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Thanks. A few comments... Shannow Send a noteboard - 21/09/2010 07:27:33 PM
Graendal is holding the TP and using a dove to spy on Rand. She sees him take out the Access Key and quickly figures out what he's planning. She releases the TP, and in a panic, almost fails to embrace Saidar.

She then first weaves a Gateway. After that, Aran'gar, who's watching out of the window, makes a comment about how much of the Power Rand was holding. Graendal realizes that since Aran'gar and Delana wove compulsion on Ramshalan, they'd have to die, or else Rand would think Graendal was alive. So she slams a shield into both of them, and ties them off. As she does this, both women gasp. Delana gasping is no surprise, since she can see Graendal weave a shield. Thus, she may not have been holding the source. That Aran'gar gasped implies to me that she was holding the source, and felt it get cut off (and it makes sense that she was holding the source. Rand had just channeled enormous amounts of the OP). After tying off the shields, Graendal now wraps the two women in Air, and flees through her Gateway. At no time is the angreal mentioned.

Some critical things:

Graendal is confident that Aran'gar cannot break through her shield anytime soon. Since she made it really really fast, I doubt she made a complicated knot. That means that Graendal is enough stronger than Aran'gar that the other woman can't easily brush off her shield.

Graendal is a really fast channeler. That even in a panicked state she could do so many things that required so much power implies to me that she is one of the most skilled among the Foresaken. I think only Lanfear could have done the same.

More than anything else, Graendal is an intelligent channeler, which makes her much more dangerous than her strength alone would have. She's certainly been set up as Moridin's counterpart among the females, with her TP access.

Nynaeve has insane skill with Healing. The way Graendal phrases it, someone with the ability to read her compulsions is extremely rare. It might interest you to know that before she figured out that Rand was going to BF Natrin's Barrow, Graendal made a plan to kill Nynaeve.


If you're equal to someone in strength they will not be able to break through your shield once they're cut off. To break a shield, you have to be much STRONGER than the person shielding you, e.g. Logain and Nynaeve's temporary shield, Amys holding Egewene temporarily despite being much weaker than her, and direct comments to that effect by Rand courtesy of Lews Therin.

The more difficult aspect is to cut off the other channeler in the first place. Here I have only your description to go on, but since Sanderson doesn't bother to mention whether Arangar is holding the Source or not it seems likely that he also did not bother to mention whether Graendal used her angreal or not.

If Graendal could cut off Arangar from the Source while he was channeling, and cut off an Aes Sedai at the same time, then imagine what Cyndane - who Graendal herself said is stronger than her - and Lanfear - who Mesaana said is stronger than Cyndane, or any of the strongest male channelers could have done to Arangar.

It seems unlikely that he would have survived this long, if he was that easy to overcome. This is especially troubling given the comment that he was quite strong in the Power, and also given the deduction that pretty much the only reason this rather stupid and unskilled Forsaken has survived for so long was his raw strength in the Power.

It seems more feasible that Graendal used her angreal in this scene, which also allowed her to shield Cyndane and Moghedien together in PoD.

Regarding Graendal being able to use the True Power. It is not so much her being a female counter to Moridin, as Moridin having "deputized" her in tGS, and thus allowing her to use a bit of the True Power as his sidekick. Remember, she apparently said she was only allowed to use a small amount of it. This ties in with Moridin giving her this "just below the Nae'blis" privilege as a reward for her service.
This message last edited by Shannow on 21/09/2010 at 07:29:54 PM
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Towers of Midnight : Prologue discussion - 21/09/2010 04:38:40 AM 8506 Views
Me Too! Guess who is alive!! - 21/09/2010 04:44:40 AM 2247 Views
A dove, that's weird - 21/09/2010 03:19:10 PM 1992 Views
Re: A dove, that's weird - 21/09/2010 03:26:39 PM 1946 Views
Yes, that's the point - 21/09/2010 11:49:00 PM 1791 Views
It did feel a bit deus ex machina - 22/09/2010 12:03:05 AM 1913 Views
Fain is as creepy as ever - 21/09/2010 05:06:35 AM 2031 Views
You all can go to heck (and find me a link!) *NM* - 21/09/2010 05:10:47 AM 1246 Views
Re: You all can go to heck (and find me a link!) - 21/09/2010 05:14:26 AM 2111 Views
It's D/L on B&N now *NM* - 21/09/2010 05:15:44 AM 1143 Views
Anyone find the audiobook version? *NM* - 21/09/2010 10:20:22 AM 1123 Views
I love the borderlanders - 21/09/2010 05:25:29 AM 1981 Views
Best scene of the prologue *NM* - 21/09/2010 03:28:28 PM 1199 Views
Could somebody post a link to where they got it? I want to go to a site where I can download now *NM* - 21/09/2010 05:39:13 AM 1112 Views
I posted some links here - 21/09/2010 06:04:38 AM 1834 Views
My quick summary - 21/09/2010 06:02:41 AM 2617 Views
Whoa, whoa, whoa. - 23/09/2010 02:59:37 AM 1705 Views
It's good, but... Perrin. Ugh. - 21/09/2010 07:37:43 AM 2026 Views
Awesome! - 21/09/2010 09:00:45 AM 1785 Views
Regarding Graendal - 21/09/2010 10:12:42 AM 2287 Views
Some things... - 21/09/2010 01:18:10 PM 1832 Views
I'm glad. Being right is a good feeling - 21/09/2010 04:12:08 PM 1802 Views
a very weak angreal - 21/09/2010 04:55:15 PM 1794 Views
Even a weak angreal - 21/09/2010 05:47:26 PM 1743 Views
The Angreal Elayne mentions made her 2x as strong as Nynaeve - 21/09/2010 06:04:21 PM 1628 Views
The laughter in Perrin's Dream - 21/09/2010 02:24:14 PM 1864 Views
Probably Slayer - 21/09/2010 04:29:41 PM 1751 Views
Re: Probably Slayer - 21/09/2010 04:39:36 PM 1555 Views
Audio Book - 21/09/2010 06:39:54 PM 1692 Views
Not even Ishamael could shield another male Forsaken and an Aes Sedai at the same time... - 21/09/2010 06:46:42 PM 1896 Views
It's different (I think?) but I'm certainly no expert and I'm sure someone else will reply - 21/09/2010 06:57:18 PM 1809 Views
OK, I haven't read the scene, so I don't know if Arangar was holding saidin at the time or not - 21/09/2010 07:00:23 PM 1614 Views
Re: OK, I haven't read the scene, so I don't know if Arangar was holding saidin at the time or not. - 21/09/2010 07:11:42 PM 1734 Views
Thanks. Was Arangar channeling at the time? - 21/09/2010 07:13:53 PM 1709 Views
I think so, yes. - 21/09/2010 07:15:44 PM 1658 Views
I don't think so actually - 21/09/2010 07:57:42 PM 1732 Views
I don't think Aran'gar was channeling - 21/09/2010 11:00:22 PM 1671 Views
I don't think she even closed her Gateway. It think it was BF'd *NM* - 21/09/2010 11:52:01 PM 970 Views
no she wasn't *NM* - 21/09/2010 10:25:13 PM 1078 Views
nope, no power - 23/09/2010 03:05:30 AM 1570 Views
So here's what happens... - 21/09/2010 07:15:03 PM 2100 Views
Thanks. A few comments... - 21/09/2010 07:27:33 PM 1579 Views
I don't rule out the angreal... - 21/09/2010 07:32:40 PM 1599 Views
Elayne's weakest angreal doubles her strength. Graendal x2 can easily shield Cyndane+Moggy, so... - 21/09/2010 07:35:06 PM 1742 Views
Graendal's seemed much weaker... - 21/09/2010 07:52:20 PM 1596 Views
Elayne also called the x2 turtle angreal "weak"... - 21/09/2010 08:00:01 PM 1625 Views
and we know it wasn't enough to overwhlem Verin's circle - 21/09/2010 08:02:13 PM 1455 Views
I disasgree. There is no evidence that Aran'gar was holding saidin at the time - 21/09/2010 07:42:23 PM 1560 Views
Then why did she gasp at the shield? She couldn't have known what Graendal was weaving. - 21/09/2010 07:52:49 PM 1599 Views
because she was surprised that Graendal would put a shield on her in the first place - 21/09/2010 07:58:45 PM 1620 Views
How did she know there was a shield? - 21/09/2010 09:16:59 PM 1567 Views
Fact: Graendal cannot shield a male Forsaken and an Aes Sedai if they are holding the Source... - 21/09/2010 09:28:17 PM 1547 Views
Who said "they"? - 21/09/2010 09:55:28 PM 1543 Views
I really don't think you have to be holding the source to know you've been shielded - 21/09/2010 10:29:20 PM 1502 Views
Provide evidence? - 21/09/2010 10:36:36 PM 1547 Views
Thanks, but like I said, they were both wrapped in air. That's enough for Aran'gar to wonder - 21/09/2010 10:44:17 PM 1470 Views
They gasped before Graendal wove Air... - 21/09/2010 11:13:48 PM 1552 Views
Alright, you win *NM* - 22/09/2010 02:51:26 AM 1019 Views
*NM* - 22/09/2010 03:06:22 AM 875 Views
Siuan was distracted by a number of other things going on, not to mention how suspect - 22/09/2010 02:43:36 PM 1462 Views
And Aran'gar was fully focussed on Graendal? - 22/09/2010 03:02:16 PM 1689 Views
More so than Siuan was on Elaida when they were shielded. - 22/09/2010 03:33:15 PM 2476 Views
So? - 22/09/2010 03:48:11 PM 1388 Views
It doesn't matter. There are more Shieldings that go unnoticed when not holding the Source - 22/09/2010 03:55:48 PM 1471 Views
Nice catches! - 22/09/2010 04:06:52 PM 1596 Views
we don't know that - 22/09/2010 02:35:50 PM 1533 Views
Huh? - 22/09/2010 03:03:52 PM 1474 Views
Give over, Darius... there's plenty of evidence... - 22/09/2010 03:45:11 PM 1518 Views
Give over what? There is no hard evidence that Aran'gar wouldn't notice a shield put on her - 22/09/2010 05:00:11 PM 1419 Views
What rot... (also, Egwene and Rand) - 22/09/2010 05:21:08 PM 1535 Views
take a pill Fionwe ... no need to go batshit on me for having an opinion. - 22/09/2010 05:38:21 PM 1509 Views
Re: take a pill Fionwe ... no need to go batshit on me for having an opinion. - 22/09/2010 05:45:05 PM 1646 Views
if it was JUST one shield ... but she's shielding an AS and weaving a Gateway too! - 22/09/2010 05:48:52 PM 3549 Views
Well... - 22/09/2010 07:00:26 PM 1572 Views
She says... - 22/09/2010 07:04:32 PM 1572 Views
no one is arguing that - 22/09/2010 07:09:17 PM 1518 Views
Er... - 22/09/2010 07:19:09 PM 1471 Views
I'm contending that it's possible Aran'gar snesed she'd been shielded - 22/09/2010 07:20:48 PM 2304 Views
Re: I'm contending that it's possible Aran'gar snesed she'd been shielded - 22/09/2010 07:26:52 PM 2271 Views
Again, I just find that option completely unlikely since Graendals angreal isn't all that strong - 22/09/2010 07:39:02 PM 1537 Views
You've made a long list of channelers "incompetant" and "untrained". Enough. - 23/09/2010 01:53:25 AM 1606 Views
Re: You've made a long list of channelers "incompetant" and "untrained". Enough. - 23/09/2010 03:42:31 PM 1512 Views
- 23/09/2010 03:54:02 PM 1511 Views
Re: . The evidence is that no channeled is that strong! - 23/09/2010 04:04:02 PM 1639 Views
Really? - 23/09/2010 06:11:00 PM 1594 Views
Re: Really? - 23/09/2010 09:56:09 PM 1463 Views
That's my point *NM* - 24/09/2010 12:20:45 AM 1011 Views
Dear God! The sheer amount of replies here just blew my mind, and my window (jk). *NM* - 24/09/2010 07:28:14 PM 1038 Views
Y o u' r e h u r t i n g m y s c r o l l b a r *NM* - 24/09/2010 11:30:27 PM 1016 Views
Re: She says... - 22/09/2010 07:12:48 PM 1521 Views
Exactly. - 23/09/2010 01:54:05 AM 1499 Views
The way it reads she is holding open a Gateway, then slams shields on both - 22/09/2010 07:08:17 PM 1481 Views
Continue being irrational then... - 22/09/2010 05:46:19 PM 1595 Views
Re: Continue being irrational then... - 22/09/2010 05:53:05 PM 1465 Views
Re: Continue being irrational then... - 22/09/2010 07:03:02 PM 1467 Views
Nope - 22/09/2010 07:19:30 PM 1364 Views
Re: Nope - 23/09/2010 02:06:35 AM 1520 Views
Toveine! Now THAT is a good catch, fionwe! - 23/09/2010 07:57:05 AM 1643 Views
Sidious pointed it out, actually. But thanks! - 23/09/2010 03:55:29 PM 1522 Views
And you ignore all the evidence in the series that definitively makes it impossible for Graendal to - 23/09/2010 03:57:49 PM 1403 Views
Well... - 23/09/2010 04:31:27 PM 1583 Views
According to Fionwe she isn't using the angreal - 24/09/2010 11:18:30 PM 1725 Views
Re: According to Fionwe she isn't using the angreal - 25/09/2010 09:38:41 AM 1571 Views
Re: Continue being irrational then... - 24/09/2010 03:20:49 AM 1688 Views
Oh come on.. be real - 22/09/2010 05:39:51 PM 1481 Views
see that's an argument that makes more sense to me - 22/09/2010 05:47:17 PM 1561 Views
Re: How did she know there was a shield? - 24/09/2010 04:42:25 AM 1508 Views
You'[re missing the part about the bonds of air as well - 21/09/2010 11:06:04 PM 1492 Views
No. The sequence was shield-gasp-tie off shield-wrap in Air. *NM* - 21/09/2010 11:14:41 PM 1056 Views
We have seen people holding the source caught off guard by a shield *NM* - 22/09/2010 12:10:48 AM 1010 Views
Well, exactly! - 22/09/2010 02:01:12 AM 1557 Views
What I think happened - 22/09/2010 09:19:57 AM 1508 Views
It's not the male/female issue. It's a Forsaken vs Forsaken issue... - 22/09/2010 10:06:47 AM 1482 Views
Re: It's not the male/female issue. It's a Forsaken vs Forsaken issue... - 22/09/2010 01:31:52 PM 1566 Views
Fair point. - 22/09/2010 02:07:05 PM 1539 Views
I think it also bears mentioning that ... - 22/09/2010 04:17:17 PM 1561 Views
Graendal knew Aran'gar was distracted - 23/09/2010 07:10:52 AM 1481 Views
About shielding a channeler holding the Source... - 22/09/2010 05:51:34 PM 2592 Views
Re: About shielding a channeler holding the Source... - 22/09/2010 07:04:37 PM 3022 Views
The angreal makes this an unnecessary debate... - 22/09/2010 07:09:20 PM 1473 Views
she never shielded them - 22/09/2010 07:22:29 PM 1481 Views
True...But it made her strong enough to easily overcome both... - 22/09/2010 07:28:12 PM 1431 Views
This I can believe ... it's just problematic since the angreal isn't mentioned - 22/09/2010 07:51:19 PM 1537 Views
Re: This I can believe ... it's just problematic since the angreal isn't mentioned - 22/09/2010 07:54:18 PM 1487 Views
LMAO... nice! - 22/09/2010 08:24:20 PM 1503 Views
I think we need to place Aran'gar lower too.. - 22/09/2010 07:10:29 PM 1576 Views
A lot of unsubstantiated assumptions there... - 22/09/2010 07:13:51 PM 1410 Views
I would agree - 22/09/2010 07:22:50 PM 1561 Views
Re: I would agree - 22/09/2010 07:25:46 PM 1413 Views
Re: A lot of unsubstantiated assumptions there... - 23/09/2010 03:03:26 AM 1488 Views
Mostly agree - 22/09/2010 07:23:53 PM 1482 Views
Re: Mostly agree - 22/09/2010 07:28:42 PM 1431 Views
I am starting to believe that RJ didn't think quite so literally - 22/09/2010 08:07:45 PM 1495 Views
Not sure if you agreed with this before, but I reached this point awhile ago bwahaha - 22/09/2010 08:53:42 PM 1527 Views
I've been on this side for a good long while - 22/09/2010 09:40:43 PM 1625 Views
*NM* - 28/09/2010 11:54:54 PM 974 Views
Well there is one thing to consider about this - 21/09/2010 07:32:44 PM 1743 Views
So there are 6 Forsaken left. - 21/09/2010 10:23:22 PM 1783 Views
For the record - 21/09/2010 10:53:16 PM 1669 Views
She opened two Gateways, IIRC - 21/09/2010 11:58:29 PM 1555 Views
Re: She opened two Gateways, IIRC - 22/09/2010 02:21:47 AM 1602 Views
Wait...so NO ONE has wanted to discuss the Sapphic scene at Graendal's place? - 22/09/2010 03:48:36 AM 1735 Views
yes, totally Lesbian. *NM* - 22/09/2010 03:04:16 PM 1019 Views
No, the other L word. "LesbiAHNS?" *NM* - 22/09/2010 04:18:55 PM 1076 Views
Yes, it was totally lesbian. - 22/09/2010 07:09:19 PM 1504 Views
No, not at all. Aran'gar is still a dude at heart. I think. *NM* - 22/09/2010 08:18:55 PM 1032 Views
I tend to agree - 23/09/2010 05:42:52 PM 1526 Views
Lady parts + Lady parts = Lesbian sex - 24/09/2010 11:24:36 PM 2146 Views
Yes, but its still a little off - 25/09/2010 09:40:16 AM 1577 Views
Transgender is a little convoluted I suppose - 25/09/2010 04:41:33 PM 1732 Views
Re: Transgender is a little convoluted I suppose - 25/09/2010 05:25:10 PM 1650 Views
What does Graendal think of Rand? - 22/09/2010 02:00:28 PM 1702 Views
She was really surprised and scared. - 22/09/2010 02:11:28 PM 1670 Views
I take it you haven't read the Prologue. - 22/09/2010 02:16:49 PM 1544 Views
Quite a bit... - 22/09/2010 02:31:14 PM 1708 Views
Agreed, she's been worrying about him since the begining - 22/09/2010 03:18:48 PM 1745 Views
Thanks for the answers *NM* - 22/09/2010 05:46:05 PM 984 Views
Second best prologue ever... - 22/09/2010 06:24:44 PM 1941 Views
It's my favorite ever. Only one dark spot tarnished it. - 22/09/2010 07:18:12 PM 1577 Views
Yeah, tEotW is the best... - 22/09/2010 08:22:12 PM 1599 Views
Aran'gar is a tool - 22/09/2010 07:31:36 PM 1739 Views
Yes. s/He was. - 22/09/2010 08:59:16 PM 1576 Views
Shadow invading Kandor and Lan riding trough it. CONNECTION? - 22/09/2010 08:36:05 PM 1747 Views
- 23/09/2010 04:47:11 PM 1652 Views
Nice prologue, but not superb, IMO - 23/09/2010 05:45:41 PM 1671 Views
Re: Nice prologue, but not superb, IMO - 23/09/2010 09:54:33 PM 1623 Views
I believe that Sanderson concocted the entire Graendal/Rand/Balefire part - 23/09/2010 10:24:46 PM 2301 Views
I had a similar thought, but... - 23/09/2010 10:40:58 PM 1583 Views
Probably not Sanderson - 23/09/2010 11:11:54 PM 1623 Views
No way - 24/09/2010 07:14:35 AM 1534 Views
I agree. *NM* - 25/09/2010 09:42:46 AM 1039 Views
A few nits - 12/10/2010 10:21:27 AM 1558 Views
Canadian Download site - 29/09/2010 12:05:12 AM 2057 Views

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