I'd say that there was a pre-meditated plan or backup plan to sacrifice Semirhage
Matrimony Cauthon Send a noteboard - 26/07/2010 09:02:44 AM
All of your reasons are excellent, but the fact that they left the Choedan Kal behind means that they at least had a backup plan in motion in case Rand did not get brought to Shayol Ghul.
My personal opinion is that Moridin already knew that Semirhage wouldn't be able to resist the temptation to torture Rand before heading to Shayol Ghul. Moridin probably also knew that Semirhage, out of anyone, could find a way to make Rand snap. The True Power was Rands only answer-- and Moridin could have possibly even have helped Rand along this path via their mental link.
I think this whole plan was designed to be a win-win situation for the shadow. They either had Rand in Shayol Ghul or they had a tainted Rand who was forced to draw on the True Power to escape. There was no other outcome in this situation. I can't say that the Shadow knew how it would go down, but they clearly designed the plan with the possibility that Rand did escape via the True Power.
I don't know if Semirhage was sacrificed or not. Either way the Semirhage quote set up tGS 6 books later. I think that is pretty impressive. Maybe RJ wanted to mislead us by that quote or maybe he wanted it to be a hint about the DOs true involvement. Semirhage believed that the DO betrayed her and the end result of the exchange seems to me to be in the DOs favor even if he didn't plan it that way. I agree also with what you are saying as well, though.
To me there is not enough evidence to figure out what the DOs involvement is. Hopefully, we will get a Moridin PoV or some other evidence to answer this question.
I think you were on the right track in your first post. The context of the LOC quote (which has been discussed a lot before in this context, by the way) is very important, because Semirhage was precisely expressing her worries about the DO's "whims", all the secret moves he made on the board, the introduction of a new player like SH, and she feared all along the DO might expend even pieces as powerful as his Chosen to achieve a specific goal.
Also important was the fact she mentions in that scene that she would kneel even to al'Thor if the DO made him Nae'blis...
So that's definitely foreshadowing. In the end, Shai'tan chose to gain power over Rand over Semirhage's life.
This scene is also completed in TGS with the Moridin/Rand conversation that set the stage for the betrayal of Semirhage. Moridin confirms Semirhage's greatest fears: the Chosen are fools whom the DO intend to betray in the end as there will be no reward but the end of Creation. Moridin also gave Rand the means by which he could prevent transmigration. Moridin cannot betray Shai'tan, because he is addicted to the TP and Shai'tan is also the only way Moridin can get what he wants, so.... what he told Rand wouldn't have displeased Shai'tan. Moridin/Shai'tan thought they had Rand pretty much in the state where he'd wish to end it all.
Also, there's the fact Jordan has long ago answered straight out how someone can use the TP, seeking to correct misconceptions about a pre-established connection and stuff like this (he must have known even then Rand would be given access down the line). There's three conditions for a human: the ability to channel, knowing how to embrace the TP (that is what Rand seems to have gained from Moridin, inconsciously), and Shai'tan letting you. It isn't and never was a question of connection to Shai'tan (the whole theory about Rand using his mental link to Moridin seems very much like a new variation on these misconceptions that you need any special connection....). It's very unlikely there's more to it than that. When there was aspects he chose to keep secret, Jordan had the habit of adding "there's more than that... but RAFO", as he did for several similar topics, like transmigration, the making of Grey Men, how the Chosen picked their powerbases, or even the purpose of the Dark Prophecy etc. For the TP access, he gave repeatedly a straight out answer with no caveat (and that's reflected by everything the Chosen have said about the TP in the series). It's fairly obvious RJ intended us to interpret what happened in TGS as the DO havinggiven Rand access to the TP. How everything went downhill with Rand right after that (even his ta'veren nature seemed affected - nothing the Wheel had been pulling him toward lately worked.. failure with Tuon, with Cadsuane, in AD, with the Bordermen, hitting a wall with Nynaeve about Lan... and in the end almost destroying the world...) sort of makes it obvious why the DO chose to betray Semirhage when she made the big mistake of torturing Rand, putting him in the state where he could embrace the TP (that's when Shai'tan took the decision, IMO. I don't believe it was all along a set up. He meant Semirhage to capture Rand, period. He betrayed her when she open an unexpected opportunity to bait Rand to use the TP)
Brandon is just walking on eggs with these answers, because AMOL is the last book and forcibly has many answers, but it's been split in three. Brandon is quite a bit in the position of giving us answers about the book when only 1/3 of it has been read, and forcibly issues set up in acts 1-2 will stay around for act 3 as well. It's no wonder he's trying to avoid confirming much of anything, and that he's being vague. In this specific instance, the fact he pointed out to Semirhage and her reaction is pretty telling, though (he brought her belief up, not the persons asking the questions who didn't even mention her)
My personal opinion is that Moridin already knew that Semirhage wouldn't be able to resist the temptation to torture Rand before heading to Shayol Ghul. Moridin probably also knew that Semirhage, out of anyone, could find a way to make Rand snap. The True Power was Rands only answer-- and Moridin could have possibly even have helped Rand along this path via their mental link.
I think this whole plan was designed to be a win-win situation for the shadow. They either had Rand in Shayol Ghul or they had a tainted Rand who was forced to draw on the True Power to escape. There was no other outcome in this situation. I can't say that the Shadow knew how it would go down, but they clearly designed the plan with the possibility that Rand did escape via the True Power.
It makes no real sense that the Moridin first wanted Semirhage to capture Rand with the DB in KoD (as stated in TGS, prologue). Then SH actually frees Semirhage to try it again. Exactly in the moment, when she succeeds, when Rand is breaking, since he is killing Min, the DO would prevent this by saving Min and killing Semirhage due to giving Rand access to the TP.
It makes more sense that Rand managed to take the TP through the link to Moridin and that the Shadow couldn't foresee this. If Rand wouldn't have done this, the Shadow had likely won, because Rand would be a prisoner at SG, tortured by Semirhage, and Min dead.
It makes more sense that Rand managed to take the TP through the link to Moridin and that the Shadow couldn't foresee this. If Rand wouldn't have done this, the Shadow had likely won, because Rand would be a prisoner at SG, tortured by Semirhage, and Min dead.
I don't know if Semirhage was sacrificed or not. Either way the Semirhage quote set up tGS 6 books later. I think that is pretty impressive. Maybe RJ wanted to mislead us by that quote or maybe he wanted it to be a hint about the DOs true involvement. Semirhage believed that the DO betrayed her and the end result of the exchange seems to me to be in the DOs favor even if he didn't plan it that way. I agree also with what you are saying as well, though.
To me there is not enough evidence to figure out what the DOs involvement is. Hopefully, we will get a Moridin PoV or some other evidence to answer this question.
I think you were on the right track in your first post. The context of the LOC quote (which has been discussed a lot before in this context, by the way) is very important, because Semirhage was precisely expressing her worries about the DO's "whims", all the secret moves he made on the board, the introduction of a new player like SH, and she feared all along the DO might expend even pieces as powerful as his Chosen to achieve a specific goal.
Also important was the fact she mentions in that scene that she would kneel even to al'Thor if the DO made him Nae'blis...
So that's definitely foreshadowing. In the end, Shai'tan chose to gain power over Rand over Semirhage's life.
This scene is also completed in TGS with the Moridin/Rand conversation that set the stage for the betrayal of Semirhage. Moridin confirms Semirhage's greatest fears: the Chosen are fools whom the DO intend to betray in the end as there will be no reward but the end of Creation. Moridin also gave Rand the means by which he could prevent transmigration. Moridin cannot betray Shai'tan, because he is addicted to the TP and Shai'tan is also the only way Moridin can get what he wants, so.... what he told Rand wouldn't have displeased Shai'tan. Moridin/Shai'tan thought they had Rand pretty much in the state where he'd wish to end it all.
Also, there's the fact Jordan has long ago answered straight out how someone can use the TP, seeking to correct misconceptions about a pre-established connection and stuff like this (he must have known even then Rand would be given access down the line). There's three conditions for a human: the ability to channel, knowing how to embrace the TP (that is what Rand seems to have gained from Moridin, inconsciously), and Shai'tan letting you. It isn't and never was a question of connection to Shai'tan (the whole theory about Rand using his mental link to Moridin seems very much like a new variation on these misconceptions that you need any special connection....). It's very unlikely there's more to it than that. When there was aspects he chose to keep secret, Jordan had the habit of adding "there's more than that... but RAFO", as he did for several similar topics, like transmigration, the making of Grey Men, how the Chosen picked their powerbases, or even the purpose of the Dark Prophecy etc. For the TP access, he gave repeatedly a straight out answer with no caveat (and that's reflected by everything the Chosen have said about the TP in the series). It's fairly obvious RJ intended us to interpret what happened in TGS as the DO havinggiven Rand access to the TP. How everything went downhill with Rand right after that (even his ta'veren nature seemed affected - nothing the Wheel had been pulling him toward lately worked.. failure with Tuon, with Cadsuane, in AD, with the Bordermen, hitting a wall with Nynaeve about Lan... and in the end almost destroying the world...) sort of makes it obvious why the DO chose to betray Semirhage when she made the big mistake of torturing Rand, putting him in the state where he could embrace the TP (that's when Shai'tan took the decision, IMO. I don't believe it was all along a set up. He meant Semirhage to capture Rand, period. He betrayed her when she open an unexpected opportunity to bait Rand to use the TP)
Brandon is just walking on eggs with these answers, because AMOL is the last book and forcibly has many answers, but it's been split in three. Brandon is quite a bit in the position of giving us answers about the book when only 1/3 of it has been read, and forcibly issues set up in acts 1-2 will stay around for act 3 as well. It's no wonder he's trying to avoid confirming much of anything, and that he's being vague. In this specific instance, the fact he pointed out to Semirhage and her reaction is pretty telling, though (he brought her belief up, not the persons asking the questions who didn't even mention her)
foreshadowing of Semirhage's death
25/07/2010 07:13:48 AM
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I don't think that Semirhage was sacrificed
25/07/2010 08:36:47 AM
- 788 Views
I disagree about the TP aspect
25/07/2010 03:30:37 PM
- 697 Views
Re: I disagree about the TP aspect
25/07/2010 04:03:45 PM
- 689 Views
It's an interesting theory in either direction
25/07/2010 04:54:31 PM
- 631 Views
Re: It's an interesting theory in either direction
26/07/2010 02:17:35 AM
- 490 Views
BS said "there will be consequences from Rand's True Power use."
26/07/2010 09:24:26 AM
- 510 Views
Re: BS said "there will be consequences from Rand's True Power use."
27/07/2010 03:48:32 AM
- 528 Views
Re: BS said "there will be consequences from Rand's True Power use."
27/07/2010 04:18:34 AM
- 482 Views
Re: I disagree about the TP aspect
26/07/2010 01:22:30 AM
- 524 Views
I don't know if Semirhage was sacrificed or not. Either way the Semirhage quote set up tGS 6 books
26/07/2010 02:29:59 AM
- 579 Views
You were right the first time
26/07/2010 03:02:22 AM
- 627 Views
I think the question is...
26/07/2010 08:27:17 AM
- 541 Views
Re: I think the question is...
27/07/2010 12:43:44 AM
- 525 Views
Re: I think the question is...
27/07/2010 01:15:29 AM
- 543 Views
Re: I think the question is...
27/07/2010 02:10:41 AM
- 517 Views
Re: I think the question is...
27/07/2010 03:17:01 AM
- 586 Views
I'd say that there was a pre-meditated plan or backup plan to sacrifice Semirhage
26/07/2010 09:02:44 AM
- 578 Views
I think SH simply didn't care about the CK access key
26/07/2010 09:17:11 AM
- 508 Views
Moridin and SH knew that the CK could never defeat the dark one so they were happy to leave it
26/07/2010 05:56:56 PM
- 562 Views
Unlikely, and stupid if true
26/07/2010 06:12:30 PM
- 507 Views
That wasn't the Choedan Kal, that was Shadar Logoth.
27/07/2010 12:11:46 AM
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Re: That wasn't the Choedan Kal, that was Shadar Logoth.
27/07/2010 01:29:29 AM
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I fail to see the relevance. *NM*
27/07/2010 02:06:27 AM
- 225 Views
the relevance is that it was impossible without the CK
27/07/2010 05:25:45 AM
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Are you certain?
27/07/2010 05:37:28 AM
- 492 Views
Re: Unlikely, and stupid if true
27/07/2010 01:36:53 AM
- 459 Views
Re: Unlikely, and stupid if true
27/07/2010 02:19:22 AM
- 498 Views
Re: Unlikely, and stupid if true
27/07/2010 02:43:39 AM
- 513 Views
Re: Unlikely, and stupid if true
27/07/2010 03:17:49 AM
- 518 Views
Re: Unlikely, and stupid if true
27/07/2010 01:44:19 AM
- 548 Views
??? The CK in the hands of a madman is exactly what the Dark One needs to destroy the pattern
27/07/2010 07:01:13 AM
- 512 Views
So why not give it to Moridin then?
27/07/2010 10:54:47 AM
- 511 Views
If their plan of taking Rand to Shayol Ghul suceeded then the CK was no longer needed
27/07/2010 03:39:58 PM
- 500 Views
Could be simple. How do you find an object that "lies hidden"?
27/07/2010 04:17:35 PM
- 477 Views
It could be, but I would still think they would have noticed the CK sitting next to the male a'dam
27/07/2010 04:34:45 PM
- 473 Views
This has been seen and commented before, by myself and others.
26/07/2010 03:36:51 PM
- 475 Views
Sorry I missed them. I would have been happy enough to comment there.
27/07/2010 03:43:46 AM
- 485 Views
Hands up if you don't believe in foreshadowing in this series
26/07/2010 04:27:14 PM
- 502 Views
Re: Hands up if you don't believe in foreshadowing in this series
26/07/2010 10:34:18 PM
- 462 Views
You confuse foreshadowing and predictability
27/07/2010 02:57:15 AM
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That last line had me laughing! (right on the money too, by the way) *NM*
27/07/2010 02:58:20 PM
- 211 Views
I don't believe in foreshadowing that you can figure out from the actual plot.
27/07/2010 08:42:11 PM
- 470 Views