Re: Thoughts on myrdrraal and the three rings ter'angreal - Edit 1
Before modification by Keira at 31/08/2010 11:00:04 AM
In regards to your musings about the WT testing ter'angreal, I literally just finished typing out some of my thoughts about it in another thread.
http://www.readandfindout.com/wheeloftime/messageboard/144913/
RJ has made it a point to specifically mention in several books that we may never know that original use of some ter'angreal, and that the WT has NO idea what the original use of their testing rings were for. I do believe the WT rings take you to T'A'R.
I think you're mixing up the WT rings and the Rhuidean rings and columns.
The WT rings utilize T'A'R and draw from the user their fears and hopes and presents a challenge to pass them by in order to gain Acceptance. In my other thread that I'm linking at the bottom I also talk about these rings and their ability to read strong threads in the future. So I don't think they draw SOLELY from the user, yet from strong threads in the pattern and how strong your connection is to those threads in the pattern.
The Rhuidean rings show you every possible choice and path in the pattern you could take based on what choice you make. Again, they probably take you to some aspect of T'A'R in order to "physically" show you these choices, similar to the WT rings. Also similar to the WT rings, I think these rings can read some significant threads in the pattern in order to show these possible branchings.
Remember, T'A'R is the constant between the pattern and all possible worlds like those in the Portal Stones, and T'A'R can be used to foretell or view these possible futures if you know how or have the ability.
I think the pattern needed to let Egwene know about the 13+13 turn for a reason. That she would face it, or face the effects of it later on. Here's some backstory on why I think this is.
I feel the need to point out that it was Sheriam, who we know now was Black Ajah, that told Egwene the specifics of a 13 channeler + 13 myrdraal turn. During the second ring, Rand had told Egwene that the Shadow could turn him but only after that did Egwene learn the specifics from Sheriam. And while it could be innocuous enough, I think Sheriam pulled some sneaksy Black Ajah Aes Sedai word trickery on Egwene when she told her.
"Sheriam sighed, glanced at the other Aes Sedai again, then dropped her voice to a whisper and spoke swiftly. 'This is something known only to a few, child, even in the Tower. You should not learn it now, if ever, but I will tell you.'"
And later, "If others knew, we could never convince them they were safe. Only one who can channel can be turned in this way. The weakness is our strength. Everyone else is as safe as a fortress; only their own deeds and will can turn them to the Shadow."
Dragon Reborn, chapter 21
How the hell would Sheriam know about this? Mistress of Novices is a distinctive position, however it is not the highest in the slightest. If only very few know about this, and I'm guessing Amyrlin, Keeper, Sitters, extremely reclusive Brown sisters, but sealed to the flame in general. The only plausible reason Sheriam knows this is that she's black. She obviously doesn't want anyone else to hear either, and that could just be general caution, but again, "This is something known only to a few, child, even in the Tower." reeks of BA word bending to me.
Anyway, I think you're partly right in terms of the rings. I think the rings can draw specific thoughts out of you, but I think it ALSO is able to draw from major threads in the pattern to show potential futures as well. Egwene had NO reason to know that you could be turned when she was told so by Rand in the second Ring. The pattern/T'A'R told her, and I think it was tied to the importance of this event showing up in the future.
Also, I very much agree that myrdraal are the double double recessive throwbacks of human stock that had the ability to channel. I like the thought that they are outside of the pattern, like the DO, and that the source of their power draws on the TP, the essence of the DO. It's all very cyclical which is one of RJ's very big schticks.
http://www.readandfindout.com/wheeloftime/messageboard/144913/
Three Ring ter'angreal: the two that are known are the rings at rhuidean and the novice to accepted challenge. i was wondering what were the original purpose of these rings? they need to be constantly "plugged into" the OP and appear to be of a similar ilk to the twisted stone ring. ring grants access to t'a'r and the rings obviously do something similar, but what's the point?
RJ has made it a point to specifically mention in several books that we may never know that original use of some ter'angreal, and that the WT has NO idea what the original use of their testing rings were for. I do believe the WT rings take you to T'A'R.
i think both the ter'angreal at rhuidean and the WT are like holodecks for recording messages/scenarios/memories. i think the AS who travelled with the aiel set it up to remind them and sort of programmed those scenes into it. the WT one though is weird. what's the point of generating your fears? unless at some point an AS reprogrammed it do that, which would mean early on in the WT's formation an AS knew how to work it.
the rhuidean one seems to have preprogrammed scenes into it, but the WT obviously draws from the user, but also has some "memories" in there. people who go in know things that they should not, perhaps they are echoes of memory from previous users?
I think you're mixing up the WT rings and the Rhuidean rings and columns.
The WT rings utilize T'A'R and draw from the user their fears and hopes and presents a challenge to pass them by in order to gain Acceptance. In my other thread that I'm linking at the bottom I also talk about these rings and their ability to read strong threads in the future. So I don't think they draw SOLELY from the user, yet from strong threads in the pattern and how strong your connection is to those threads in the pattern.
The Rhuidean rings show you every possible choice and path in the pattern you could take based on what choice you make. Again, they probably take you to some aspect of T'A'R in order to "physically" show you these choices, similar to the WT rings. Also similar to the WT rings, I think these rings can read some significant threads in the pattern in order to show these possible branchings.
Remember, T'A'R is the constant between the pattern and all possible worlds like those in the Portal Stones, and T'A'R can be used to foretell or view these possible futures if you know how or have the ability.
on egwene's third arch, the strongest thought in her mind are the black ajah and the number thirteen. in her testing both these feature strongly, with the threat of being turned and elaida amongst thirteen black ajah. so it would stand that the ter'angreal is able to pick up on egwene's thoughts or maybe egwene's thoughts shaped what she experienced?
I think the pattern needed to let Egwene know about the 13+13 turn for a reason. That she would face it, or face the effects of it later on. Here's some backstory on why I think this is.
I feel the need to point out that it was Sheriam, who we know now was Black Ajah, that told Egwene the specifics of a 13 channeler + 13 myrdraal turn. During the second ring, Rand had told Egwene that the Shadow could turn him but only after that did Egwene learn the specifics from Sheriam. And while it could be innocuous enough, I think Sheriam pulled some sneaksy Black Ajah Aes Sedai word trickery on Egwene when she told her.
"Sheriam sighed, glanced at the other Aes Sedai again, then dropped her voice to a whisper and spoke swiftly. 'This is something known only to a few, child, even in the Tower. You should not learn it now, if ever, but I will tell you.'"
And later, "If others knew, we could never convince them they were safe. Only one who can channel can be turned in this way. The weakness is our strength. Everyone else is as safe as a fortress; only their own deeds and will can turn them to the Shadow."
Dragon Reborn, chapter 21
How the hell would Sheriam know about this? Mistress of Novices is a distinctive position, however it is not the highest in the slightest. If only very few know about this, and I'm guessing Amyrlin, Keeper, Sitters, extremely reclusive Brown sisters, but sealed to the flame in general. The only plausible reason Sheriam knows this is that she's black. She obviously doesn't want anyone else to hear either, and that could just be general caution, but again, "This is something known only to a few, child, even in the Tower." reeks of BA word bending to me.
perhaps it is because as they go through the arches that they will face something horrible, their fears that they then produce something awful, their greatest fears. perhaps if they were told that through those arches were the greatest things you had ever seen, that would be what they experienced? that would echo how t'a'r works, using your will to shape and manipulate t'a'r. maybe that's why it's important that they remember "the way comes but once, be steadfast" that remembering that causes the gateway to appear. perhaps if you were told it comes whenever you wish it, it would. after all for practical application, when it was made what's the point in having something like that, that doesn't last more than a few minutes?
Anyway, I think you're partly right in terms of the rings. I think the rings can draw specific thoughts out of you, but I think it ALSO is able to draw from major threads in the pattern to show potential futures as well. Egwene had NO reason to know that you could be turned when she was told so by Rand in the second Ring. The pattern/T'A'R told her, and I think it was tied to the importance of this event showing up in the future.
Also, I very much agree that myrdraal are the double double recessive throwbacks of human stock that had the ability to channel. I like the thought that they are outside of the pattern, like the DO, and that the source of their power draws on the TP, the essence of the DO. It's all very cyclical which is one of RJ's very big schticks.