Wheel of Time Messageboard: I don't see how that would prevent them from being promoted. by Cannoli

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I don't see how that would prevent them from being promoted. Cannoli Send a noteboard - 09/09/2010 01:09:14 AM

IIRC, novices and accepted generally spend about a decade in each rank, twenty years in total. We see that women who climb the ranks faster achieve the shawl before they've reached their full potential.

It occurred to me that the average length of time a girl spends as a novice and as an Accepted could be a result of the Aes Sedai's hierarchy system. If girls were promoted to Accepted or the Shawl before they reached their full strength, it would mean that they would spend the next few years slowly gaining in rank and influence, and that the sisters they interacted with would have to keep in mind both their potential and their actual strength in the Power.

I don't see the reasoning here. Why would the Aes Sedai want to avoid promoting them before they gained their full strength? How does a sister starting at a lower place in the hierarchy than she will eventually end up negatively affect the sisters that they would want to make her take her place in what would be her permanent place in the hierarchy? I would think, especially since you seem to be suggesting it is the higher-strength girls who motivate this supposed policy, they would actually PREFER them to start out lower. At least when they are lower in strength it is easier to subordinate their noob-natures and make them submit. If they are eventually going to be near the top of the hierarchy, why would you want to hold them back so they can start out as brand-new sisters, who outrank all but the officials in the Tower, and can talk smack to almost any sister in the Tower?

Rather, I would think that when they get a girl who is destined to be one of the highest-ranking sisters in the hierarchy, they would promote her when she was still weak enough to be given orders and have to accept guidance from women who are still her betters, even if they soon will not be.

I doubt it was ever a public decision, or even an active one. Rather, I think the time girls spend in gaining the shawl is a function of their training and the mindset of the Aes Sedai in power at the time.

I would assume that during the Trolloc Wars, when they trained girls hard and fast, more girls were forced to reach their full potential more quickly, and were promoted more quickly as well.

Really? Because the one source I know about their behavior at the time regarding initiates was that they kept a woman who was fully qualified to be a sister in the kitchens for a year or two as punishment for a minor rules violation. For partaking of a privilege exclusively reserved to sisters one day early, she was withheld from useful work during a time of the greatest crisis in 1,000 years! Unless the BWB or RJ said something to the effect that they hastened girls through the system in those days, Birgitte's memory of Barashelle suggests it was business as usual for the Tower.

During Hawkwing's siege, we would probably see a similar effect, because Aes Sedai outside the tower were dying, and those inside the tower had nothing else to do but train younger girls, so they probably progressed more quickly than girls in times of peace.

The Aes Sedai in power during those times wouldn't be consciously thinking about where the upcoming girls would fit into the hierarchy, but they would have that ranking system in the back of their minds when judging if a girl was ready to be promoted.

And as I understand you, you are claiming their thought process was: "Better not promote her now when she will be the 138th highest sister in the Tower. We should rather wait until she has reached her full strength which will put her somewhere in the top 20." I just don't see that rationale.

Cannoli
“Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions.” GK Chesteron
Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!
Deus Vult!
*MySmiley*

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Ages for Novices and Accepted Phelix - 08/09/2010 10:20:29 AM 1243 Views

Re: Ages for Novices and Accepted Watcher - 08/09/2010 01:01:36 PM 942 Views

I don't see how that would prevent them from being promoted. Cannoli - 09/09/2010 01:09:14 AM 934 Views

It's not a rational thing, to my way of thinking. Phelix - 09/09/2010 01:24:23 AM 823 Views

You might be right about the strength, hierarchy & advancement, but for other reasons, IMO... Cannoli - 09/09/2010 07:20:53 AM 818 Views

You're right... DomA - 09/09/2010 11:40:40 PM 803 Views

That's a good point about training time varying by destined Ajah too. Cannoli - 10/09/2010 03:52:51 AM 745 Views

Re: You're right... orius - 10/09/2010 06:24:26 AM 654 Views

Something else to consider Myrdhyn - 09/09/2010 06:29:54 PM 1000 Views

The answer lies in which way it goes. Cannoli - 09/09/2010 08:04:28 PM 685 Views

I like they way you're thinking. Myrdhyn - 09/09/2010 08:57:51 PM 617 Views

But see my discussion above with DomA - I think that some girls get more attention and training. *NM* Cannoli - 10/09/2010 03:53:58 AM 274 Views

Right but if this theory holds true, that only exacerbates the different between the two levels *NM* Myrdhyn - 10/09/2010 05:26:52 PM 302 Views

Which two levels? Initiate & sister? Strong & weak? *NM* Cannoli - 14/09/2010 02:06:19 AM 284 Views

Strong and weak, sorry I wasn't more clear. *NM* Myrdhyn - 14/09/2010 06:16:59 PM 296 Views

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<quote id="148031">
<quote>IIRC, novices and accepted generally spend about a decade in each rank, twenty years in total. We see that women who climb the ranks faster achieve the shawl before they've reached their full potential.

It occurred to me that the average length of time a girl spends as a novice and as an Accepted could be a result of the Aes Sedai's hierarchy system. If girls were promoted to Accepted or the Shawl before they reached their full strength, it would mean that they would spend the next few years slowly gaining in rank and influence, and that the sisters they interacted with would have to keep in mind both their potential and their actual strength in the Power.</quote> I don't see the reasoning here.  Why would the Aes Sedai want to avoid promoting them before they gained their full strength?  How does a sister starting at a lower place in the hierarchy than she will eventually end up negatively affect the sisters that they would want to make her take her place in what would be her permanent place in the hierarchy?  I would think, especially since you seem to be suggesting it is the higher-strength girls who motivate this supposed policy, they would actually PREFER them to start out lower.  At least when they are lower in strength it is easier to subordinate their noob-natures and make them submit.  If they are eventually going to be near the top of the hierarchy, why would you want to hold them back so they can start out as brand-new sisters, who outrank all but the officials in the Tower, and can talk smack to almost any sister in the Tower?

Rather, I would think that when they get a girl who is destined to be one of the highest-ranking sisters in the hierarchy, they would promote her when she was still weak enough to be given orders and have to accept guidance from women who are still her betters, even if they soon will not be.

<quote>I doubt it was ever a public decision, or even an active one. Rather, I think the time girls spend in gaining the shawl is a function of their training and the mindset of the Aes Sedai in power at the time.

I would assume that during the Trolloc Wars, when they trained girls hard and fast, more girls were forced to reach their full potential more quickly, and were promoted more quickly as well.</quote> Really?  Because the one source I know about their behavior at the time regarding initiates was that they kept a woman who was fully qualified to be a sister in the kitchens for a year or two as punishment for a minor rules violation.  For partaking of a privilege exclusively reserved to sisters one day early, she was withheld from useful work during a time of the greatest crisis in 1,000 years!  Unless the BWB or RJ said something to the effect that they hastened girls through the system in those days, Birgitte's memory of Barashelle suggests it was business as usual for the Tower.

<quote>During Hawkwing's siege, we would probably see a similar effect, because Aes Sedai outside the tower were dying, and those inside the tower had nothing else to do but train younger girls, so they probably progressed more quickly than girls in times of peace.</quote>
<quote>The Aes Sedai in power during those times wouldn't be consciously thinking about where the upcoming girls would fit into the hierarchy, but they would have that ranking system in the back of their minds when judging if a girl was ready to be promoted.</quote> And as I understand you, you are claiming their thought process was: "Better not promote her now when she will be the 138th highest sister in the Tower.  We should rather wait until she has reached her full strength which will put her somewhere in the top 20."  I just don't see that rationale. 
</quote>

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