09/2010 12:03:05 AM 1813 Views
Fain is as creepy as ever - 21/09/2010 05:06:35 AM 1926 Views
You all can go to heck (and find me a link!) *NM* - 21/09/2010 05:10:47 AM 1206 Views
Re: You all can go to heck (and find me a link!) - 21/09/2010 05:14:26 AM 2019 Views
It's D/L on B&N now *NM* - 21/09/2010 05:15:44 AM 1105 Views
Anyone find the audiobook version? *NM* - 21/09/2010 10:20:22 AM 1075 Views
I love the borderlanders - 21/09/2010 05:25:29 AM 1883 Views
Best scene of the prologue *NM* - 21/09/2010 03:28:28 PM 1155 Views
Could somebody post a link to where they got it? I want to go to a site where I can download now *NM* - 21/09/2010 05:39:13 AM 1068 Views
I posted some links here - 21/09/2010 06:04:38 AM 1754 Views
My quick summary - 21/09/2010 06:02:41 AM 2525 Views
Whoa, whoa, whoa. - 23/09/2010 02:59:37 AM 1600 Views
It's good, but... Perrin. Ugh. - 21/09/2010 07:37:43 AM 1933 Views
Awesome! - 21/09/2010 09:00:45 AM 1698 Views
Regarding Graendal - 21/09/2010 10:12:42 AM 2197 Views
Some things... - 21/09/2010 01:18:10 PM 1769 Views
I'm glad. Being right is a good feeling - 21/09/2010 04:12:08 PM 1714 Views
a very weak angreal - 21/09/2010 04:55:15 PM 1726 Views
Even a weak angreal - 21/09/2010 05:47:26 PM 1659 Views
The Angreal Elayne mentions made her 2x as strong as Nynaeve - 21/09/2010 06:04:21 PM 1532 Views
The laughter in Perrin's Dream - 21/09/2010 02:24:14 PM 1786 Views
Probably Slayer - 21/09/2010 04:29:41 PM 1657 Views
Re: Probably Slayer - 21/09/2010 04:39:36 PM 1463 Views
Audio Book - 21/09/2010 06:39:54 PM 1597 Views
Not even Ishamael could shield another male Forsaken and an Aes Sedai at the same time... - 21/09/2010 06:46:42 PM 1803 Views
It's different (I think?) but I'm certainly no expert and I'm sure someone else will reply - 21/09/2010 06:57:18 PM 1714 Views
OK, I haven't read the scene, so I don't know if Arangar was holding saidin at the time or not - 21/09/2010 07:00:23 PM 1527 Views
Re: OK, I haven't read the scene, so I don't know if Arangar was holding saidin at the time or not. - 21/09/2010 07:11:42 PM 1633 Views
Thanks. Was Arangar channeling at the time? - 21/09/2010 07:13:53 PM 1619 Views
I think so, yes. - 21/09/2010 07:15:44 PM 1559 Views
I don't think so actually - 21/09/2010 07:57:42 PM 1647 Views
I don't think Aran'gar was channeling - 21/09/2010 11:00:22 PM 1609 Views
I don't think she even closed her Gateway. It think it was BF'd *NM* - 21/09/2010 11:52:01 PM 930 Views
no she wasn't *NM* - 21/09/2010 10:25:13 PM 1040 Views
nope, no power - 23/09/2010 03:05:30 AM 1480 Views
So here's what happens... - 21/09/2010 07:15:03 PM 1998 Views
Thanks. A few comments... - 21/09/2010 07:27:33 PM 1481 Views
I don't rule out the angreal... - 21/09/2010 07:32:40 PM 1516 Views
Elayne's weakest angreal doubles her strength. Graendal x2 can easily shield Cyndane+Moggy, so... - 21/09/2010 07:35:06 PM 1648 Views
Graendal's seemed much weaker... - 21/09/2010 07:52:20 PM 1517 Views
Elayne also called the x2 turtle angreal "weak"... - 21/09/2010 08:00:01 PM 1523 Views
and we know it wasn't enough to overwhlem Verin's circle - 21/09/2010 08:02:13 PM 1368 Views
I disasgree. There is no evidence that Aran'gar was holding saidin at the time - 21/09/2010 07:42:23 PM 1463 Views
Then why did she gasp at the shield? She couldn't have known what Graendal was weaving. - 21/09/2010 07:52:49 PM 1497 Views
because she was surprised that Graendal would put a shield on her in the first place - 21/09/2010 07:58:45 PM 1513 Views
How did she know there was a shield? - 21/09/2010 09:16:59 PM 1472 Views
Fact: Graendal cannot shield a male Forsaken and an Aes Sedai if they are holding the Source... - 21/09/2010 09:28:17 PM 1467 Views
Who said "they"? - 21/09/2010 09:55:28 PM 1442 Views
I really don't think you have to be holding the source to know you've been shielded - 21/09/2010 10:29:20 PM 1416 Views
Provide evidence? - 21/09/2010 10:36:36 PM 1468 Views
Thanks, but like I said, they were both wrapped in air. That's enough for Aran'gar to wonder - 21/09/2010 10:44:17 PM 1378 Views
They gasped before Graendal wove Air... - 21/09/2010 11:13:48 PM 1446 Views
Alright, you win *NM* - 22/09/2010 02:51:26 AM 972 Views
*NM* - 22/09/2010 03:06:22 AM 839 Views
Siuan was distracted by a number of other things going on, not to mention how suspect - 22/09/2010 02:43:36 PM 1363 Views
And Aran'gar was fully focussed on Graendal? - 22/09/2010 03:02:16 PM 1600 Views
More so than Siuan was on Elaida when they were shielded. - 22/09/2010 03:33:15 PM 2379 Views
So? - 22/09/2010 03:48:11 PM 1303 Views
It doesn't matter. There are more Shieldings that go unnoticed when not holding the Source - 22/09/2010 03:55:48 PM 1409 Views
Nice catches! - 22/09/2010 04:06:52 PM 1507 Views
we don't know that - 22/09/2010 02:35:50 PM 1445 Views
Huh? - 22/09/2010 03:03:52 PM 1385 Views
Give over, Darius... there's plenty of evidence... - 22/09/2010 03:45:11 PM 1434 Views
Give over what? There is no hard evidence that Aran'gar wouldn't notice a shield put on her - 22/09/2010 05:00:11 PM 1343 Views
What rot... (also, Egwene and Rand) - 22/09/2010 05:21:08 PM 1450 Views
take a pill Fionwe ... no need to go batshit on me for having an opinion. - 22/09/2010 05:38:21 PM 1428 Views
Re: take a pill Fionwe ... no need to go batshit on me for having an opinion. - 22/09/2010 05:45:05 PM 1549 Views
if it was JUST one shield ... but she's shielding an AS and weaving a Gateway too! - 22/09/2010 05:48:52 PM 3466 Views
Well... - 22/09/2010 07:00:26 PM 1482 Views
She says... - 22/09/2010 07:04:32 PM 1483 Views
no one is arguing that - 22/09/2010 07:09:17 PM 1423 Views
Er... - 22/09/2010 07:19:09 PM 1381 Views
I'm contending that it's possible Aran'gar snesed she'd been shielded - 22/09/2010 07:20:48 PM 2209 Views
Re: I'm contending that it's possible Aran'gar snesed she'd been shielded - 22/09/2010 07:26:52 PM 2177 Views
Again, I just find that option completely unlikely since Graendals angreal isn't all that strong - 22/09/2010 07:39:02 PM 1435 Views
You've made a long list of channelers "incompetant" and "untrained". Enough. - 23/09/2010 01:53:25 AM 1520 Views
Re: You've made a long list of channelers "incompetant" and "untrained". Enough. - 23/09/2010 03:42:31 PM 1420 Views
- 23/09/2010 03:54:02 PM 1421 Views
Re: . The evidence is that no channeled is that strong! - 23/09/2010 04:04:02 PM 1544 Views
Really? - 23/09/2010 06:11:00 PM 1504 Views
Re: Really? - 23/09/2010 09:56:09 PM 1373 Views
That's my point *NM* - 24/09/2010 12:20:45 AM 974 Views
Re: She says... - 22/09/2010 07:12:48 PM 1426 Views
Exactly. - 23/09/2010 01:54:05 AM 1414 Views
The way it reads she is holding open a Gateway, then slams shields on both - 22/09/2010 07:08:17 PM 1400 Views
Continue being irrational then... - 22/09/2010 05:46:19 PM 1503 Views
Re: Continue being irrational then... - 22/09/2010 05:53:05 PM 1369 Views
Re: Continue being irrational then... - 22/09/2010 07:03:02 PM 1382 Views
Nope - 22/09/2010 07:19:30 PM 1280 Views
Re: Nope - 23/09/2010 02:06:35 AM 1438 Views
Toveine! Now THAT is a good catch, fionwe! - 23/09/2010 07:57:05 AM 1546 Views
Sidious pointed it out, actually. But thanks! - 23/09/2010 03:55:29 PM 1422 Views
And you ignore all the evidence in the series that definitively makes it impossible for Graendal to - 23/09/2010 03:57:49 PM 1315 Views
Well... - 23/09/2010 04:31:27 PM 1496 Views
According to Fionwe she isn't using the angreal - 24/09/2010 11:18:30 PM 1629 Views
Re: According to Fionwe she isn't using the angreal - 25/09/2010 09:38:41 AM 1479 Views
Re: Continue being irrational then... - 24/09/2010 03:20:49 AM 1594 Views
Oh come on.. be real - 22/09/2010 05:39:51 PM 1394 Views
see that's an argument that makes more sense to me - 22/09/2010 05:47:17 PM 1475 Views
Re: How did she know there was a shield? - 24/09/2010 04:42:25 AM 1416 Views
You'[re missing the part about the bonds of air as well - 21/09/2010 11:06:04 PM 1410 Views
No. The sequence was shield-gasp-tie off shield-wrap in Air. *NM* - 21/09/2010 11:14:41 PM 1017 Views
We have seen people holding the source caught off guard by a shield *NM* - 22/09/2010 12:10:48 AM 968 Views
Well, exactly! - 22/09/2010 02:01:12 AM 1470 Views
What I think happened - 22/09/2010 09:19:57 AM 1439 Views
It's not the male/female issue. It's a Forsaken vs Forsaken issue... - 22/09/2010 10:06:47 AM 1397 Views
Re: It's not the male/female issue. It's a Forsaken vs Forsaken issue... - 22/09/2010 01:31:52 PM 1474 Views
Fair point. - 22/09/2010 02:07:05 PM 1459 Views
I think it also bears mentioning that ... - 22/09/2010 04:17:17 PM 1472 Views
Graendal knew Aran'gar was distracted - 23/09/2010 07:10:52 AM 1383 Views
About shielding a channeler holding the Source... - 22/09/2010 05:51:34 PM 2490 Views
Re: About shielding a channeler holding the Source... - 22/09/2010 07:04:37 PM 2930 Views
The angreal makes this an unnecessary debate... - 22/09/2010 07:09:20 PM 1383 Views
she never shielded them - 22/09/2010 07:22:29 PM 1389 Views
True...But it made her strong enough to easily overcome both... - 22/09/2010 07:28:12 PM 1340 Views
This I can believe ... it's just problematic since the angreal isn't mentioned - 22/09/2010 07:51:19 PM 1441 Views
Re: This I can believe ... it's just problematic since the angreal isn't mentioned - 22/09/2010 07:54:18 PM 1396 Views
LMAO... nice! - 22/09/2010 08:24:20 PM 1413 Views
I think we need to place Aran'gar lower too.. - 22/09/2010 07:10:29 PM 1476 Views
A lot of unsubstantiated assumptions there... - 22/09/2010 07:13:51 PM 1319 Views
I would agree - 22/09/2010 07:22:50 PM 1468 Views
Re: I would agree - 22/09/2010 07:25:46 PM 1329 Views
Re: A lot of unsubstantiated assumptions there... - 23/09/2010 03:03:26 AM 1401 Views
Mostly agree - 22/09/2010 07:23:53 PM 1387 Views
Re: Mostly agree - 22/09/2010 07:28:42 PM 1349 Views
I am starting to believe that RJ didn't think quite so literally - 22/09/2010 08:07:45 PM 1406 Views
Not sure if you agreed with this before, but I reached this point awhile ago bwahaha - 22/09/2010 08:53:42 PM 1440 Views
I've been on this side for a good long while - 22/09/2010 09:40:43 PM 1535 Views
*NM* - 28/09/2010 11:54:54 PM 928 Views
Well there is one thing to consider about this - 21/09/2010 07:32:44 PM 1651 Views
So there are 6 Forsaken left. - 21/09/2010 10:23:22 PM 1691 Views
For the record - 21/09/2010 10:53:16 PM 1585 Views
She opened two Gateways, IIRC - 21/09/2010 11:58:29 PM 1467 Views
Re: She opened two Gateways, IIRC - 22/09/2010 02:21:47 AM 1498 Views
Wait...so NO ONE has wanted to discuss the Sapphic scene at Graendal's place? - 22/09/2010 03:48:36 AM 1636 Views
yes, totally Lesbian. *NM* - 22/09/2010 03:04:16 PM 975 Views
No, the other L word. "LesbiAHNS?" *NM* - 22/09/2010 04:18:55 PM 1028 Views
Yes, it was totally lesbian. - 22/09/2010 07:09:19 PM 1433 Views
No, not at all. Aran'gar is still a dude at heart. I think. *NM* - 22/09/2010 08:18:55 PM 994 Views
I tend to agree - 23/09/2010 05:42:52 PM 1444 Views
Lady parts + Lady parts = Lesbian sex - 24/09/2010 11:24:36 PM 2060 Views
Yes, but its still a little off - 25/09/2010 09:40:16 AM 1489 Views
Transgender is a little convoluted I suppose - 25/09/2010 04:41:33 PM 1644 Views
Re: Transgender is a little convoluted I suppose - 25/09/2010 05:25:10 PM 1550 Views
What does Graendal think of Rand? - 22/09/2010 02:00:28 PM 1614 Views
She was really surprised and scared. - 22/09/2010 02:11:28 PM 1577 Views
I take it you haven't read the Prologue. - 22/09/2010 02:16:49 PM 1455 Views
Quite a bit... - 22/09/2010 02:31:14 PM 1614 Views
Agreed, she's been worrying about him since the begining - 22/09/2010 03:18:48 PM 1647 Views
Thanks for the answers *NM* - 22/09/2010 05:46:05 PM 936 Views
Second best prologue ever... - 22/09/2010 06:24:44 PM 1840 Views
It's my favorite ever. Only one dark spot tarnished it. - 22/09/2010 07:18:12 PM 1483 Views
Yeah, tEotW is the best... - 22/09/2010 08:22:12 PM 1510 Views
Aran'gar is a tool - 22/09/2010 07:31:36 PM 1651 Views
Yes. s/He was. - 22/09/2010 08:59:16 PM 1483 Views
Shadow invading Kandor and Lan riding trough it. CONNECTION? - 22/09/2010 08:36:05 PM 1648 Views
- 23/09/2010 04:47:11 PM 1554 Views
Nice prologue, but not superb, IMO - 23/09/2010 05:45:41 PM 1574 Views
Re: Nice prologue, but not superb, IMO - 23/09/2010 09:54:33 PM 1543 Views
I believe that Sanderson concocted the entire Graendal/Rand/Balefire part - 23/09/2010 10:24:46 PM 2192 Views
I had a similar thought, but... - 23/09/2010 10:40:58 PM 1499 Views
Probably not Sanderson - 23/09/2010 11:11:54 PM 1532 Views
No way - 24/09/2010 07:14:35 AM 1457 Views
I agree. *NM* - 25/09/2010 09:42:46 AM 994 Views
A few nits - 12/10/2010 10:21:27 AM 1464 Views
Canadian Download site - 29/09/2010 12:05:12 AM 1955 Views

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