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Aww Dom. I really hoped you were on the same page.. Mik Send a noteboard - 25/07/2010 09:38:35 AM
The fact that apparently you aren't, saddens me in some strange way to be honest. I guess you could call it a deep respect for how a value your opinion on 'all-things-WoT'.
Even though your opinion puts a huge dent in my confidence, I still think I'm on the right track. So at the risk of making an ass out of myself... here goes;

First, let me adres the title of your post:
"Not the same individual"
Well. Wierd as this may sound, I tend to agree with that. And the reason is very simple. I don't think I'd dare call Slayer an 'individual' either. And since I'm advocating that the Nae'Blis is a '24/7-creature' bound together by a Slayer-like connection as between Isam & Luc, I don't think you'd have to consider that creature to be 'an individual'.

As I posted yesterday in this topic;
Like Slayer "both are".

The main differences with Slayer are that the one that 'did live' has a mind that can channel (Ishamael) and the one that 'did die' actually 'never was born' (A Fade/ Neverborn).
So you see, "both are", but never-ever "at the same Time". :)

Luc and Isam both seem to consider themselves as individuals in their PoV's (WH - Out of Thin Air). One decides to become the other one when it seems more appropriate. One likes killing wolves more then the other.
So my question to you is; do you consider Slayer to be an individual? Or do you consider Slayer to be two individuals meshed together that share eachothers memories? (2 bodies, 2 minds, 1 soul, for instance)

Because if it's the latter, I hardly see your point as this being a reason for denying the possibility of Moridin & Shaidar Haran being one 'creature 24/7' (as RJ put it)
-------------------------------------------------

Now the rest of your post:
We can even put that ideal to rest: SH brought Moghedien to a room in which Moridin was.
As wierd as this feels for me writing this about something you posted, but that's just plain wrong.
You have no proof that Moridin was in that room, prior to him commanding Moghedien to open her eyes. Stating as fact Moridin was already in the room the moment Shaidar Haran was transporting Moghedien there is jumping to conclusions.

And like I asked Etzel earlier, this begs the question as to why Moghedien had to close her eyes and was told to keep them shut until she 'was commanded to open them'. What was it that Moghedien wasn't supposed to see those few seconds? And why -if they were seperate beings- did Moridin and Shaidar Haran have to agree on having her close her eyes? (Shaidar ordered her to shut her eyes and Moridin told her 'she could open them now', thus full-well knowing Moghedien was ordered to close her eyes)

The questions you should really be asking yourself are these;
1- What exactly had to remain unseen those few seconds by a spineless, selfish woman who was -literally and utterly- being owned by Moridin?
(How about the transition from Shaidar Haran to Moridin. :))

2- Why wasn't Shaidar Haran in that room too, if they are seperate beings?



They are disctinct.
Like I said when discussing the title of your post, we agree here. I'm just adding the "Slayer"-bit to the equation, making the point you raise moot (IMO).
Personally, I think this hidden connection is the main reason for Slayers whole existence in the story! What and who Slayer is, is slowly fed to us from book 2. Book by book we learn more about how Slayer works. And at the grand finale of this series RJ is going to slam down his ace-up-the-sleeve on the table. RJ needed a way to make his revelation of what the Nae'Blis truly is, feel 'intuitively obvious'. ;)
He did this by adding the Slayer-character.


SH is the result of attempts by the DO to infuse Shadowspawn with his own direct will...
Again; agreed! But again, the mechanics of how Slayer works actually helps this.
Because to be able to channel, you need a living mind. (per Moiraines words to Egwene back in TEotW). RJ's own words tell us that you need to be able to channel in the first place to be able to channel the True Power.
It's safe to say that Shai'tan doesn't have a living mind. Far from it in fact.

I think all Myrddraal have always been closely linked to Shai'tan, regardless of the degree of freedom of Shai'tan. They are literally half man. The other half is nothingness (and there is only one Master there).
I think all Myrddraal could have channeled -had they been humans-. It is what triggers the change from Trolloc to Fade. As we know, TP and OP don't mix (see taint on saidin for instance). What if the connections that Aginor made with the TP in the Trollocs design 'snap', because the OP runs through the system and only the part that is human forms the Myrddraal. The rest is void. The terrain of Shai'tan.

None of the Myrddraal can channel though (even though they have the potential, Soul-wise), because a Neverborn lacks one vital piece to be able to channel; a living mind.
After all, we could hardly call a Neverborn a 'living being', now could we? (this is an understatement, I know)

I think linking a living mind to a Fade solves the problem of a Fade not being able to channel (the so-called True Power).


....
(personally, I'm rather convinced there's no new breed of DH... it's a ridiculous notion when unlike Rand we know this is impossible as Aginor was dead then, and RJ told us his genetic knowledge is totally useless nowadays as he doesn't have the technology to do anything.. if Shai'tan could create viable breeds of Shadowspawn, he would not have needed men like Aginor in the first place, and it's not only DH (fairly minor players in the Shadow's stable) he would have created new breeds of but all the Shadowspawn would have gotten more powerful... just imagine how lethal and far more useful than DH Fades that can't be killed short of balefire would be (and it's probaly the case with SH, incidentally) So I think the DH sent to Rhuidean were not any "new breed" but unique cases of DH invested directly by Shai'tan like Shaidar Haran now is...
Totally agree on all points. There's one thing I'd like to add though. I view 'cause and effect' differently then you do.
I think the reason why Shai'tan was able to be present in Shaidar Haran the way he is, is due to the link to Ishamaels heavily corrupted mind. So it's not a matter of Shai'tan "willing it", but more the fact that the posiibility arose.

I also think that it's this link that allows Shai'tan to be more present on this side of Creation and that that fact makes the DH harder to kill.


He's just invested massively more (all he had available, probably) into a single Myrddraal that would be a vessel for him in Creation after his early experiments worked.
I disagree fundamentally here. The way I see it, Shai'tan represents the absence of everyhting (and then some). He is the Void. Nothingness. Uncreation. Zilch..Nada.. you get the point.

Shai'tan can't "invest massively more into a single Myrddraal", because I think there'd literally not be enough left of Creation to invest in!
Shai'tan already walks a very thin line with Myrddraal as they normally are!
They already stand partly (probably half-way, being half-men as cast from the same mold) outside creation/ time as is. Any more, and there just isn't enough of Creation left to be able to function inside Creation. Maybe that's why some of the Myrddraal die at..ermm.. 'birth'.


...It's very telling that Shai'tan chose a creature naturally spawned by others creatures for which the TP was originally used in their making over natural beings in the Pattern, like humans. The Myrddraal are the closest thing to a real "Shadow breed"....
100%. Yet this doesn't disprove Shaidar Haran & Moridin being linked in a Slayer-like fashion at all. In fact, I'd say it supports it.


The most telling thing about Moridin and Shaidar Haran is that Moridin is the only Chosen SH has so far left alone, and the only one who seems to work in tandem with SH. These two probably have much off-screen interaction (unless Moridin has a mental connection to Shai'tan as Nae'blis we don't know about, but that's doubftul), but so far we only see them work together but apart in complementary missions:...
We do know about that connection. In fact; we're discussing it right here!
Working together apart! That's classic (and very illogical and wrong I might add) If it's ONE thing we know for certain if it concerns Shai'tan, then it's the fact he doesn't share/ trust ONE bit. It's completely anathema for Him! What were the words? Uber-control-freak. Working together?
I'd never thought I'd see you write those words if it involved Shai'tan to be honest.
Shai'tan doesn't trust/ work together. He rules and grabs what he can where he can! Nae'blis? That's Shai'tan himself for as much as he can shove into Creation!

Moridin spots Sammael doing something possibly dubious, SH follows him around to get to the bottom of it,...
Again, you say something like it's fact, while it isn't! We see the Watcher spot Sammael doing something dubious. I know the on-line world thinks that they saw Moridin. But there's just as much to say that it was a certain Fade with what's left of Ishamaels mind.
Care to explain how "Moridin" saw the link between Sammael & Grandeal 'dissolve', while both Sammael and Grandeal still held on to the Source?
Or care to explain how the Whatcher 'ghosted through the trees soundlesly' while following two channelers with heigtened senses?

You say Moridin watched Sammael. I say it was Shaidar Haran.
Makes way more sense too in more ways then one.
The "Watcher" is a Lurk(er).

... and in the end Moridin is the one who appears to save Rand from Sammael (he might have be summonsed to go to SL by Shaidar Haran).
You think Rand would have accepted the hand of a Myrddraal then?
"Hello, I'm the "Hand of the Shadow" and I've come to save you, because to many well-laid plans/ traps have to be re-set when you die.."

Well. I'm looking forward to your reply.
Cheers,
Mik
Mik ~ Ishamaels halfmad 'brother'

Death dances in my footsteps....
This message last edited by Mik on 25/07/2010 at 07:16:18 PM
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Moridin & Shadar Haran - 22/07/2010 08:14:27 PM 1562 Views
No... - 22/07/2010 08:22:52 PM 952 Views
Re: No... - 22/07/2010 09:31:35 PM 863 Views
Re: No...(en garde, Etzellius Maximus!) - 23/07/2010 08:38:26 AM 875 Views
Well, I already talked more about it below - 23/07/2010 09:17:10 AM 969 Views
Re: Well, I already talked more about it below - 23/07/2010 11:29:08 AM 815 Views
Yup, I think they are one and the same. - 23/07/2010 08:21:20 AM 1112 Views
This idea is hardly vindicable - 23/07/2010 09:12:14 AM 869 Views
Au contraire. - 23/07/2010 11:23:09 AM 965 Views
But why... - 23/07/2010 11:32:25 AM 822 Views
Re: But why... - 23/07/2010 12:01:00 PM 849 Views
Again. RJ fooled you. - 23/07/2010 12:15:26 PM 867 Views
I think it would have to work this way: - 23/07/2010 03:10:59 PM 808 Views
Your reasoning falls apart right at the start, even though there is some truth to the rest, I think. - 23/07/2010 04:22:22 PM 908 Views
Um not quite - 25/07/2010 05:47:22 AM 768 Views
Hehehe. True, but the mental image still helps. - 25/07/2010 08:29:18 AM 1000 Views
Re: Hehehe. True, but the mental image still helps. - 25/07/2010 08:32:10 AM 1031 Views
I think your evidence is pretty weak... - 26/07/2010 10:14:01 AM 727 Views
Why don't you answer some of the issues I raised then, instead of keeping it vague..? - 26/07/2010 11:58:02 AM 830 Views
Re: Why don't you answer some of the issues I raised then, instead of keeping it vague..? - 26/07/2010 12:18:51 PM 832 Views
Re: Why don't you answer some of the issues I raised then, instead of keeping it vague..? - 26/07/2010 12:43:53 PM 777 Views
Frankly, I don't see any similarity... - 26/07/2010 01:57:56 PM 846 Views
Re: Frankly, I don't see any similarity... - 26/07/2010 04:09:52 PM 698 Views
The problem is... - 26/07/2010 04:27:50 PM 658 Views
No problem at all, but your unwillingness to accept the possibilty after all these years. - 27/07/2010 11:38:10 AM 764 Views
I already answered all this... - 27/07/2010 11:46:36 AM 778 Views
Yeah. And as proven earlier your answers are flat-out wrong. - 27/07/2010 01:17:36 PM 889 Views
I think we have to agree to disagree - 27/07/2010 01:34:34 PM 718 Views
Agreed then. - 27/07/2010 02:03:52 PM 868 Views
Thanks for those answers. Here's how wrong they actually are: - 26/07/2010 01:54:44 PM 801 Views
No problem - 26/07/2010 02:30:45 PM 854 Views
Why does that scene matter? - 26/07/2010 04:16:33 PM 743 Views
Dunno, you have to ask Mik about this. *NM* - 26/07/2010 04:23:19 PM 410 Views
Why the half answer? Here's my full answer and the questions you missed..again.. - 26/07/2010 05:14:00 PM 933 Views
Just to understand you correctly... - 26/07/2010 05:33:46 PM 771 Views
Sure..I'll answer your questions again.. "quid pro quo"? - 27/07/2010 12:43:21 PM 848 Views
Well, kudos to you, if that idea turns out to be right - 27/07/2010 01:27:05 PM 812 Views
Re: Well, kudos to you, if that idea turns out to be right - 27/07/2010 01:56:32 PM 707 Views
The DO has control over Moridin... - 27/07/2010 02:04:50 PM 660 Views
Uhh. Thanks ..I guess. - 27/07/2010 01:57:38 PM 877 Views
I almost want the theory to be true, but one quick thing: - 26/07/2010 03:53:04 PM 747 Views
Re: I almost want the theory to be true, but one quick thing: - 26/07/2010 04:18:40 PM 645 Views
True, but if they're ordering other people to do it anyway... - 26/07/2010 04:51:18 PM 688 Views
One should also remember... - 26/07/2010 05:06:36 PM 683 Views
Eh? - 26/07/2010 05:30:20 PM 709 Views
But that the killing stopped, doesn't mean at all that Moridin and SH are one creature. *NM* - 26/07/2010 05:35:02 PM 755 Views
Give me a better reason? Why did RJ make the timing fit and hid it so far apart? - 26/07/2010 05:36:28 PM 793 Views
I think... - 26/07/2010 05:48:21 PM 607 Views
Re: I almost want the theory to be true, but one quick thing: - 26/07/2010 05:22:46 PM 850 Views
Re: This idea is hardly vindicable - 27/07/2010 04:07:53 PM 727 Views
= - Oh and has anyone given thought to Hopper = Bela? - 27/07/2010 09:17:18 PM 654 Views
Thanks! *bows and tips wide-brimmed hat* - 28/07/2010 07:54:05 AM 887 Views
Not the same individual - 24/07/2010 02:16:01 PM 730 Views
Re: Not the same individual - 24/07/2010 06:07:10 PM 622 Views
Aww Dom. I really hoped you were on the same page.. - 25/07/2010 09:38:35 AM 919 Views

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