Thanks for those answers. Here's how wrong they actually are: - Edit 2
Before modification by Mik at 26/07/2010 02:05:50 PM
Thanks for really debating actual content.
Now let me show you how weak my arguments actually are..;
As far as we know, SH 0.5. was at some point disposed of. Later, apparently when Ishy wasn't already transmigrated, the DO managed to get it right.No. It's not 'as far as we know'. It's as far as you can look, because else the picture you drew about Moridin and Shaidar Haran being seperate beings falls apart.
Common sense actually suggests there is more to it then your "As far as we know, Shai'tan took out SHv0,5 all by himself at about the same time that Ishamael died, for no apparent reason".
There's a reason RJ carefully planted the fact that SHv0,5 didn't keep his promise at the same time that Ishamael died. But if you won't allow yourself to make logic deductions rather then ignore that which not suits your story (like you say I'm doing) then suit yourself.
I can't convince the willingly blind.
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Moridin is wearing fancloth as the watcher, and it is pointed out that the watcher is sneaking. SH wouldn't need that, he can lurk in the shadows.You might want to re-read that section more closely. As I already pointed out, it was noon in a leafless forest and the Watcher is moving around. As we can tell from Shaidar Harans PoV (in Chapter 40 - Spears, I think it was) he moves out of deeper shadows and becomes visible as a direct result. There is no shadow to hide in (or move around in) in a leafless forest at noon. All that takes is common sense again. Not weak arguments.
As we can read in TEotW Chapter 6 - The Westwood, a fade and it's horse move without making any sound by choice, yet it is as visible as the trollocs.
In daylight (or any area lighter then 'deeper shadows' ) a Fade is as visible as a human being. So a Fade would need fancloth to not be seen. The Watcher just came prepared.
Are you seriously suggesting that Moridin 'sneaked' without making any sound in a forest on a bed of brown/ dead leaves? (again - read that chapter). The Watcher could easily hear Sammael and Grandael, yet Sammael and Grandael -heightened hearing and all- didn't hear a thing! Now that's weak assumption if you ask me.
SH also doesn't have eyebrows and eyes, contrary to the watcher, as it is explicitely mentioned.I think this is where Cannoli would snap his PoV-trap shut. 
We know -per RJ's words- that the new Shaidar Haran is improved compared to SHv0.5. Now just suppose for a second that that means a Slayer-like connection between a Fade and a transmigrated Ishamael. Wouldn't what Shaidar Haran tells the 'gars in LoC also go for Shaidar Haran itself? It tells Osan'gar and Aran'gar that "“You will adapt. The body bends to the soul, but the mind bends to the body".
Shaidar Harans mind (namely whats left of Ishamaels TP corrupted mind & a void where Shai'tan resides) still has to come to terms with it's own situation as well!
It's why Shaidar Haran -in that same scene, right after that sentence- almost make a mistak by saying it will give Aran'gar to the Myrddraal instead of 'my brothers'.
You walked right into RJ's PoV trap, Etzel.
The Watcher just thinks of 'his eyes'. We never see them. But as we can see from Shaidar Harans PoV in chapter 40, it still thinks that "In its eyes, the gateways left a residue" (or something much like that). Slowly, the mind is adapting to the body...as Shaidar Haran told the ´gars it would. Yet when Shaidar Haran refers to his vision, it thinks to itself of looking with eyes.
And go read Aran´gars PoV´s to read that Shaidar Haran was right..
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Moridin can sense saidin (1) and see it glow around Sammael (2). The typical "prickling" tells him about saidar, as it is explicitely mentioned(3).(4)This answer is wrong in so many ways I don´t know where to begin!
1. A human male channeler can sense another human male channeler, but only at very close range. We don't know exactly how close, but from examples between Rand/ Asmo, Rahvin/ Sammael & Eben/ Aran'gar we know it's really close. Are you suggesting the Watcher was sitting on Sammaels back?
Even 50 feet is pushing the limits of human male channelers sensing one another. You think Moridin was trailing the deadly duo 'by the easy to follow red shiny silk dress' at 50 feet?!?
2. Human male channelers don't see a glow around other human male channelers. Plain wrong.
3. Again, the suggested range by the text is way too far off for a male human channeler to sense a female channeler merely holding the source! It just doesn't add up!
4. Most important of all. You didn't answer my question at all!
Regardless of how your explanation doesn't work for the Watcher to be able to sense both Sammael and Grandael, let's just suppose you were right for a second....
My question was: How did the Watcher sense the difference between the pair linking with Sammael leading the link or Sammael letting the link dissolve and the pair holding the Source seperately?
I'm willing to rephrase the question if you do not see the difference....
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The watcher obviously wasn't that far away.Hang on. It's specifically stated that the Watcher follows them by Grandaels shiny, silk, bright red dress (in a leafless forrest at noon), yet you suggest that's a lie? The Watcher lied to himself?
Got a suggestion then for how far off the Watcher was trailing Sammael & Grandael? A ballpark figure will do. Immagine yourself in a leafless forrest at noon trailing a couple by an easy-to-follow silk, shiny, red dress. (all straight from the text)
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1. PoV trap (enterrrr Cannoli!), even explained by Shaidar Haran in the LoC prologue himself (oh the irony!)
2. Wrong! There was no 'deeper shadow' to lurk and follow from. Talk about weak evidence. Myrddraal aren't invisible you know.
3. Wrong again. As seen by the three Myrddraal dealing with the bandits who caught Elayne, Egwene & Nyneave all three feel 'an Itch' when Egwene channels a hair-thin thread (from the top of my head..don't know what chapter..look it up).
And on top of that, "Shaidar Haran was no regular Myrddraal"...he smells & sees the One Power! Heck.. he's MORE aware of the OP then humans are.
Now... how's that for weak arguments??
Round two?
Cheers,
Mik
Now let me show you how weak my arguments actually are..;
1: Why did the killing of Carridins family stop for 2 months right after Ishamael died, while SHv0.5 made that promise and it was SHv0.5 that was carrying it out up untill that point? Note that this promise wasn't forgotten at all and that -in the end- Moridin ordered Carridin had to be killed according to SHv0.5's promise.
As far as we know, SH 0.5. was at some point disposed of. Later, apparently when Ishy wasn't already transmigrated, the DO managed to get it right.
Common sense actually suggests there is more to it then your "As far as we know, Shai'tan took out SHv0,5 all by himself at about the same time that Ishamael died, for no apparent reason".
There's a reason RJ carefully planted the fact that SHv0,5 didn't keep his promise at the same time that Ishamael died. But if you won't allow yourself to make logic deductions rather then ignore that which not suits your story (like you say I'm doing) then suit yourself.
I can't convince the willingly blind.
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2: Explain to me how the Watcher could be Moridin when The Watcher "ghosted soundlesly through the trees", following two very experienced channelers holding the Source (thus having heightened senses) in a leafless forest at noon, littered with brown leaves where those two channelers stumble around to just to keep their balance. (ACoS - Patterns within Patterns)
Moridin is wearing fancloth as the watcher, and it is pointed out that the watcher is sneaking. SH wouldn't need that, he can lurk in the shadows.
As we can read in TEotW Chapter 6 - The Westwood, a fade and it's horse move without making any sound by choice, yet it is as visible as the trollocs.
In daylight (or any area lighter then 'deeper shadows' ) a Fade is as visible as a human being. So a Fade would need fancloth to not be seen. The Watcher just came prepared.
Are you seriously suggesting that Moridin 'sneaked' without making any sound in a forest on a bed of brown/ dead leaves? (again - read that chapter). The Watcher could easily hear Sammael and Grandael, yet Sammael and Grandael -heightened hearing and all- didn't hear a thing! Now that's weak assumption if you ask me.
SH also doesn't have eyebrows and eyes, contrary to the watcher, as it is explicitely mentioned.
We know -per RJ's words- that the new Shaidar Haran is improved compared to SHv0.5. Now just suppose for a second that that means a Slayer-like connection between a Fade and a transmigrated Ishamael. Wouldn't what Shaidar Haran tells the 'gars in LoC also go for Shaidar Haran itself? It tells Osan'gar and Aran'gar that "“You will adapt. The body bends to the soul, but the mind bends to the body".
Shaidar Harans mind (namely whats left of Ishamaels TP corrupted mind & a void where Shai'tan resides) still has to come to terms with it's own situation as well!
It's why Shaidar Haran -in that same scene, right after that sentence- almost make a mistak by saying it will give Aran'gar to the Myrddraal instead of 'my brothers'.
You walked right into RJ's PoV trap, Etzel.
The Watcher just thinks of 'his eyes'. We never see them. But as we can see from Shaidar Harans PoV in chapter 40, it still thinks that "In its eyes, the gateways left a residue" (or something much like that). Slowly, the mind is adapting to the body...as Shaidar Haran told the ´gars it would. Yet when Shaidar Haran refers to his vision, it thinks to itself of looking with eyes.
And go read Aran´gars PoV´s to read that Shaidar Haran was right..
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3: Explain to me if the Watcher is Moridin how he noticed that(apparently from some distance) Sammy had let the link between himself and Granny dissolve? Note that the Watcher also knew that both Sammy and Granny still held on to the Source.
Moridin can sense saidin (1) and see it glow around Sammael (2). The typical "prickling" tells him about saidar, as it is explicitely mentioned(3).(4)
1. A human male channeler can sense another human male channeler, but only at very close range. We don't know exactly how close, but from examples between Rand/ Asmo, Rahvin/ Sammael & Eben/ Aran'gar we know it's really close. Are you suggesting the Watcher was sitting on Sammaels back?
Even 50 feet is pushing the limits of human male channelers sensing one another. You think Moridin was trailing the deadly duo 'by the easy to follow red shiny silk dress' at 50 feet?!?
2. Human male channelers don't see a glow around other human male channelers. Plain wrong.
3. Again, the suggested range by the text is way too far off for a male human channeler to sense a female channeler merely holding the source! It just doesn't add up!
4. Most important of all. You didn't answer my question at all!
Regardless of how your explanation doesn't work for the Watcher to be able to sense both Sammael and Grandael, let's just suppose you were right for a second....
My question was: How did the Watcher sense the difference between the pair linking with Sammael leading the link or Sammael letting the link dissolve and the pair holding the Source seperately?
I'm willing to rephrase the question if you do not see the difference....
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4: How could the Watcher tell Sammy held the Source in the first place, given the Watcher was following the deadly duo by Grandaels easy-to-follow shiny red dress (indicating a fairly big distance).
The watcher obviously wasn't that far away.
Got a suggestion then for how far off the Watcher was trailing Sammael & Grandael? A ballpark figure will do. Immagine yourself in a leafless forrest at noon trailing a couple by an easy-to-follow silk, shiny, red dress. (all straight from the text)
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If you compare the watcher's PoV with others from Moridin, it's absolutely clear that Moridin is the watcher.
Not quite; it's Shaidar Haran with Ishamaels memory. Compare it to Luc with Isams memories. It can't be SH, because SH doesn't have eyes & eyebrows (1), doesn't need fancloth (2) and isn't that aware of the OP.(3)
1. PoV trap (enterrrr Cannoli!), even explained by Shaidar Haran in the LoC prologue himself (oh the irony!)
2. Wrong! There was no 'deeper shadow' to lurk and follow from. Talk about weak evidence. Myrddraal aren't invisible you know.
3. Wrong again. As seen by the three Myrddraal dealing with the bandits who caught Elayne, Egwene & Nyneave all three feel 'an Itch' when Egwene channels a hair-thin thread (from the top of my head..don't know what chapter..look it up).
And on top of that, "Shaidar Haran was no regular Myrddraal"...he smells & sees the One Power! Heck.. he's MORE aware of the OP then humans are.
Now... how's that for weak arguments??
Round two?
Cheers,
Mik