That last line had me laughing! (right on the money too, by the way) *NM*
Mik Send a noteboard - 27/07/2010 02:58:20 PM
Why Brandon (in particular) considers Jordan an impressive master of foreshadowing is because of how he managed to pepper the series with allusions to things that play out much later without making the books predictable or even those elements stand out too much (he achieved that in part by putting so many of them that few stand out as more than casual remarks or observations...). He was apparently amazed by how many elements set up or foreshadowed especially in the first three books play out through AMOL.
The theories get wrong not because there's no foreshadowing or the plot develops "randomly", but because there's tons of it (including several red herrings) and Jordan was an expert at including foreshadowing elements that could be interpreted in a dozen or more different ways (he built his prophecies, which are also a form of foreshadowing, exactly the same way). The theories are most often "off" or largely off, because the foreshadowing is misinterpreted, because connections are made between various elements that aren't supposed to be connected (eg: Elayne's severed hand and Rand's lost hand), because one ends up falling for a "red herring" that screws what you had right about a foreshadowed element, or because it's only after the fact that the foreshadowing becomes anywhere obvious as foreshadowing.
Some of it wasn't overlooked, though. For instance (just one examples among tons), the casual mention to Min by Rand that he would rather give up an arm rather than cause harm to her has been spotted as suspected foreshadowing long before KOD when Rand put his arm in harm's way to protect Min, and lost his hand. It had even been linked to the viewings of Elayne "an axe, and a bloody hand, not hers" in a theory that Rand would lose an arm or an hand (good example of misinterpration. The viewings had nothing to do with that, obviously). It was even suggested in a post-COT theory that Rand might be forced by Semirhage to torture Min and would stop it by cutting his own hand.
Another example of misinterpretation: if you remember, I was using the scene in LOC as a basis for my speculation that Semirhage had been ordered by Moridin to capture Rand. That part turned out true enough. The second part was that maybe Semirhage had been expected all along to be captured, that Moridin had been willing to sacrifice her if he must, to capture Rand. That turned out untrue, because it's only in TGS that the apparent sacrifice was decided and happened. Still, we had the part about foreshadowing from the LOC scene right, it's just that nobody had been able to interpret it correctly and derive a theory dead on the money.
Foreshadowing abounds in WOT (there's more in it than in most series I've ever read), but its purpose isn't to make the plot predictable or even to help us puzzle out what will happen before it happens (Jordan started using heavy foreshadowing long before he even knew his books would spark theories, before the internet phenomenon too), it's rather one more element RJ used to give the feeling, after something does happen, of "déjà vu", to give the impression it's all part of a pattern, in which things repeat in variations. Foreshadowing is meant to go largely unnoticed or just subconsciously be absorbed, until after the fact you muse "hmmm... there had been quite a few allusions before to severed hands, no?".
Some people have the nose to spot possible foreshadowing long before the events foreshadowed play out, others are extremely good at making the connections to old foreshadowing as they read a new book the first time, for others they notice a lot of it in rereads only. Apparently, there's even some who deny it's there
The theories get wrong not because there's no foreshadowing or the plot develops "randomly", but because there's tons of it (including several red herrings) and Jordan was an expert at including foreshadowing elements that could be interpreted in a dozen or more different ways (he built his prophecies, which are also a form of foreshadowing, exactly the same way). The theories are most often "off" or largely off, because the foreshadowing is misinterpreted, because connections are made between various elements that aren't supposed to be connected (eg: Elayne's severed hand and Rand's lost hand), because one ends up falling for a "red herring" that screws what you had right about a foreshadowed element, or because it's only after the fact that the foreshadowing becomes anywhere obvious as foreshadowing.
Some of it wasn't overlooked, though. For instance (just one examples among tons), the casual mention to Min by Rand that he would rather give up an arm rather than cause harm to her has been spotted as suspected foreshadowing long before KOD when Rand put his arm in harm's way to protect Min, and lost his hand. It had even been linked to the viewings of Elayne "an axe, and a bloody hand, not hers" in a theory that Rand would lose an arm or an hand (good example of misinterpration. The viewings had nothing to do with that, obviously). It was even suggested in a post-COT theory that Rand might be forced by Semirhage to torture Min and would stop it by cutting his own hand.
Another example of misinterpretation: if you remember, I was using the scene in LOC as a basis for my speculation that Semirhage had been ordered by Moridin to capture Rand. That part turned out true enough. The second part was that maybe Semirhage had been expected all along to be captured, that Moridin had been willing to sacrifice her if he must, to capture Rand. That turned out untrue, because it's only in TGS that the apparent sacrifice was decided and happened. Still, we had the part about foreshadowing from the LOC scene right, it's just that nobody had been able to interpret it correctly and derive a theory dead on the money.
Foreshadowing abounds in WOT (there's more in it than in most series I've ever read), but its purpose isn't to make the plot predictable or even to help us puzzle out what will happen before it happens (Jordan started using heavy foreshadowing long before he even knew his books would spark theories, before the internet phenomenon too), it's rather one more element RJ used to give the feeling, after something does happen, of "déjà vu", to give the impression it's all part of a pattern, in which things repeat in variations. Foreshadowing is meant to go largely unnoticed or just subconsciously be absorbed, until after the fact you muse "hmmm... there had been quite a few allusions before to severed hands, no?".
Some people have the nose to spot possible foreshadowing long before the events foreshadowed play out, others are extremely good at making the connections to old foreshadowing as they read a new book the first time, for others they notice a lot of it in rereads only. Apparently, there's even some who deny it's there
Mik ~ Ishamaels halfmad 'brother'
Death dances in my footsteps....
Death dances in my footsteps....
foreshadowing of Semirhage's death
25/07/2010 07:13:48 AM
- 1577 Views
I don't think that Semirhage was sacrificed
25/07/2010 08:36:47 AM
- 788 Views
I disagree about the TP aspect
25/07/2010 03:30:37 PM
- 696 Views
Re: I disagree about the TP aspect
25/07/2010 04:03:45 PM
- 688 Views
It's an interesting theory in either direction
25/07/2010 04:54:31 PM
- 630 Views
Re: It's an interesting theory in either direction
26/07/2010 02:17:35 AM
- 490 Views
BS said "there will be consequences from Rand's True Power use."
26/07/2010 09:24:26 AM
- 509 Views
Re: BS said "there will be consequences from Rand's True Power use."
27/07/2010 03:48:32 AM
- 528 Views
Re: BS said "there will be consequences from Rand's True Power use."
27/07/2010 04:18:34 AM
- 482 Views
Re: I disagree about the TP aspect
26/07/2010 01:22:30 AM
- 524 Views
I don't know if Semirhage was sacrificed or not. Either way the Semirhage quote set up tGS 6 books
26/07/2010 02:29:59 AM
- 579 Views
You were right the first time
26/07/2010 03:02:22 AM
- 626 Views
I think the question is...
26/07/2010 08:27:17 AM
- 541 Views
Re: I think the question is...
27/07/2010 12:43:44 AM
- 524 Views
Re: I think the question is...
27/07/2010 01:15:29 AM
- 543 Views
Re: I think the question is...
27/07/2010 02:10:41 AM
- 517 Views
Re: I think the question is...
27/07/2010 03:17:01 AM
- 585 Views
I'd say that there was a pre-meditated plan or backup plan to sacrifice Semirhage
26/07/2010 09:02:44 AM
- 577 Views
I think SH simply didn't care about the CK access key
26/07/2010 09:17:11 AM
- 507 Views
Moridin and SH knew that the CK could never defeat the dark one so they were happy to leave it
26/07/2010 05:56:56 PM
- 562 Views
Unlikely, and stupid if true
26/07/2010 06:12:30 PM
- 507 Views
That wasn't the Choedan Kal, that was Shadar Logoth.
27/07/2010 12:11:46 AM
- 466 Views
Re: That wasn't the Choedan Kal, that was Shadar Logoth.
27/07/2010 01:29:29 AM
- 493 Views
I fail to see the relevance. *NM*
27/07/2010 02:06:27 AM
- 225 Views
the relevance is that it was impossible without the CK
27/07/2010 05:25:45 AM
- 439 Views
Are you certain?
27/07/2010 05:37:28 AM
- 492 Views
Re: Unlikely, and stupid if true
27/07/2010 01:36:53 AM
- 459 Views
Re: Unlikely, and stupid if true
27/07/2010 02:19:22 AM
- 497 Views
Re: Unlikely, and stupid if true
27/07/2010 02:43:39 AM
- 513 Views
Re: Unlikely, and stupid if true
27/07/2010 03:17:49 AM
- 518 Views
Re: Unlikely, and stupid if true
27/07/2010 01:44:19 AM
- 548 Views
??? The CK in the hands of a madman is exactly what the Dark One needs to destroy the pattern
27/07/2010 07:01:13 AM
- 512 Views
So why not give it to Moridin then?
27/07/2010 10:54:47 AM
- 511 Views
If their plan of taking Rand to Shayol Ghul suceeded then the CK was no longer needed
27/07/2010 03:39:58 PM
- 500 Views
Could be simple. How do you find an object that "lies hidden"?
27/07/2010 04:17:35 PM
- 477 Views
It could be, but I would still think they would have noticed the CK sitting next to the male a'dam
27/07/2010 04:34:45 PM
- 473 Views
This has been seen and commented before, by myself and others.
26/07/2010 03:36:51 PM
- 474 Views
Sorry I missed them. I would have been happy enough to comment there.
27/07/2010 03:43:46 AM
- 485 Views
Hands up if you don't believe in foreshadowing in this series
26/07/2010 04:27:14 PM
- 502 Views
Re: Hands up if you don't believe in foreshadowing in this series
26/07/2010 10:34:18 PM
- 462 Views
You confuse foreshadowing and predictability
27/07/2010 02:57:15 AM
- 796 Views
That last line had me laughing! (right on the money too, by the way) *NM*
27/07/2010 02:58:20 PM
- 211 Views
I don't believe in foreshadowing that you can figure out from the actual plot.
27/07/2010 08:42:11 PM
- 470 Views