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Yes, those are completely different scenarios. Cannoli Send a noteboard - 14/09/2010 05:36:30 AM
When you said Egwene's aim to unite the Tower would earn more respect from you if there were some prophesy that said that was her job.

Further, you have time and again blamed Egwene for spending time on the Tower with TG approaching. Why not similarly reproach Elayne for fighting a civil war in Andor? Unless your point is that a monarch has the right to claim her birthright, even if the LB is coming.


They are not alike at all, and do not become so by your artificially stretching categories to include both. As a matter of fact, though, your last sentence has a point in that Elayne does have a birthright to Andor which Egwene does not. If you want to assert her democratic mandate, that was not intended that she actually rule. Elayne has been training for her role for 18 years. Egwene's situation in the Tower would be comparable to an immigrant of less than two years residence (and no carry-over political or administrative experience) asserting a claim to a throne. The only issue with that would be the coming of the Last Battle, but then there are not better things Elayne could be doing instead, and pressing her claim is not getting in the way of anything. Dyelin would be beholden to a faction that shares her expressed viewpoint of Andoran rights taking precedence over Rand's needs, Arymilla & Elenia were personally known to both Rand and Elayne and assessed by both and found wanting, in a way Egwene had no basis for judging about Elaida. All we KNOW about Elaida, if we dismiss the speculation of her personal enemies and initiates who have been in the Tower less than five years combined, is that her policy regarding Rand was identical to that of Egwene's closest counselor.

- In the first place, Elayne's plans had something beyond her struggle in mind. As part of her agenda, she also worked on mobilizing her country citing the need to fight the twin menaces of the Seanchan and Shadow. I have never seriously denied for a second that Egwene intends to fight the Seanchan or the Shadow, but has done nothing to either end, asking us instead to take for granted that once the Tower is in her hands, all will be well. Some of Elayne's recruiting efforts were even things she claimed would not help her struggle (i.e. because the men were too green to be of use in the immediate fight) but would be needed down the line in the struggles ahead.

- Egwene kept justifing her naked power-grab by claiming she'd back down if not for some unproven flaw in her opposition. When Elayne has the whip hand, she actually DOES offer to step down in the name of unity, despite controlling a plurality of votes. Egwene contemplates such things when she is actually in a position of weakness, and is merely an obstruction to unity, rather than a legitimate contender, but rejects them for unproven and untested hypotheses (such as the view that Elaida's peacetime rule will be as stringent as her acts against a group in active and open rebellious warfare; or that her personal development as a leader is more important than giving way to the superior experience of the Hall).

- Elayne has never expressed an intention to punish Rand for his transgressions against Andoran rights, sovereignty or interests. Egwene has, plainly taking a position analoguous to that of Dyelin, Ellorien & their ilk that Andoran perquisites must be honored first before they could consent to following or helping Rand. What makes this worse is that Rand's actions have had the unintended consequence of complicating and obstructing Elayne's campaign, and aiding and abetting Egwene's. Andor has doen nothing to get in the way of Rand or interfere, and not one noble or other authority figure in Andor has ever expressed any intention to obstruct or interfere with him or even refrain from allying to him so long as he affords them the same courtesy. The Aes Sedai can make no such claim, and even if the blame for whatever hypothetical dangers are engulfing the sisters sent to the Black Tower can be fairly laid at Rand's door, the accounts between them are still heavily canted towards Rand. But for the grave crime of defending himself, he is to be punished.

- Andor is a nation, including a city as large or larger than Tar Valon, and possibly the largest group of people under a single ruler outside the Seanchan Empire and Rand's conquests. Elayne's attention to Andor affects the fate of hundrds of thousands, even millions of people (if they can muster 200,000 soldiers, their population has to be at least 4 million; a nation can rarely support an army greater than 5% of its population), and they are the kind of people who need protection. Egwene's actions affect, at worst, a city of 100,000 (IIRC Jordan's numbers on the population) and a club of women who are among the wealthiest and most powerful in the world. In other words, if all goes to pot, the people with the greatest ability to survive and take care of themselves are the ones who will be most discomfitted by Egwene's failure.

- Elayne, unlike Egwene, did not come out in the end and AGREE WITH ME that the whole movement that put her in power was wrong-headed, divisive and unworthy! Props to Egwene for finally realizing her error, and for putting the Aes Sedai in their place, but it is this error and these obnoxious, recalcitrant and arrogant people she has been exerting all her efforts and attention on. It is for their sake she intends to take positions in opposition to Rand, despite the absolute necessity of him to win the Last Battle. Elayne, meanwhile, was working for the betterment of a not-insignificant portion of what Rand is going to face the Dark One to preserve.

- Elayne has acknowledged the social inferiority of a queen to the Dragon Reborn. Egwene, despite her utter refusal to afford the man who will save the world of which she is a part any respect or deference, expects some acknowledgement of her status from Two Rivers people, despite that same position being meaningless to the Two Rivers. If you don't have to kneel to a friend from the same village, why do you owe her any respect just because she takes a position whose previous occupant they ALSO refused to bow to? They don't respect Amyrlin Seats, they don't have to show respect if they come from the same village (according to Egwene's own behavior), yet Egwene is disgruntled by Mat's refusal to recognize her as Amyrlin Seat in his heart, not being satisfied with the greatest public display of honor she ever received before her arrival in Tar Valon!

The two situations are not at all alike, and treating them differently is neither hypocrisy nor discrimination nor preferential analysis of a character.
Cannoli
“Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions.” GK Chesteron
Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!
Deus Vult!
*MySmiley*
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Rand vs Egwene... one-line scenarios - 05/09/2010 05:21:08 PM 2735 Views
loled at every one *NM* - 05/09/2010 05:35:03 PM 652 Views
Good for some sunday night relief I hope *NM* - 05/09/2010 09:51:10 PM 593 Views
Hmm... I don't think you want to read the rebuttal to that *NM* - 05/09/2010 06:07:16 PM 811 Views
True - 05/09/2010 09:52:09 PM 1111 Views
But you've already read my post *NM* - 05/09/2010 11:53:58 PM 674 Views
I only used one eye *NM* - 06/09/2010 11:52:19 AM 565 Views
Still counts *NM* - 06/09/2010 03:06:44 PM 594 Views
*NM* - 06/09/2010 01:02:44 AM 556 Views
Corrected for the sake of accuracy . - 05/09/2010 06:51:58 PM 1186 Views
Nonsense... - 05/09/2010 09:56:41 PM 990 Views
Gotta love Dark Templar - 05/09/2010 10:14:00 PM 1086 Views
That's partly why I didn't post a reply poking at her. *NM* - 05/09/2010 11:56:15 PM 671 Views
Poking whom? - 06/09/2010 01:20:32 AM 1031 Views
Egwene. I thought that was implied *NM* - 06/09/2010 04:03:25 AM 588 Views
Nice. *NM* - 06/09/2010 02:37:38 PM 586 Views
nice *NM* - 05/09/2010 08:12:31 PM 536 Views
*drumroll* *NM* - 05/09/2010 09:56:54 PM 622 Views
That whole post is stupid, you can't compare Rand's ordeal to Egwene's. - 05/09/2010 10:14:43 PM 1147 Views
its a joke, shhhh *NM* - 05/09/2010 10:36:28 PM 779 Views
No, it's clever and tongue-in-cheek. *NM* - 05/09/2010 11:04:26 PM 604 Views
OMG - 06/09/2010 11:48:48 AM 1087 Views
I know, appalling, right? - 09/09/2010 07:27:40 AM 993 Views
Re: I know, appalling, right? - 09/09/2010 07:41:02 AM 1026 Views
He doesn't think so, why should we? - 09/09/2010 03:40:25 PM 919 Views
Because he can't lose - 09/09/2010 05:21:50 PM 949 Views
I think Rand has far better odds of dying than Egwene. - 09/09/2010 05:56:07 PM 974 Views
very nicely done - 05/09/2010 11:06:24 PM 927 Views
Re: very nicely done - 06/09/2010 04:28:29 AM 979 Views
- 06/09/2010 11:49:20 AM 903 Views
Revised for accurracy, improved characterization and humor - 06/09/2010 12:57:35 AM 1361 Views
the humor here is that you think you understand accurracy, improvement, characterization or humor! *NM* - 06/09/2010 01:56:57 AM 554 Views
I'm having to settle for being right. Better than being president... *NM* - 06/09/2010 03:47:52 AM 649 Views
I'm trying to resist the urge to make a Bush joke. *NM* - 06/09/2010 08:21:15 AM 589 Views
Why resist ... he WAS a joke! *NM* - 06/09/2010 04:31:06 PM 590 Views
BWAHAHAHAHA ... thanks to our last president you are right! *NM* - 06/09/2010 04:30:00 PM 580 Views
Re: Revised for accurracy, improved characterization and humor - 06/09/2010 11:51:12 AM 1109 Views
seriously. - 06/09/2010 05:12:08 PM 1062 Views
If a few score Yellows can't handle the disease issue, what point to the Aes Sedai at all? - 06/09/2010 10:17:44 PM 1171 Views
Re: If a few score Yellows can't handle the disease issue, what point to the Aes Sedai at all? - 08/09/2010 08:30:35 AM 933 Views
Like Egwene understands the health implications! It's all about the aesthetics for her. - 09/09/2010 12:35:57 AM 1039 Views
Well, she was an apprentice wisdom with Nynaeve for a while - 09/09/2010 05:33:25 AM 972 Views
An idiot would understand the implications - 09/09/2010 07:38:57 AM 952 Views
and it's not just Egwene! - 11/09/2010 02:11:16 PM 869 Views
Cannoli's just got huge blinders... - 11/09/2010 04:59:50 PM 1080 Views
You forgot one very important point - 11/09/2010 06:44:32 PM 1020 Views
As to that... - 11/09/2010 08:47:26 PM 805 Views
after dealing with his bushwa waaay longer than you, I'm content to ignore him *NM* - 11/09/2010 11:29:27 PM 582 Views
Remember the old times? - 12/09/2010 03:35:43 AM 985 Views
I think we could use - 12/09/2010 10:40:47 AM 945 Views
ugh ... please don't ask for that! - 12/09/2010 02:25:32 PM 916 Views
Huh. Now that I think of it... - 14/09/2010 06:51:59 AM 883 Views
all of you are most correct! - 11/09/2010 07:53:44 PM 932 Views
When exactly have I ever given someone else a pass for "necessary actions" I blamed Egwene for? - 14/09/2010 02:08:29 AM 1138 Views
A few days back... - 14/09/2010 04:03:41 AM 1022 Views
Yes, those are completely different scenarios. - 14/09/2010 05:36:30 AM 1448 Views
Misinterpretations... - 14/09/2010 07:26:11 AM 888 Views
How can you claim Verin merely "helped" Egwene? - 15/09/2010 06:35:47 AM 1323 Views
Re: Cannoli's just got huge blinders... - 17/09/2010 06:42:39 AM 1188 Views
Read his replies in this thread... - 17/09/2010 06:48:20 AM 1016 Views
So your defense of Egwene is to refute her accusation against her rival? - 14/09/2010 02:12:22 AM 1006 Views
Double Post. See below. *NM* - 14/09/2010 04:03:55 AM 580 Views
How was Egwene to know Elaida made a half-hearted attempt? - 14/09/2010 04:06:15 AM 906 Views
Re: How was Egwene to know Elaida made a half-hearted attempt? - 14/09/2010 06:58:17 AM 957 Views
I give up. - 14/09/2010 07:44:57 AM 1060 Views
lol *NM* - 06/09/2010 02:46:23 PM 522 Views
I laughed very hard at this part: - 09/09/2010 07:48:34 PM 914 Views
Somehow I think of the lyrics from "Defying Gravity", which aren't quite one line - 07/09/2010 04:07:09 PM 989 Views
Look at it these ways - 08/09/2010 02:47:46 AM 1056 Views
People are taking this way too seriously. - 08/09/2010 06:33:28 AM 1003 Views
no argument there! *NM* - 09/09/2010 05:08:25 AM 312 Views
Re: Look at it these ways - 09/09/2010 07:26:37 AM 900 Views
It really comes down to the direction RJ went with his personality - 09/09/2010 03:08:36 PM 841 Views
This post was funny. Your responders are largely idiots who need a sense of humor. *NM* - 08/09/2010 03:56:07 AM 695 Views
I really hate self-fulfilling prophecy. *NM* - 08/09/2010 06:34:45 AM 661 Views
Hee. <3 *NM* - 09/09/2010 10:14:55 PM 584 Views
Re: Rand vs Egwene... one-line scenarios - 10/09/2010 06:28:50 AM 801 Views

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