So what? Personally, I'm fully behind Elayne fighting for the throne of Andor. That even makes the most sense for the Last Battle. But the reason it is correct is not because Elayne has the birthright. I don't give a damn about her brithright, and her birthright has absolutely no impact on how good or bad her actions are.

Here's the thing. The same is the case with Rand as Dragon Reborn. While it is true that Prophesy says he's mankind's savior, nothing in Prophesy directly contradicts Siuan's plan for guiding him through them. Elaida's plan was in direct contravention to many prophesies, but not Siuan's. Yet, you and me both know Siuan was wrong.

You seem to think she (Siuan) was wrong because Rand is the prophesied hero. I think that the presence or absence of prophesy has nothing to do with it. Like Rand, Egwene was handed a job she did not want, and like him, was expected to be a puppet. And like Rand, I think she was justified, even right for embracing her responsibility and doing all she could to fulfill her job. Egwene's job, as she saw it (and as her friends saw it) was to unite the Tower for the Last Battle, take power away from a woman known to have anti-Rand sympathies, bring the Tower closer to Rand. As I'll show below, she's succeeded, except for the last part.

As for the Salidar Six's intention that she not rule, the same was true of Elaida as well. She too was meant to be a puppet. You can't seriously be telling me that just because people intend to manipulate the person who's taking office, that person is beholden to let them dictate the terms!


What should Egwene have been doing instead? And by pressing her claim, she has limited the ways in which Elaida can interfere with Rand, which she expressly stated to her closest adviser as the real reason why she keeps the Rebellion alive.

Of course she had reason to judge Elaida! First off, the Amyrlin she knows she can trust to be not Black Ajah, who sent her chasing after them to help the Dragon Reborn, is deposed by a secret coup. That's reason enough to be suspicious of Elaida.

Further, she was there when Rand told Moiraine that Elaida tried to have him arrested. She has further witnessed Elaida's suspiciously heavy interest in Rand, and probably had Elayne tell her about the woman as well. Further, she had the overly sweet letter from Alviarin that came at the same time as Elaida's pompous one to Rand, which from a distance looks like the Amyrlin and her Keeper plotting to hoodwink Rand.

There is also Halima's lies about Elaida being Black. Egwene never embraced that view fully, but that doesn't mean the suspicion wasn't there.


And when has Egwene endorsed Siuan's plan for Rand (which was markedly different from Elaida's anyway)? Accusing Egwene for her Siuan's policy is like accusing Rand for Moiraine's!

All we know is that whatever Egwene knew or suspected of Elaida, she assessed that Elaida may try to kidnap Rand and send an expedition against the Black Tower. She felt both would be insane moves, and guess what? Elaida did do exactly those things Egwene was worried she would do if she had the whole Tower under her control! If anything, that says that Egwene had a conservative view of how stupid Elaida could be.


She did? And yet I have a very strong memory of her trying to use her Dream of the Seanchan attacking the Tower but being thwarted by the fact that the idiotic Aes Sedai would not believe her.

And if your issue with her is that she asked us to believe all will be well when the Tower is under her rule, the why not wait till that has happened and she has had time to deal with how the Tower handles the Seanchan and the Shadow before judging her for it? Because even without the Tower whole, she blunted the Seanchan attack, and struck a serious blow against the Shadow by executing 70 Blacks and essentially cleansing the Tower of all Shadow influence. Sure, Verin helped her, but Egwene never claimed that she would single-handedly defeat the Shadow. Just that she would use the resources of the Tower against it well, which is just what she did. You argue that any one else would have done the same, but that is patently not true. A substantial portion of the Tower would have sat on that data, or mishandled the whole situation. The very fact that most of them are surprised and afraid of Egwene after how she deals with the Black says that they wouldn't have acted the same way.

From the beginning, Egwene has expressed dissatisfaction at the way the Tower does things. She disagreed with the whole Novice age and rejection policy, and corrected it the moment she could. She has expressed frustration with the stupid strength in the power based deference system as well. And she certainly dealt with the Black Ajah, the Seanchan and the Ajah rivalries in the Tower in a way few other sisters would have. In many substantial ways, she has delivered on her "promise", though those were mostly made to the reader.

If, further on, she should fail spectacularly in dealing with the Shadow, or botch up Tower relations with Rand or the Black Tower, you'll be justified to blame her. Then, her quest for power would indeed be shown to be driven by personal greed rather than any clear game plan and good intentions. But till then, your criticism of her campaign against Elaida is premature. So far, she has done exactly what she claimed she would do.


And what of Egwene's recruitment of older novices, her plan to use every single channeler, instead of throwing away the weaker ones? That cost her substantial political capital. Aren't they going to prove even more beneficial than green soldiers in the Last Battle? The way she worked with them against the Seanchan has already set a great precedent. While the Aes Sedai might be content to ignore it, Egwene is likely to want them trained in battle for the LB.


Its a matter of interpretation Cannoli. You seem determined to see that Egwene was "justifying" a power grab. But all evidence in the text shows that she genuinely believed that Elaida would lead the Tower to disaster, and her assessment of Elaida's possible mistakes was spot on. It isn't like Egwene invented the fiction of Elaida's incompetence so that the Salidar Hall would choose her. While her opinion of Elaida was certainly in part driven by Siuan's, she also probably had Elayne's view to go by (and Elayne, who has had much more knowledge of Elaida's personality, never even thought about joining her side, and was derisive of Tarna's efforts to win her over. Don't you think this played any part in how Egwene viewed Elaida?).

And in what way was Egwene in a weaker position. She talked of stepping down for Elaida when she had an army of 50,000 soldiers under Gareth Bryne; a bunch of useful weaves like Traveling, inverting, etc.; and the Law of War stating she could fight Elaida any way she wanted. She was in a militarily superior position to Elaida in a way Elayne never was against Arymilla, let alone Ellorien and that lot. She had absolutely no need to think of surrendering, especially when plans to seal the harbor were also proceeding quite well at that point. Yet she did, because she realized even then that there were more pressing issues to be dealt with. When she makes the choice in tGS to deal with the Tower first, she was merely reaffirming what she has been saying since the very beginning, which is that a whole Tower under sensible leadership will be a great advantage to the Light, so uniting it is the part she chooses to play.


And where has Egwene said she's going to punish Rand, or even thought about it? Don't give me Siuan's quote about having to "deal" with him. Egwene is as unlikely to take stupid advice from Siuan as Elayne will from Dyelin. She said she didn't want to even think about Rand knowing compulsion. Later, she thinks that it was wrong of Rand to have Aes Sedai sworn to him (as I'm sure Elayne would if any of her nobles swear fealty to Rand directly). I'm at a loss to understand where all this talk of punishment comes from.

She may well be pissed with him over the Black Tower issue (and again, Elayne too was pissed with him over his talk of "giving" the throne to her), but I fail to see why you'd assume she means to punish him. In her discussion with Leanne in aCoS, she implies that she cannot approach Rand as an Aes Sedai. I haven't really seen her say or do anything to contradict that. As plain old Egwene al'Vere, old flame and chum from the Two Rivers, she can yell at him for being a dolt, but she can't punish him, and I fail to see where she said she would.


Smaller, actually. With its engorged population in CoT, Elayne says Caemlyn now is as populated as Tar Valon.


But Egwene isn't out to "protect" Aes Sedai. It isn't about how uncomfortable things will be for them, its about how together and under a sensible ruler, they can actually do some good for the Light in the Last Battle. Egwene has shown no love for the Aes Sedai status quo, and its maintenance was never her goal. The women who raised her might have had that in mind. She herself never did.

Further, as an asset to the Light, Tar Valon has the gold to employ at least a 100,000 soldiers. Probably many more can be hired. Plus, there are roughly two thousand channelers and a huge cache of angreal and sa'angreal. As such, it can form a very solid part of the Light's arsenal, and no doubt will.


Not that I believe this, but this may just as well say that Egwene is reasoned and introspective whereas Elayne is so hung up over her rights she can't even examine her actions!

Egwene said she was wrong to exacerbate tensions in the Tower. She never said the Rebellion was wrong, though that has been your position!

And again, please tell me what in the text makes it certain that she will side with the Aes Sedai over Rand. Not wanting them forced to swear to him is in no way an indication of her supporting whatever ridiculous demands they may make of him. She has made it clear that her goal with the Tower is to make it not oppose Rand and to make it a body of people who'll seriously threaten the Shadow. That includes taking care of way more than just Andor. As such, her end goal is no less worthy than Elayne's.


Where? Saying the Daughter Heir of Andor can court the Dragon Reborn says nothing about the relative position of the Queen to him. If she felt the queen was an inferior to the DR, she should have no problem with Rand "giving" her the throne.


The Tow Rivers doesn't respect Amyrlins, but falls over itself respecting Alanna and Verin? Are we reading the same series?

And her issue with Mat was not that he didn't enter her room and immediately bow down to her. Her issue is that he barged in, yanked her stole of office from around her neck and told her she was a bloody fool. I don't remember Egwene tearing Callandor out of Rand's hand and calling him an idiot for believing he is the Dragon Reborn.


Well, sorry, but no. They're highly alike.