Active Users:1112 Time:22/11/2024 11:17:22 PM
Au contraire. Mik Send a noteboard - 23/07/2010 11:23:09 AM
We know from RJ that there was a previous version of SH in TDR, when Ishy was still around, SH 0.5. ...
Exactly! When Ishy was around, there was a weaker version of a fade with special abilities!
Only after Ishy died, there is a stronger version Fade around.
In and by itself, that could be coincidence. But given the rest of the clues and hints, I seriously doubt that's the case.

What should also make you wonder, is the following;
Why was Ishamael the only Chosen to even know about the existence of SHv0.5? Why was SHvo.5 kept secret by Shai'tan except to Ishamael. Because Ishamael was -literally- part of that deal.

Let's take a closer look about the one 'project' in the early books where we know for 100% sure that Ishamael & "SHv0.5"
cooperated: Bors (Carridin).

- First, Carridin recieves orders from Ba'alzamon in the prologue of TGH. Two funny details about that prologue: (1) Ba'alzamon is a burned man (wounded) hovering above a fade! Talk about a hint!.
(2) Carridin thinks to himself at one time "how his mind could understand to Myrddraal cowering in the figures shadow "without splitting". That's just brilliant RJ humor for you.
back on track though; Carridin get's his orders from Ishamael. Right? Right!

Day 340 / Saban-11; (0 days)
- Then, in the prologue of TDR Carridin is visited by SHv0.5.
SHv0.5 knows the orders of Carridin given by Ishamael. (finding and killing Rand & work to be done on Almoth Plain were orders from Ishamael, refered to by SHv0.5). At the very least, this proves that Ishamael & SHv0.5 work together very closely.
Right? Right!
- Carridin is ordered by a SHv0.5 to kill Rand within a month.

Day 368 / Aine-11; (+28 days, 1 month after promise)
- Jaichim Carridin's sister, Dealda, is carried off from her bridal feast by a Myrddraal.

Day 396 / Adar-11; (+56 days, 2 months after promise)
- Jaichim Carridin's cousin is found skinned alive in his bedchamber.

Day 422 / Saven-9; (+82 days, almost 3 months after promise)
- Ishamael dies.

Day 452 / Amadaine-11; (+112 days, exactly 4 months after promise)
- Carridin thinks about two family members that died two and three months ago. No other family member has died yet for ‘2 whole months’. He should have heard of a third family death by now, because it should have happened 28 days earlier and there is still plenty of family left;
- Later that same day, he frantically tells Liandrin he still has ‘cousins, nephews, nieces and another sister’, so that’s at least 7 more months he can survive on ‘borrowed time’.

It’s very odd that around the same time that Ishamael was killed, the killing of Carridins family members stops! If SHv0.5 was a completely separate being, why didn’t the killing of Carridins family continue?
SHv0.5 made that promise to Carridin.
SHv0.5 made sure the first two family members were killed exactly as promised!

Day 652 / Taisham-14; (+312 days, little over 11 months after promise)
- Sammael tells Carridin his last family member (Vanora) died ‘recently’. Sammael says that someone is making sure at least some of Ishamaels commands are still carries out.
According to the Myrddraals promise, it should have happened 4 days earlier; exactly at the 11 month mark. We can conclude Carridin had a total of 10 family members that ‘shared his blood’.

- Apart from that weird hiatus in the murders of Carridins family around the time of Ishamaels dying, the murdering has taken place so that Vanora that died ‘recently’ was the last one to go.

Day 687 / Jumara-21; (+347 days, 12 months and one week have passed)
- Jaichim Carridin his time & family has ran out and he is killed as ordered by Moridin.

Let's add things up:
So first Ba’alzamon (a horribly burned man hovering above a Myrddraal) gives Carridin orders. SHv0.5 comes to threathen Carridin, fully aware of Ba’alzamons orders and SHv0.5 makes a promise to kill one of his blood-kin for every month that Rand lives. The promise is kept up until Ishamael dies and at the same time the killing stops for at least one month, perhaps two. Per Sammaels words halfway ACoS, we know that someone had been making sure that at least some of Ishamaels orders have been carries out up until then. (Sammael is referring to the killing of Carridins relatives, so Ishamael must have been fully aware of what SHv0.5 promised Carridin) Finally, it is Moridin that keeps SHv0.5 its promise and orders Carridins death.
Also take into consideration that none of the Chosen knew of SHv0.5’s existence, prior to LOC, whereas Ishamael has always known about it’s existence. Of course Ishamael did know; him and SHv0.5 were always linked, part of one and the same being.
Shai’tan deliberately kept it from all the other Chosen, because if that’s what it takes to become Nae’Blis, noone would want to be half a step below the Dark One.

Concluding, I think RJ's remark that the fade in the prologue of TDR visiting Carridin strengthens my case that Ishamael has always been linked to a fade somehow.


...we also have a SH PoV, where he spies on Sammael & Graendal, muses on his limitations and states that he is a Myrddraal (though a special one) and can't channel the OP (but use the TP)
Erm. What's your point? How does this disprove a Slayer-like connection to Moridin? That we know Shaidar Haran is a special Myrddraal that can channel is a point in my favor I think;
To be able to channel you need a "living mind". Where do you think Shaidar Haran gets his living mind from? (TEotW, Chapter 18 - The Caemlyn Road)
How about from what's left of Ishamael mind..?

...RJ later elaborated on this, telling that the DO projected his shadowy self into the body of a Myrddraal. SH is "the Dark One in shadowy form" and this all the time ("twenty-four/seven" as RJ put it). On the other hand, Moridin thinks of the DO as a separate being.
Like I said in my previous post; think Slayer.

Slayer is one being, yet it shares two seperate minds (Isam & Luc) that can think of eachother as being seperate indivuduals with their own feelings/ emotion/ likes & dislikes. Isam isn't Luc. Luc isn't Isam. Yet both are fused together in Slayer. one of the two thinks at any given time, yet they share eachothers memories.

I see the same happening in the Nae'Blis.
Just like Slayer (Isam & Luc fused together) is 24/7, so is the Nae'Blis (Moridin & Shaidar Haran fused together) 24/7.
In that quote you refer to by RJ, RJ specifically refers to a question about Shaidar Haran as "this creature".
Why didn't het just call it "this Myrddraal"...?







Mik ~ Ishamaels halfmad 'brother'

Death dances in my footsteps....
Reply to message
Moridin & Shadar Haran - 22/07/2010 08:14:27 PM 1546 Views
No... - 22/07/2010 08:22:52 PM 935 Views
Re: No... - 22/07/2010 09:31:35 PM 848 Views
Re: No...(en garde, Etzellius Maximus!) - 23/07/2010 08:38:26 AM 862 Views
Well, I already talked more about it below - 23/07/2010 09:17:10 AM 958 Views
Re: Well, I already talked more about it below - 23/07/2010 11:29:08 AM 801 Views
Yup, I think they are one and the same. - 23/07/2010 08:21:20 AM 1099 Views
This idea is hardly vindicable - 23/07/2010 09:12:14 AM 852 Views
Au contraire. - 23/07/2010 11:23:09 AM 949 Views
But why... - 23/07/2010 11:32:25 AM 808 Views
Re: But why... - 23/07/2010 12:01:00 PM 840 Views
Again. RJ fooled you. - 23/07/2010 12:15:26 PM 852 Views
I think it would have to work this way: - 23/07/2010 03:10:59 PM 795 Views
Your reasoning falls apart right at the start, even though there is some truth to the rest, I think. - 23/07/2010 04:22:22 PM 893 Views
Um not quite - 25/07/2010 05:47:22 AM 754 Views
Hehehe. True, but the mental image still helps. - 25/07/2010 08:29:18 AM 988 Views
Re: Hehehe. True, but the mental image still helps. - 25/07/2010 08:32:10 AM 1018 Views
I think your evidence is pretty weak... - 26/07/2010 10:14:01 AM 712 Views
Why don't you answer some of the issues I raised then, instead of keeping it vague..? - 26/07/2010 11:58:02 AM 818 Views
Re: Why don't you answer some of the issues I raised then, instead of keeping it vague..? - 26/07/2010 12:18:51 PM 811 Views
Re: Why don't you answer some of the issues I raised then, instead of keeping it vague..? - 26/07/2010 12:43:53 PM 764 Views
Frankly, I don't see any similarity... - 26/07/2010 01:57:56 PM 834 Views
Re: Frankly, I don't see any similarity... - 26/07/2010 04:09:52 PM 684 Views
The problem is... - 26/07/2010 04:27:50 PM 640 Views
No problem at all, but your unwillingness to accept the possibilty after all these years. - 27/07/2010 11:38:10 AM 752 Views
I already answered all this... - 27/07/2010 11:46:36 AM 767 Views
Yeah. And as proven earlier your answers are flat-out wrong. - 27/07/2010 01:17:36 PM 872 Views
I think we have to agree to disagree - 27/07/2010 01:34:34 PM 707 Views
Agreed then. - 27/07/2010 02:03:52 PM 856 Views
Thanks for those answers. Here's how wrong they actually are: - 26/07/2010 01:54:44 PM 793 Views
No problem - 26/07/2010 02:30:45 PM 841 Views
Why does that scene matter? - 26/07/2010 04:16:33 PM 728 Views
Dunno, you have to ask Mik about this. *NM* - 26/07/2010 04:23:19 PM 402 Views
Why the half answer? Here's my full answer and the questions you missed..again.. - 26/07/2010 05:14:00 PM 920 Views
Just to understand you correctly... - 26/07/2010 05:33:46 PM 759 Views
Sure..I'll answer your questions again.. "quid pro quo"? - 27/07/2010 12:43:21 PM 836 Views
Well, kudos to you, if that idea turns out to be right - 27/07/2010 01:27:05 PM 801 Views
Re: Well, kudos to you, if that idea turns out to be right - 27/07/2010 01:56:32 PM 692 Views
The DO has control over Moridin... - 27/07/2010 02:04:50 PM 648 Views
Uhh. Thanks ..I guess. - 27/07/2010 01:57:38 PM 861 Views
I almost want the theory to be true, but one quick thing: - 26/07/2010 03:53:04 PM 728 Views
Re: I almost want the theory to be true, but one quick thing: - 26/07/2010 04:18:40 PM 636 Views
True, but if they're ordering other people to do it anyway... - 26/07/2010 04:51:18 PM 672 Views
One should also remember... - 26/07/2010 05:06:36 PM 669 Views
Eh? - 26/07/2010 05:30:20 PM 692 Views
But that the killing stopped, doesn't mean at all that Moridin and SH are one creature. *NM* - 26/07/2010 05:35:02 PM 744 Views
Give me a better reason? Why did RJ make the timing fit and hid it so far apart? - 26/07/2010 05:36:28 PM 777 Views
I think... - 26/07/2010 05:48:21 PM 594 Views
Re: I almost want the theory to be true, but one quick thing: - 26/07/2010 05:22:46 PM 836 Views
Re: This idea is hardly vindicable - 27/07/2010 04:07:53 PM 710 Views
= - Oh and has anyone given thought to Hopper = Bela? - 27/07/2010 09:17:18 PM 642 Views
Thanks! *bows and tips wide-brimmed hat* - 28/07/2010 07:54:05 AM 870 Views
Not the same individual - 24/07/2010 02:16:01 PM 717 Views
Re: Not the same individual - 24/07/2010 06:07:10 PM 608 Views
Aww Dom. I really hoped you were on the same page.. - 25/07/2010 09:38:35 AM 906 Views

Reply to Message